Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2004
Rodinal 1:100, sulfite & HP5+
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Lew - 06 Jul 2004 23:26 GMT I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f. -Lew
John - 07 Jul 2004 00:17 GMT >I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about >adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how >much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f. >-Lew Consider between 50 and 100g per liter of working developer solution.
John
Robert Vervoordt - 09 Jul 2004 03:57 GMT >>I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about >>adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >John OK. I used about 44 grams per liter of Sulfite in a working solution of Rodinal 1:100. I used it on everything from Pan-F , FP-4, Super Hypan, HP4, Tri-X to a load of rebranded emulsions of many origins.
It was nice. The speed was just about normal, the contrast was normal but with detail in the highlights and the grain was less. The sharpness didn't suffer much, either.
All in all it was a very comfortable developer for a lot of emulsions.
Balanced, I'd call it.
Dwelling on one or two aspects of a film/dev combo's results, especially when differences are hard to discern, can lead to solipsistic isolation.
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Mark A - 07 Jul 2004 03:08 GMT > I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about > adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how > much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f. > -Lew Putting sulfite in Rodinal is like putting ketchup on prime steak.
Donald Qualls - 07 Jul 2004 04:22 GMT >>I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about >>adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Putting sulfite in Rodinal is like putting ketchup on prime steak. Which is to say, while some might consider it boorish, if it gives you the flavor you like, go right ahead!
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Mark Rabiner - 08 Jul 2004 11:39 GMT On 7/6/04 8:22 PM, in article h0KGc.37073$XM6.276@attbi_s53, "Donald Qualls" <silent1@ix.netcom.com> typed:
>>> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about >>> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Which is to say, while some might consider it boorish, if it gives you > the flavor you like, go right ahead! I'm with you 100 percent on leaving the solvent out of the Rodinal. Goes against the grain. Which is supposed to be incredibly even and regular and sharp as a tack. And leaving the steak knives off of the steak. Using butter knifes instead. It the steak is any good it don¹t need no steak knife. Use the steak knives for cutting ice cold butter. And the hell with ketchup if you really want to ruin a steak put that 57 sauce on it or tobasco or Worstershire sauce. Exotic red sauces from days gone by! Otherwise known in my house as "red stuff".
Mark Rabiner Photography Portland Oregon http://rabinergroup.com/
Donald Qualls - 09 Jul 2004 04:05 GMT > And leaving the steak knives off of the steak. I prefer my steak to cut with a fork, but I usually can't afford steak that good. I'll settle for being able to chew it (with my very, very bad teeth) without undue effort.
> And the hell with ketchup if you really want to ruin a steak put that 57 > sauce on it or tobasco or Worstershire sauce. Exotic red sauces from days > gone by! > Otherwise known in my house as "red stuff". I generally use A-1, which is definitely not red. ;)
But to get back to photography, if you like Rodinal grain, you really should try Caffenol. Crisp, clean grain, still small enough to ignore in a 5x7 (from 35 mm Tri-X), and instead of a 1/3 to 2/3 stop loss of speed, about a 1/3 stop gain. And talk about low toxicity -- coffee and washing soda are the only ingredients other than water.
Try it with a cubic grain film (I don't yet know how it'll act on a T-grain) -- you'll be amazed.
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Lew - 09 Jul 2004 20:36 GMT Ok Mark: It's late in the day, I'm ready for a cup, and I know you're just dying to share. What's your exact formula, working dilution & time? -Lew
Donald Qualls - 10 Jul 2004 04:18 GMT > Ok Mark: > It's late in the day, I'm ready for a cup, and I know you're just dying > to share. What's your exact formula, working dilution & time? > -Lew Well, if you mean me (about Caffenol?), here it is -- this is based on an article by Roger Bunting from about 1996, but I got it from a thread on photo.net. The name "Caffenol" is mine; others have called it "Folgernol" or just coffee developer.
For each eight ounces of water:
2 tsp. Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda 4 (slight rounded) tsp. Folger's Coffee Crystals (or good copy of Folger's).
Mix at room temperature, stirring the soda until the solution is completely clear before adding the coffee, and stirring until the coffee is fully dissolved.
For Plus-X at EI 125, 25 minutes at 68 F For Tri-X (old or new) at EI 400, 30 minutes at 70 F
Stop with water, ten agitations per fill until the water poured off is clear. Fix with your regular fixer, no need to post-soak or otherwise take steps to increase stain.
Both yield negatives with significant base stain/fog, exceptional sharpness, detectable imagewise stain (higher contrast in blue light than in red), and about 1/3 stop increase in toe speed when scanned in white light. I haven't had a chance to print any of these yet -- don't have my darkroom set up, and won't for several months with an upcoming move interfering -- but would expect them to print like pyro or pyrocat negatives, and potentially to require reduced development to avoid excessive contrast in blue light (though this might be offset by the contrast filtering effect of the general stain).
The developing agent is believed to be either caffeic acid or its progenitor chlorogenic acid (if not both), not the caffeine -- in theory, Folger's Decaf should work, though I don't know anyone who's tried it. I'm told chlorogenic acid is present in many green fruits and leaves, so it's possible there may be other "organic" developers that could be made with extracts from plants -- but coffee is cheap, readily available in pre-extracted instant form, and you can drink it when you're not using it as developer (well, it's instant, so *you* might drink it, but I won't).
