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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2004

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Rodinal 1:100, sulfite & HP5+

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Lew - 06 Jul 2004 23:26 GMT
I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f.
-Lew
John - 07 Jul 2004 00:17 GMT
>I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
>adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
>much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f.
>-Lew

    Consider between 50 and 100g per liter of working developer
solution.

John
Robert Vervoordt - 09 Jul 2004 03:57 GMT
>>I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
>>adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>John

OK.  I used about 44 grams per liter of Sulfite in a working solution
of Rodinal 1:100.  I used it on everything from Pan-F , FP-4, Super
Hypan,  HP4,  Tri-X to a load of rebranded emulsions of many origins.

It was nice.  The speed was just about normal, the contrast was normal
but with detail in the highlights and the grain was less.  The
sharpness didn't suffer much, either.

All in all it was a very comfortable developer for a lot of emulsions.

Balanced, I'd call it.

Dwelling on one or two aspects of a film/dev combo's results,
especially when differences are hard to discern, can lead to
solipsistic isolation.

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Mark A - 07 Jul 2004 03:08 GMT
> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
> much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f.
> -Lew

Putting sulfite in Rodinal is like putting ketchup on prime steak.
Donald Qualls - 07 Jul 2004 04:22 GMT
>>I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
>>adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Putting sulfite in Rodinal is like putting ketchup on prime steak.

Which is to say, while some might consider it boorish, if it gives you
the flavor you like, go right ahead!

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Mark Rabiner - 08 Jul 2004 11:39 GMT
On 7/6/04 8:22 PM, in article h0KGc.37073$XM6.276@attbi_s53, "Donald Qualls"
<silent1@ix.netcom.com> typed:

>>> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
>>> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Which is to say, while some might consider it boorish, if it gives you
> the flavor you like, go right ahead!

I'm with you 100 percent on leaving the solvent out of the Rodinal.
Goes against the grain.
Which is supposed to be incredibly even and regular and sharp as a tack.
And leaving the steak knives off of the steak.
Using butter knifes instead. It the steak is any good it don¹t need no steak
knife. Use the steak knives for cutting ice cold butter.
And the hell with ketchup if you really want to ruin a steak put that 57
sauce on it or tobasco or Worstershire sauce. Exotic red sauces from days
gone by!
Otherwise known in my house as "red stuff".

Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/
Donald Qualls - 09 Jul 2004 04:05 GMT
> And leaving the steak knives off of the steak.

I prefer my steak to cut with a fork, but I usually can't afford steak
that good.  I'll settle for being able to chew it (with my very, very
bad teeth) without undue effort.

> And the hell with ketchup if you really want to ruin a steak put that 57
> sauce on it or tobasco or Worstershire sauce. Exotic red sauces from days
> gone by!
> Otherwise known in my house as "red stuff".

I generally use A-1, which is definitely not red.  ;)

But to get back to photography, if you like Rodinal grain, you really
should try Caffenol.  Crisp, clean grain, still small enough to ignore
in a 5x7 (from 35 mm Tri-X), and instead of a 1/3 to 2/3 stop loss of
speed, about a 1/3 stop gain.  And talk about low toxicity -- coffee and
washing soda are the only ingredients other than water.

Try it with a cubic grain film (I don't yet know how it'll act on a
T-grain) -- you'll be amazed.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Lew - 09 Jul 2004 20:36 GMT
Ok Mark:
   It's late in the day, I'm ready for a cup, and I know you're just dying
to share. What's your exact formula, working dilution & time?
-Lew
Donald Qualls - 10 Jul 2004 04:18 GMT
> Ok Mark:
>     It's late in the day, I'm ready for a cup, and I know you're just dying
> to share. What's your exact formula, working dilution & time?
> -Lew

Well, if you mean me (about Caffenol?), here it is -- this is based on
an article by Roger Bunting from about 1996, but I got it from a thread
on photo.net.  The name "Caffenol" is mine; others have called it
"Folgernol" or just coffee developer.

