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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2004fixing fiber paper using hypo
Hello, I have used only RC paper so far and have been using FX-24 for both film and paper. I now have fiber paper(Ilford Multigrade warmtone as well as normal tone) and want to do as much "archival processing" as possible. I read that Ilford recommends rapid fixer for paper so that the paper base does not absorb too much hypo. I can not get Ammonium thiosulfate here in India, so have to use only Hypo. Please suggest how I can fix fiber paper using Hypo(if possible with FX-24 itself) for maximum image permanence. Thanks for any help, Sreenath > Hello, I have used only RC paper so far and have been using FX-24 for > both film and paper. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Please suggest how I can fix fiber paper using Hypo(if possible with > FX-24 itself) for maximum image permanence. First of all, many cannot use the Ilford fixing method because their papers do not fix fast enough. I am a bit surprised you cannot get any rapid fixer at all in India. Kodak's rapid fix, or Ilfords may well be available. If not, you could mix a rapid fixer if you can get ammonium sulfate or ammonium chloride. Look up Kodak's fixers F7 and F9 for the formulae. These will not be as fast as an ammonium thiosulphate fixer, but faster than normal F5 or F6.  Signature.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 08:40:00 up 2 days, 18:20, 5 users, load average: 4.23, 4.20, 4.18 Could you get fixers (from Agfa, etc) used in color processing? They are all rapid fixers, but it must be a fixer, not stabilizing solution (also used by many 1 hour labs). Jorge > Hello, > I have used only RC paper so far and have been using FX-24 for both [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks for any help, > Sreenath > Hello, > I have used only RC paper so far and have been using FX-24 for both [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks for any help, > Sreenath The difference is in the time it takes to fix the paper. The Ilford method works best if fixing time can be keep to no more than 30 seconds. Most papers take longer than this even in rapid fixer at film dilution. At some point the rapid fixing method simply no longer makes sense. Sodium thiosulfate fixer does a good job. Most fiber papers will fix out as rapidly as RC paper, that is in about 2 minutes. Use a two bath fixing set-up and fix for half the time in each. Rinse the paper for a minute and then treat in a sulfite wash aid like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent. If you must mix your own a similar bath is: Buffered Sulfite wash aid Stock Solution Water 740.0 ml Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 100.0 grams Sodium bisulfite or sodium metabisulfite 25.0 grams Citric Acid 5.0 grams EDTA Tetra-Sodium salt 5.0 grams Water to make 1.0 liter For use dilute 1 part stock to 4 parts water. If the bath is to be used only once the Citric acid and EDTA can be left out. Treat double weight prints in this for about 3 minutes and wash for about 20 minutes. I wonder if FX-24 is a variation of Kodak F-24, a non-hardening, low odor, sodium thiosulfate fixer. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com All, Thanks for the responses. BTW, it is F-24, not FX-24. I use F-24, the formula with hypo, sodium bisulfite and sodium sulfite. Thanks, Sreenath > > Hello, > > I have used only RC paper so far and have been using FX-24 [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > I wonder if FX-24 is a variation of Kodak F-24, a > non-hardening, low odor, sodium thiosulfate fixer. I can get Ammonium chloride easily. I see from newsgroup postings that the formula for F-7 fixer is : Water, about 1250F (500C) 600 ml Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate 360 g Ammonium chloride 50 g Sodium sulfite, desiccated 15 g Acetic acid, 28% 48 ml Boric acid, crystals 7.5 g Potassium alum 15 g Cold water to make 1.0 liter If I don't want the hardner, will the following formula do? (Non hardening version of Kodak Rapid Fixing Bath F-7) Water, about 1250F (500C) 600 ml Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate 360 g Ammonium chloride 50 g Sodium sulfite, desiccated 15 g Cold water to make 1.0 liter Is acetic acid necessary? Could sodium bisulfite be used as an alternative to Acetic acid? Is the temperature of water right? I have always used water without heating, but the formula above specifies 125 degree Farenheit. Thanks for the help, Sreenath -- some lines deleted from previous posts --- > > Hello, > Sodium thiosulfate fixer does a good job. Most fiber [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I wonder if FX-24 is a variation of Kodak F-24, a > non-hardening, low odor, sodium thiosulfate fixer. I use a formula very much similar to yours non hardening, and a water stop bath (I place papers in about 2L of water for some 30s with agitation). This way, acetic acid or the like is not necessary. Jorge > I can get Ammonium chloride easily. I see from newsgroup postings that > the formula for F-7 fixer is : [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Thanks for the help, > Sreenath Thanks for the information. I have been using sodium bisulfite stop bath for both film and paper. If I can get away without a stop bath, at least for paper, one less thing to deal with! -Sreenath > I use a formula very much similar to yours non hardening, and a water > stop bath (I place papers in about 2L of water for some 30s with [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks for the help, > > Sreenath > Thanks for the information. > I have been using sodium bisulfite stop bath for both film and paper. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Jorge Be careful of water baths in place of stop baths. Since there is no acid in the fixer development can continue in it if any developer is carried over in the film or paper. The water stop should be a fairly through rinse. The amount of sulfite in your formula is enough to stop any staining from carried over developer but its still best to wash it out as much as possible. