Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2004
Mona Kuhn technique
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Jytzel - 12 Aug 2004 02:19 GMT I came across Mona Kuhn´s gallery and I´m really impressed by the tonality. I´m really interested in knowing what kind of technique to produce that kind of tone separation..., is it Pyro? Any ideas.
check the link: http://www.photoeye.com/gallery/forms/index.cfm?image=1&id=78206&imagePosition=1 &Door=1&Portfolio=Portfolio1&Gallery=1&Page=
Richard Knoppow - 12 Aug 2004 12:54 GMT > I came across Mona Kuhn?s gallery and I?m really impressed by the
> tonality. I?m really interested in knowing what kind of technique to
> produce that kind of tone separation..., is it Pyro? Any ideas. > > check the link: http://www.photoeye.com/gallery/forms/index.cfm?image=1&id=78206&imagePosition=1 &Door=1&Portfolio=Portfolio1&Gallery=1&Page=
Its almost impossible to tell from a web site. The images will have been modified by the scanning process and at several other stages including my monitor. To me they look as though they are just excellent prints from good negatives. Its not necessary to use any trick to get good tonal rendition in a print but I've seen enough awful prints to know that many find it difficult. Pyro developer has no magic. Supposedly, when used with variable contrast paper the stain image tends to reduce the contast of the highlights. This may be desirable for some images but will result in flat looking prints for others. On graded paper the stain simply reinforces the silver image since it is opaque to the blue light to which these papers are mainly sensitive. Exactly the same tone rendition can be gotten with other, non staining, developers. I've seen Kuhn's work before, I think I've even seen actual prints in local galleries, but don't remember them very well. Likely, the prints are toned for image protection although there is nothing on the web site to indicate that. At the prices asked for the prints should be made to the best archival standards possible. Do you live someplace where you can see actual photographic prints by good photographers? If so it will be helpful in knowing the limits of the process and judging your own work.
jjs - 12 Aug 2004 13:46 GMT > I came across Mona Kuhn?s gallery and I?m really impressed > by the tonality. I?m really interested in knowing what kind of > technique to produce that kind of tone separation..., is it Pyro? Any > ideas. My two-bits worth: I see no need for Pyro or anything like it in those images. The harshest light seems to be in "Sombra, 1999", but it's still well modulated. (An aside, I want to believe the scans are not an adequate representation of the tones of the original prints.)
IMHO, Kunh's work shown there is premature. Needs paring.
Michael Scarpitti - 12 Aug 2004 14:36 GMT > I came across Mona Kuhn´s gallery and I´m really impressed by the > tonality. I´m really interested in knowing what kind of technique to > produce that kind of tone separation..., is it Pyro? Any ideas. > > check the link: > http://www.photoeye.com/gallery/forms/index.cfm?image=1&id=78206&imagePosition=1 &Door=1&Portfolio=Portfolio1&Gallery=1&Page= I'm not sure there's anything unusual about here work. Just looks like good-quality Hasselblad work to me. You have to start with good lenses first.
Jytzel - 12 Aug 2004 21:54 GMT > > I came across Mona Kuhn´s gallery and I´m really impressed by the > > tonality. I´m really interested in knowing what kind of technique to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > good-quality Hasselblad work to me. You have to start with good lenses > first. There is, the tonal separation is rather good.., creamy and smooth. It seems that we have a lot talents here on NG to be discovered......
Anyway, please forget about the original post.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 12 Aug 2004 22:15 GMT > > > Mona Kuhn > > I'm not sure there's anything unusual about her work > Tonal separation [tones are] creamy and smooth. Hmm, 'creamy and smooth' doesn't quite equate to 'tonal separation in my book. However:
The secret to both is big negatives and slow film. No funky developers, films or papers.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
PGG - 13 Aug 2004 18:56 GMT >> > > Mona Kuhn >> > I'm not sure there's anything unusual about her work [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The secret to both is big negatives and slow film. No > funky developers, films or papers. I think I've learned that. I never thought a 11x14 print from a 4x5 negative could exhibit grain. But with Fortepan 400 film, I see grain.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Aug 2004 19:54 GMT > I never thought a 11x14 print from a 4x5 > negative could exhibit grain. But with > Fortepan 400 film, I see grain. TMax-100, Microdol-X.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Richard Knoppow - 13 Aug 2004 00:52 GMT > mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message news:<2fd2ff8c.0408120536.78432db3@posting.google.com>...