For each eight ounces of water:

2 tsp. Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda
4 (slight rounded) tsp. Folger's Coffee Crystals (or good copy of Folger's).

Mix at room temperature, stirring the soda until the solution is
completely clear before adding the coffee, and stirring until the coffee
is fully dissolved.

For Plus-X at EI 125, 25 minutes at 68 F
For Tri-X (old or new) at EI 400, 30 minutes at 70 F

Stop with water, ten agitations per fill until the water poured off is
clear.  Fix with your regular fixer, no need to post-soak or otherwise
take steps to increase stain.

Both yield negatives with significant base stain/fog, exceptional
sharpness, detectable imagewise stain (higher contrast in blue light
than in red), and about 1/3 stop increase in toe speed when scanned in
white light.  I haven't had a chance to print any of these yet -- don't
have my darkroom set up, and won't for several months with an upcoming
move interfering -- but would expect them to print like pyro or pyrocat
negatives, and potentially to require reduced development to avoid
excessive contrast in blue light (though this might be offset by the
contrast filtering effect of the general stain).

The developing agent is believed to be either caffeic acid or its
progenitor chlorogenic acid (if not both), not the caffeine -- in
theory, Folger's Decaf should work, though I don't know anyone who's
tried it.  I'm told chlorogenic acid is present in many green fruits and
leaves, so it's possible there may be other "organic" developers that
could be made with extracts from plants -- but coffee is cheap, readily
available in pre-extracted instant form, and you can drink it when
you're not using it as developer (well, it's instant, so *you* might
drink it, but I won't).

There's also a low contrast version (my own modification), suitable for
Tech Pan, microfilms, and other contrast control situations.  Simply cut
the coffee crystals in half while keeping the washing soda the same,
though you're generally on your own for starting times.  General stain
is nearly eliminated, though there is still some imagewise stain.  For
Imagelink HQ (very similar to Tech Pan in ways that matter) exposed at
EI 50, I'd start with 30 minutes at 70 F, though you could use 20
minutes if you expose at EI 25.  The negatives don't look pushed even at
EI 50; again, there may be a small toe speed increase.  The same time
(30 minutes) can probably be used for Copex Rapid at EI 100, though I
haven't tested enough to be certain.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Donald Qualls - 07 Jul 2004 04:22 GMT
> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
> much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f.
> -Lew

I wouldn't suggest adding sulfite to Rodinal -- you'll defeat most of
what makes Rodinal unique, which is its non-solvent nature.  No sulfite
is required for preservation of the developing agent, so the only thing
you'll gain is its silver solvent action -- which, while it might result
in gaining a small amount of toe speed, will also completely undo the
acutance effects that give Rodinal its character.

If you feel you must, the amount would be between 10 g/L (minimum to see
any effect) to about 65 g/L (maximum solvent effect when not required as
a preservative).

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Lew - 07 Jul 2004 05:18 GMT
I seem to recall reading that small amounts of sulfite are useful to prevent
emulsion swelling and grain clumping without exerting any solvent effect at
all. Microdol-x like formulas use 100g/l (I think), but I think I read that
10g/l is cool for what I'm after.
-Lew
Donald Qualls - 08 Jul 2004 03:20 GMT
> I seem to recall reading that small amounts of sulfite are useful to prevent
> emulsion swelling and grain clumping without exerting any solvent effect at
> all. Microdol-x like formulas use 100g/l (I think), but I think I read that
> 10g/l is cool for what I'm after.

I tried adding 10 g/L to HC-110 Dilution H, after reading in Anchell &
Troop that HC-110 doesn't show a toe speed increase like most PQ
acutance developers because of insufficient sulfite.  I couldn't see any
change, though it might require more to do the job -- however, I've
since noticed that in another paragraph a chapter or two later, they
refer to HC-110 as "highly solvent".  Can't have it both ways, guys --
it's either highly solvent, or it doesn't have enough solvent action to
uncover developable latent image specks.  Which is it?