There's also a low contrast version (my own modification), suitable for Tech Pan, microfilms, and other contrast control situations. Simply cut the coffee crystals in half while keeping the washing soda the same, though you're generally on your own for starting times. General stain is nearly eliminated, though there is still some imagewise stain. For Imagelink HQ (very similar to Tech Pan in ways that matter) exposed at EI 50, I'd start with 30 minutes at 70 F, though you could use 20 minutes if you expose at EI 25. The negatives don't look pushed even at EI 50; again, there may be a small toe speed increase. The same time (30 minutes) can probably be used for Copex Rapid at EI 100, though I haven't tested enough to be certain.
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Donald Qualls - 07 Jul 2004 04:22 GMT > I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about > adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how > much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f. > -Lew I wouldn't suggest adding sulfite to Rodinal -- you'll defeat most of what makes Rodinal unique, which is its non-solvent nature. No sulfite is required for preservation of the developing agent, so the only thing you'll gain is its silver solvent action -- which, while it might result in gaining a small amount of toe speed, will also completely undo the acutance effects that give Rodinal its character.
If you feel you must, the amount would be between 10 g/L (minimum to see any effect) to about 65 g/L (maximum solvent effect when not required as a preservative).
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Lew - 07 Jul 2004 05:18 GMT I seem to recall reading that small amounts of sulfite are useful to prevent emulsion swelling and grain clumping without exerting any solvent effect at all. Microdol-x like formulas use 100g/l (I think), but I think I read that 10g/l is cool for what I'm after. -Lew
Donald Qualls - 08 Jul 2004 03:20 GMT > I seem to recall reading that small amounts of sulfite are useful to prevent > emulsion swelling and grain clumping without exerting any solvent effect at > all. Microdol-x like formulas use 100g/l (I think), but I think I read that > 10g/l is cool for what I'm after. I tried adding 10 g/L to HC-110 Dilution H, after reading in Anchell & Troop that HC-110 doesn't show a toe speed increase like most PQ acutance developers because of insufficient sulfite. I couldn't see any change, though it might require more to do the job -- however, I've since noticed that in another paragraph a chapter or two later, they refer to HC-110 as "highly solvent". Can't have it both ways, guys -- it's either highly solvent, or it doesn't have enough solvent action to uncover developable latent image specks. Which is it?
Well, doesn't really matter to me any more; I get about 1/3 stop increase with Caffenol, which has no solvent at all (AFAIK), and anywhere from 2/3 up to 2 stops, depending on the film, with Diafine. I use HC-110 when, for one reason or another, Diafine or Caffenol aren't the right thing; currently, HC-110 is my choice for TMY, but Tri-X gets one of the others (depending on which camera it was shot in -- my Jubilette can't handle EI 1600 in daylight).
In any case, even D-76 has 100 g/L -- Microdol-X adds 30 g/L sodium chloride on top of that to increase solvency without slowing the process (more than it already is; Microdol is also of much lower activity than D-76). However, in D-76 and Microdol-X, the sulfite is also acting as a preservative in stock solution and in working solution after dilution (to prevent the metol and/or hydroquinone oxidizing before you can develop your film), so more is needed than would maximize solvent action, which I'm told is about 65 g/L.
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
John - 07 Jul 2004 05:59 GMT >> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about >> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >in gaining a small amount of toe speed, will also completely undo the >acutance effects that give Rodinal its character. Actually this subject came up some time ago. John Hicks posted the following :
From http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38c2a59e.1420286%40fl.news.verio.net&output =gplain
Add about 20-50g/L sodium sulfite to your Rodinal working solution or, if you don't have a scale, from about 1/3 35mm film cannister to a full cannister. With many films that'll give you a slight speed increase (HP5+ at EI 320 rather than 250, for example) and help a little with the graininess. Even if you have a slow film in which graininess isn't a problem, it can help with speed (Delta 100 in Rodinal 1:50 EI 100 rather than EI 50 for the same CI). The recommended amounts will help reduce apparent grainiess a little, not dramatically, but won't make mush out of what would be a sharp neg. The sharpness is, to some extent, an illusion; the same film developed in D-76 1:1 will actually resolve somewhat smaller detail and show significantly finer grain but not appear as sharp in a print. I've found by far the most benefit of additional sodium sulfite to be with TMZ and Delta 3200 in Microphen and DD-X; often I can make an 11x print that shows finer grain than an 8x print while it still is sufficiently sharp. --- John Hicks
Regards,
John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Mark Rabiner - 08 Jul 2004 11:46 GMT On 7/6/04 9:59 PM, in article 3j0ne0plei7odns7k1jrfi27qhdq150s0h@4ax.com, "John" <use_net@darkroompro.com> typed:
>>> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about >>> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > --- > John Hicks John! D76 1:3 Or 1:2 even maybe and I'd believe it. Not 50 grams of sulfite per liter is it going to be that sharp from anything I've ever known!
I think go gotta start from thirty three and a third... And work down,
Is that the official Windisch amount? Or that other guy I always confuse with Windisch?
Might be 20.
Mark Rabiner Photography Portland Oregon http://rabinergroup.com/
Mike Sullivan - 07 Jul 2004 04:39 GMT > I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about > adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how > much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f. > -Lew Lew,
Try a Google search by following this URL. It should give you more info than you ever wanted to know.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Bill+Pierce%22+%2B+rodin al&btnG=Search&meta=group%3Drec.photo.darkroom
Hope this helps,
Mike Sullivan
Michael Scarpitti - 07 Jul 2004 17:37 GMT > I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about > adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how > much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f. > -Lew Well, stop thinking that. This is a poor idea.
Dan Quinn - 08 Jul 2004 10:29 GMT > I'm going to experiment... Search Google for, solution physical development . Unblinkingeye is the top most listing. You may be interested in some of the information there. I do not beleive there is any 'magic' percentage with any chemical listed there and that includes sulfite. That goes for other chemicals used in processing. Dan
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