> > > I came across Mona Kuhn?s gallery and I?m really impressed by the
> > > tonality. I?m really interested in knowing what kind of technique to
> > > produce that kind of tone separation..., is it Pyro? Any ideas. > > > > > > check the link: http://www.photoeye.com/gallery/forms/index.cfm?image=1&id=78206&imagePosition=1 &Door=1&Portfolio=Portfolio1&Gallery=1&Page=
> > I'm not sure there's anything unusual about here work. Just looks like > > good-quality Hasselblad work to me. You have to start with good lenses [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Anyway, please forget about the original post. I never know what exactly is meant by tonal separation. Some seem to mean high contrast, others low contrast, others just having a good gray scale. In most images it is the mid-gray tones which are the most important. These are strongly affected by the characteristic curve of the film and perhaps a little by the developer. Some films have a long linear relationship between expsoure and density, 100T-Max and 400T-Max are examples, other films have an upward sweeping curve, Tri-X sheet film is an example of this type as were many older "portrait" films. If one makes negatives of the same subject and prints them for the same shadow and highlight points the upward sweeping film will produce darker mid tones than the straight line film. This is effective for some subjects and not for others. For some subjects having the mid tones lighter is more appropriate. Choice of printing paper also affects the rendition. Some modern papers have a long toe, meant to lower the contast of the highlights. Ilford's papers seem to be expecially noticable this way although Kodak does it on some papers. The idea is to make it easier to get unblocked highlights from modern films which are capable of very high densities. Such paper can result in somewhat distorted mid tones when the negative does not need the highlight compression. To me Agfa papers have the best "normal" tonal rendition. Of course, there is no technical data on Mona Kuhn's web site. It really doesn't matter how the images were made if you like them but without the data its impossible to guess at how they were made. My own impression from the web pictures is that they are just good quality conventional prints. My earlier remarks about seeing actual high quality prints is that digital images can be manipulated to such a degree that one can not always tell much about the originals. The quality of a good conventional "silver-gelatin" print can be superb but many never see examples of how good the quality can be so may be satisfied with less than this in their own work. The photographic process was developed to make it easy to use and to be easy to get good quality. B&W should really not be much more difficult than using a Xerox machine. BUT, to get good quality you must follow manufacturers recommendations and avoid exotic processes or techniques. This may seem like heresy but it really isn't. When I was learning photography in about junior highschool I had a couple of mentors. They were knowlegible and meant well but I discovered much later that much of what they told me and led me to do was plain wrong. I suffered much frustration at that time because I did not understand the importance of controlling negative contrast and because I was using a rather off the wall developer. It turns out that the developer probably caused me to have a lot of bad negatives. I drifted away from photography during my college years but came back to it later. When I did I decided to begin over. I bought all standard chemicals, D-76 and Dektol, and followed the instructions. Voila, perfect prints! Well not all of them, but I did not have the trouble I had earlier. I used very similar equipment, about the only significant improvment was a better enlarging lens but the one I had in highschool was not a bad one. It is amazing to me how much mis-information there is in photography, it just abounds. The fact is that it is a very forgiving process so some sort of image will be gotten almost regardless of what one does. However, its not difficult to get really good quality. If you follow the directions in Kodak's little instruction books it will happen. I think the images on Mona Kuhn's wet site are very good technically, their artistic merit is beyond my competence. I wish I could ask for and get a couple of thousand bucks for any of my images:-)
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Michael Scarpitti - 13 Aug 2004 16:57 GMT > > mikescarpitti@yahoo.com (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in > message [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > I never know what exactly is meant by tonal separation. To different people it means different things. For me, it means ideal mid-tone contrast, above all.
> Some seem to mean high contrast, others low contrast, others > just having a good gray scale. In most images it is the > mid-gray tones which are the most important. Absolutely, and this is completely ignored in zs dogma.
> These are > strongly affected by the characteristic curve of the film [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > is effective for some subjects and not for others. For some > subjects having the mid tones lighter is more appropriate. Especially a problem with outdoor work where foliage is concerned. It tends to reproduce too dark anyway, when no filter is used.
> Choice of printing paper also affects the rendition. Some > modern papers have a long toe, meant to lower the contast of > the highlights. Ilford's papers seem to be expecially > noticable this way although Kodak does it on some papers. I am not aware of this.
> The idea is to make it easier to get unblocked highlights > from modern films which are capable of very high densities. > Such paper can result in somewhat distorted mid tones when > the negative does not need the highlight compression. To me > Agfa papers have the best "normal" tonal rendition. I could never get good prints on Brovira with a condenser enlarger. The highlights simply would not print at all. All I got was blank white.