Well, doesn't really matter to me any more; I get about 1/3 stop
increase with Caffenol, which has no solvent at all (AFAIK), and
anywhere from 2/3 up to 2 stops, depending on the film, with Diafine.  I
use HC-110 when, for one reason or another, Diafine or Caffenol aren't
the right thing; currently, HC-110 is my choice for TMY, but Tri-X gets
one of the others (depending on which camera it was shot in -- my
Jubilette can't handle EI 1600 in daylight).

In any case, even D-76 has 100 g/L -- Microdol-X adds 30 g/L sodium
chloride on top of that to increase solvency without slowing the process
(more than it already is; Microdol is also of much lower activity than
D-76).  However, in D-76 and Microdol-X, the sulfite is also acting as a
preservative in stock solution and in working solution after dilution
(to prevent the metol and/or hydroquinone oxidizing before you can
develop your film), so more is needed than would maximize solvent
action, which I'm told is about 65 g/L.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

John - 07 Jul 2004 05:59 GMT
>> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
>> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>in gaining a small amount of toe speed, will also completely undo the
>acutance effects that give Rodinal its character.

    Actually this subject came up some time ago. John Hicks posted
the following :

From
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38c2a59e.1420286%40fl.news.verio.net&output
=gplain


Add about 20-50g/L sodium sulfite to your Rodinal working solution
or, if you don't have a scale, from about 1/3 35mm film cannister to a
full cannister.
 With many films that'll give you a slight speed increase (HP5+ at EI
320 rather than 250, for example) and help a little with the
graininess. Even if you have a slow film in which graininess isn't a
problem, it can help with speed (Delta 100 in Rodinal 1:50 EI 100
rather than EI 50 for the same CI).
 The recommended amounts will help reduce apparent grainiess a
little, not dramatically, but won't make mush out of what would be a
sharp neg.
 The sharpness is, to some extent, an illusion; the same film
developed in D-76 1:1 will actually resolve somewhat smaller detail
and show significantly finer grain but not appear as sharp in a print.
 I've found by far the most benefit of additional sodium sulfite to
be with TMZ and Delta 3200 in Microphen and DD-X; often I can make an
11x print that shows finer grain than an 8x print while it still is
sufficiently sharp.
---
John Hicks

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.darkroompro.com
             Please remove the "_" when replying via email
Mark Rabiner - 08 Jul 2004 11:46 GMT
On 7/6/04 9:59 PM, in article 3j0ne0plei7odns7k1jrfi27qhdq150s0h@4ax.com,
"John" <use_net@darkroompro.com> typed:

>>> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
>>> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> ---
> John Hicks

John! D76 1:3 Or 1:2 even maybe and I'd believe it.
Not 50 grams of sulfite per liter is it going to be that sharp from anything
I've ever known!

I think go gotta start from thirty three and a third...
And work down,

Is that the official Windisch amount? Or that other guy I always confuse
with Windisch?

Might be 20.

Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/
Mike Sullivan - 07 Jul 2004 04:39 GMT
> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
> much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f.
> -Lew

Lew,

Try a Google search by following this URL. It should give you more
info than you ever wanted to know.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Bill+Pierce%22+%2B+rodin
al&btnG=Search&meta=group%3Drec.photo.darkroom


Hope this helps,

Mike Sullivan
Michael Scarpitti - 07 Jul 2004 17:37 GMT
> I'm going to experiment with 35mm HP5+ in Rodinal 1:100. I've read about
> adding sulfite to the working strength solution, but I can't recall how
> much. Suggestions? For those interested, I'm thinking around 30 min at 70f.
> -Lew

Well, stop thinking that. This is a poor idea.
Dan Quinn - 08 Jul 2004 10:29 GMT
> I'm going to experiment...

 Search Google for, solution physical development . Unblinkingeye
is the top most listing. You may be interested in some of the
information there.
 I do not beleive there is any 'magic' percentage with any chemical
listed there and that includes sulfite.
 That goes for other chemicals used in processing.              Dan
 
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