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com Richard Since papers should be fully developed, I fail to see the risks of continuing development in the fixer, and if the fixer is not acidic, any alkali carryover shall not do any harm also. Could you pls comment? Jorge "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:2m6lrtFjo67mU2 @uni-berlin.de: > Be careful of water baths in place of stop baths. Since > there is no acid in the fixer development can continue in it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > any staining from carried over developer but its still best > to wash it out as much as possible. > Richard > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jorge Paper is not really fully deveoped. It is _nearly_ fully developed so if there is much continued developement in the rinse or fixing bath it can change the density of the print. I think Ammonium fixer works so quickly that this is probably not a real issue. Carried over alkali will not hurt the fixing bath. However, if there is not enough sulfite in the fixer the developer can produce reaction products which will leave stains on the print. Also, if there is enough dissolved silver in the bath the carried over developer will react with it to produce metallic silver which can cause dichroic stains on the print. Where a sulfite wash aid is used alkaline fixers do not have any advantage in shorter washing times. The sulfite bath will adjust the gelatin pH to above its isoelectric point eliminating electronic binding of thiosulfate and fixer reaction products to the gelatin and image silver. It will also eliminate the "mordanting" effect of aluminum sulfate hardener. Neutral fixing baths are common in color processing. A water rinse preceding the fixing bath is all that is used but it is a short running water wash not just a dip in a tray of re-used water. The original poster should check to see if Agfa chemistry is available in his country. If so, Agfa Universal fixer is a good, neutral pH, non hardening rapid fixer. Actually any C-41 fixer should do and may be available where B&W chemistry is hard to find. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > I can get Ammonium chloride easily. I see from newsgroup postings that > the formula for F-7 fixer is : [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Thanks for the help, > Sreenath The above should be work fine. Previous stuff snipped... Any hadening fixer can be made non-hardening by leaving out the hardener. Since the acid is there mainly for the hardener it can also be left out. Both Ammonium and Sodium Thiosulfate work regardless of pH. Fixer with Ammonium chloride and Sodium thiosulfate is faster than Sodium thiosulfate but not quite as fast as when made with Ammonium thiosulfate. Note that when neutral or alkaline Ammonium thiosulfate fixers no longer bleach the image. This is not usually a problem when fixing times are not extended but can affect warm tone paper especially if the paper is left in the fixer longer than necessary for fixing. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > If I don't want the hardner... Then all you need is sodium thiosulfate. In your shoes I'd add a small portion of sulfite or bisulfite for better keeping. I use S. or A. Thio. one-shot, very dilute; always fresh. Two baths for archival results. Dan > > Sodium thiosulfate fixer does a good job. Why in the heck would you need two baths when using it one-shot? Two bath hypo systems are used as protection against used up hypo. The only way one-shot hypo is going to get used up is if you made it too dilute. There is either enough hypo in it, or there is not. Your statement seems silly on the face of it. -- >>If I don't want the hardner... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >>> Sodium thiosulfate fixer does a good job. > Why in the heck would you need two baths when using it one-shot? Two bath hypo > systems are used as protection against used up hypo. The only way one-shot hypo [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > >>> Sodium thiosulfate fixer does a good job. You should not need two baths for one-shot fixing. I also worry about the "very dilute" fixer. Fixer depends on having a lot of free thiosulfate ions available. As it works the thiosulfate bonds the silver. It takes about three thiosulfate ions to convert one ion of silver halide. A very dilute bath may become exhausted to the point of not being able to complete the fixing process before even a single film or paper is fixed. Two baths might work better here. However, since a two bath system has a very large capacity for archival fixing when compared to a single bath it is probably more economical than using fixer one shot. Ammonium thiosulfate has much larger capacity than sodium thiosulfate especially for film. It is much less affected by Iodides from the film and generally by the amount of dissolved silver. There is a tendency for Ammonium Thiosulfate fixer (Rapid fixer) to dissolve metallic silver, bleaching the image, when film or paper is left in it too long but this effect takes place only when the fixer is acid, so is not a problem with neutral or alkaline rapid fixers. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > > If I don't want the hardner... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > Sodium thiosulfate fixer does a good job. About 5 grams of sulfite per liter is enough to preserve the thiosulfate (either kind) but increasing it to about 15 grams will add a safety factor to take care of the reaction products of carried over developer. Sulfite will give you a nearly neutral bath, bisulfite a slightly acid one. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com |
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