> Of course, there is no technical data on Mona Kuhn's web > site. It really doesn't matter how the images were made if > you like them but without the data its impossible to guess > at how they were made. My own impression from the web > pictures is that they are just good quality conventional > prints. Exactly.
> My earlier remarks about seeing actual high quality > prints is that digital images can be manipulated to such a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to get good quality you must follow manufacturers > recommendations and avoid exotic processes or techniques. Precisely. The widespread belief regarding the 'necessity' of using zs is a prime example.
> This may seem like heresy but it really isn't. When I was > learning photography in about junior highschool I had a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > It is amazing to me how much mis-information there is in > photography, it just abounds. Truly so. Perhaps because it appeals to the non-academic types, who have never had much class work in science, math, or physics.
> The fact is that it is a very > forgiving process so some sort of image will be gotten [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > wish I could ask for and get a couple of thousand bucks for > any of my images:-) jjs - 13 Aug 2004 17:45 GMT > [...] > Especially a problem with outdoor work where foliage is concerned. It > tends to reproduce too dark anyway, when no filter is used. Depends in part on the film you use; some films are more insensitive to green than others. This subjects gets quite complicated because one has to consider the other colors in the picture frame, and our impressionistic human interpretation of colors.
> I could never get good prints on Brovira with a condenser enlarger. > The highlights simply would not print at all. All I got was blank > white. I find that so very strange, unless Brovira has changed. The last time I used it was in the seventies where all we used was Agfa Brovira graded papers - for example BS 111 (#3 "Special extra white glossy") dried matt. I used literally thousands of sheets of this paper and have a lot of very good detailed highlights, and plenty with just off-base-white highlight images. But I also used careful exposure/development film adjustments. And I was a very good printer, too. I'm still trying to catch up to where I was then.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Aug 2004 19:53 GMT > And I was a very good printer, too. > I'm still trying to catch up to where I was then. Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.
 Signature Robert Zimmerman Lost somewhere in the north country
Michael Scarpitti - 14 Aug 2004 22:52 GMT > > [...] > > Especially a problem with outdoor work where foliage is concerned. It [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I find that so very strange, unless Brovira has changed. To the best of my knowledge it is no longer made.
> The last time I > used it was in the seventies where all we used was Agfa Brovira graded [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But I also used careful exposure/development film adjustments. And I was a > very good printer, too. I'm still trying to catch up to where I was then. What kind of enlarger did you use?
I tried various grades of Brovira, and all kinds of developers, but nothing worked. No highlights. Not at all.
jjs - 14 Aug 2004 22:56 GMT > > "Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > I find that so very strange, unless Brovira has changed. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > What kind of enlarger did you use? It was all 35mm and the enlarger was a Leitz Focomat with either a Nikkor 2.8 or a Focotar - 40mm as I recall.
PGG - 13 Aug 2004 17:31 GMT <snip>
> The photographic process was developed to make it easy to > use and to be easy to get good quality. B&W should really [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > improvment was a better enlarging lens but the one I had in > highschool was not a bad one. I'd love to hear what you use personally right now. Film, developer, camera, lenses, any special techniques and etc!!
Do you adjust contrast with development?
How do you develop? After struggling, I'm finally getting consistent negatives with trays. I started with an 8x10 color processing tube. Had some success and failures. Being that I am just starting out, there are so many variables that I didn't know where my problem was. But I realized that the ridges aren't good enough to hold the negative against the cylinder wall (its a Chromega drum...not Unicolor). After Googling, I went to the hardware store and bought PVC and caps. White was my only choice so I spray-painted black. Well they leak and my negatives didn't turn out for some reason. I think because they were leaky, I didn't agitate as much as I should of. Back to trays...
Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Aug 2004 19:47 GMT PGG:
> I'd love to hear what you use personally right now. Film, developer, > camera, lenses, any special techniques and etc!! I'll take that as an open challenge:
Film:
Tech Pan TMX-100 Kodachrome 64
Film Developer:
Technidol Microdol-X
Paper:
Oriental graded
Paper developer:
Dektol
Camera(s):
Sinar X Leica M5 Nikon F & FM series, various Yashica T4, multiple Pacemaker Graphic Mamiya Universal Hasselblad 500 Agfa Solina Empire Baby
Lenses:
Rodenstock Sironar, Grandagon & Geronar Nikkor SW, M & AI/AIS/AF Schnieder Angulon Summicron Elmar Summar(-on ?) Hektor Zeiss Tessar & Sonar Ektar Agfa Apotar Optical Crystal (the _original_, ACCEPT NO IMITATIONS) Enlargers:
Beseler 45MX Leitz Valoy Special techniques:
Follow the instructions
& Etc.:
Pray regularly. God knows, He needs the encouragement.
* * *
> Do you adjust contrast with development? Almost never.
> How do you develop? Er, with developer? -- I take it you meant to inquire of what hardware I use: SS, Jobo & Patterson (127 only) tanks
> After struggling, Man is born to struggle.
> I'm finally getting consistent negatives with trays. I started with kitchen bowls. Moved up to Pyrex baking dishes. Then my Mother entered the darkroom...
> I started with an 8x10 color processing tube. Bourgeois.
> Had some success and failures. Tautology.
> Being that I am just starting out And I'm ending up.
> there are so many variables Only two: Man's stupidity and God's patience. So far as known they are both infinite.
> that I didn't know where my problem was. Not in the stars but in ourselves.
> But I realized that the ridges aren't good enough to hold the > negative against the cylinder wall (its a Chromega drum... > not Unicolor). Never tried it. The base for these drums work great with Jobo tanks, though. This annoys the Jobo rep.
> After Googling, I went to the hardware store and bought PVC and > caps. White was my only choice so I spray-painted black. Well > they leak and my negatives didn't turn out for some reason. > I think because they were leaky, I didn't agitate as much as I should of. I would suggest getting a Jobo drum, the old 4x5 spiral reels and a Unicolor motor base. Used, of course. My experience is I would be better off flipping burgers for bucks to pay for the right stuff.
> Back to trays... ... don't trim your fingernails too short.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
PGG - 13 Aug 2004 19:58 GMT
> I'll take that as an open challenge: Sure! I'm certainly interested to hear what others use...
> Film: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Agfa Solina > Empire Baby Scary...because at 27 years old, I fear what my collection will be in 20 years!
<snip>
>> Do you adjust contrast with development? > > Almost never. Scarpitti would be proud. Even with 4x5?
<snip>
> I would suggest getting a Jobo drum, the old 4x5 spiral reels and > a Unicolor motor base. Used, of course. My experience is I would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ... don't trim your fingernails too short. I wear vinyl gloves if thats what you mean...
jjs - 13 Aug 2004 21:32 GMT PGG:
> I'd love to hear what you use personally right now. Film, developer, > camera, lenses, any special techniques and etc!! 'blad, Linhof 4x5, Sinar 4x5
Tri-X, Agfa 100, Efke 25, 100 Rodinal all the way.
Jytzel - 14 Aug 2004 02:02 GMT Thank you Richard,
I agree you completel; I agree about Ilford paper, and I never liked them that much. I think Kuhn's work is fine but I'm really impressed by the quality. The images has very good tonality (rich, smooth mid-tones-to-highlights.) It seems that linear curve film- yes it could be a pulled Tmax in something like microdol. I think that Pyro produces that kind of curve with coventional films; it was the closest I got to those images and printed on VC paper- yet was grainy. But I can't really believe it's an old technology film in one of the conventional developers like D-76.... I don't know!
J.
>> I never know what exactly is meant by tonal separation. > Some seem to mean high contrast, others low contrast, others [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > wish I could ask for and get a couple of thousand bucks for > any of my images:-) Richard Knoppow - 14 Aug 2004 12:10 GMT > Thank you Richard, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > J. Long thread snipped...
D-76 is close to being an optimum developer for a lot of films. It is also pretty fool proof. There are a lot of good films on the market although some have been recently discontinued at lest in some sizes. The slower the film the more likely they are to give you smooth tonal rendition. There are several medium speed films in 120 roll films, Agfa APX 100, Ilford FP-4+, or Kodak Plus-X all do well. Agfa is the coarsest grain, Plus-X the finest of the group, not a huge difference. To start try any of the above and a developer like D-76 diluted 1:1 or Xtol. I prefer Agfa papers for printing and Kodak second. I've used Ilford paper in the past but don't like their current RC papers. There are good print developers made by all of the big three. Dektol is of course the old standby. For somewhat more neutral tones try Ilford Bromophen. Agfa makes the only Phenidone-Ascorbic acid print developer I know of; Neutol Plus. Process the film according to the instructions. Be careful of agitation techniques, Kodak recommends 5 seconds every 30 seconds, Ilford 10 seconds once a minute. They are not quite the same so follow the agitation given with the time/temperature chart you are using. Even though B&W is not as critical of temperature as color it is still important to control the temperature if you want predictible and repeatable development. The developer temperature should be within on F degree of the expected temperature. You will note the charts are usualy in 2 F degree steps which tells you that amount of change makes a significant difference. I use an electronic thermometer which is calibrated to an accuracy of about 1/2 degree F. Mine is a CheckTemp made by Hanna Instruments and cost around $30 US. For roll film I use old Nikor stainless steel tanks. I also have a rare Nikor sheet film tank which I use for 4x5. I also have used tray development and print drums for sheet film. Trays are fine for small amounts but I am not the most skillful film shuffler. T-Max films are excellent but are more sensitive to variations in development. To get a change in contrast of one paper grade most films need a change of about 33% in time, T-Max will change taht much in 20% to 25% change in time. The film is also more sensitive to agitation and to temperature. If you work carefully you will not have problems with excessive contrast. Kodak charts are for contrast suitable for contact printing and diffusion enlarging onto Grade 2 paper. In a condenser enlarger these negatives will print correctly on Grade 1 paper. If you want to print on Grade 2 you have to reduce the development time as indicated above and decrease film speed to about 3/4 of the ISO speed. Ilford gives times and speeds for a compromise contrast between diffusion and condenser printing. Agfa seems to use different contrasts for different charts so you have to look carefully. Agfa also uses "gamma" a measure of contrast that is not often used now for pictorial negatives so the numbers are not directly comparable to those published by either Kodak (contrast index) or Ilford (average gradient). In any case, if you follow directions you should be able to figure out what to do to adjust the negative contrast, or for that matter, if they need adjustment. Because paper is developed to "completion" that is, to the highest density and contrast it is capable of, development is less critical than for negatives. However there IS a change in density with change in development time. To a very limited degree variations in print development can be used to compensate for small variations in exposure. Once you reach full devlopment there is little change in the contrast of papers despite the existence of low contrast developers (they are just slower) and variable contrast developers (good for maybe half a grade). I really like variable contast paper because I can adjust to get the best print from each negative. One can do this with graded paper also but then you need to stock a lot of paper. While any VC filter set will work with any VC paper the contrast grades and differences and exposure compensation (so called constant speed) will be right only for the set supplied by the paper manufacturer. If you are using a color head each manufacturer will supply you with a chart showing the correct settings to obtain the contrast you want. Textured papers will not give you as much conrast as glossy because the light scattered from the surface washes out the deep shadows. I develop prints for around 90 seconds to 2 minutes, depending on the paper. For fiber base paper I sometimes develop for as long as 3 minutes but like to expose so that development is complete in around 2 minutes (assuming a Dektol or Bromophen type developer). Get the best enlarging lenses you can afford. With this exception expensive darkroom equipment is not necessary (although its nice to have). I don't know what else to tell you. There just isn't any magic. Time and temperature should be accurate, agitation consistent, and chemicals fresh. Keep things clean. I've left out cameras. Film is relativly tollerant of overexposure, not very tollerant of underexposure. Cameras should have reasonably accurate shutters (much better in modern cameras than in the past) and good lenses (not as much better as you would think). Keep records in the darkroom. Note how the prints look when wet and look at them again the next day when they are good and dry. Most papers "dry down" or change contrast and density between wet and dry. This can be compensated for to some extent but you must learn what the paper does. This is turning into a book so I better quit now.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
_PGG_ - 15 Aug 2004 02:00 GMT <book post snipped :) >
> This is turning into a book so I better quit now. But it is so interesting!! Thanks for all the great information.
Just one thing: You say to "follow the instructions". Are you a true follower of the zone system in that you always develop your negatives to print at Grade 2? I'm just trying to get a feel whether or not I should carry out development tests, or just rely on VC paper (and of course expose my shadows appropriately).
Bogdan Karasek - 15 Aug 2004 05:54 GMT dry. This can be compensated for to
> some extent but you must learn what the paper does. > This is turning into a book so I better quit now. Hi,
I'm sure that if we went through the archives, there is enough material already for a book. Now the hard part, editing. ;-)
Bogdan
 Signature __________________________________________________________________ Bogdan Karasek Montréal, Québec e-mail: bkarasek@videotron.ca Canada
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen" "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence" Ludwig Wittgenstein ________________________________________________________________
Nicholas O. Lindan - 14 Aug 2004 15:42 GMT > ... I can't really believe it's an old technology film > in one of the conventional developers like D-76.... > I don't know! Why not?
Weston Adams Evans Lange Steiglitz Bourke-White Karsh Avedon Penn ...
The answer is in neither the developer, nor the film, nor the paper, nor the camera, nor the lens ....
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Jytzel - 15 Aug 2004 01:43 GMT > > ... I can't really believe it's an old technology film > > in one of the conventional developers like D-76.... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The answer is in neither the developer, nor the film, nor > the paper, nor the camera, nor the lens .... But their work was still different from Kuhn´s
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