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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2004

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fridge and heat problems

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Edwin - 01 Jul 2004 09:13 GMT
Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature:
+-40°C/104°F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the
fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w
films is at a temperature of 26°C/79°F. Do you think there is a danger
if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20°C/68°F. Rgds, Ed
Nick Zentena - 01 Jul 2004 13:12 GMT
> Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature:
> +-40C/104F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the
> fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w

 I do this all the time.

> films is at a temperature of 26C/79F. Do you think there is a danger
> if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20C/68F. Rgds, Ed

 A water bath will work just fine if you can keep the water cool. I have
the opposite problem with colour developing. What I do is fill a picnic
cooler with hot water and stick all the chemicals inside that. Something
insulted will change temp slower then just an open tray.
 
 Nick
BertS - 04 Jul 2004 14:57 GMT
>>Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature:
>>+-40°C/104°F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> cooler with hot water and stick all the chemicals inside that. Something
> insulted will change temp slower then just an open tray.
  ^^^^^^^^
>  
>   Nick

I think I will try what you describe. I have a picnic cooler and can cuss in
two languages fluently and can do a few epithets in a couple others.

Do you think I need to match the language to the country of origin of the
developer? I can't cuss worth a darn in German. Does that mean I should not
use Rodinal?

Bert <very tongue-in-cheek
Nick Zentena - 04 Jul 2004 17:34 GMT
> I think I will try what you describe. I have a picnic cooler and can cuss in
> two languages fluently and can do a few epithets in a couple others.
>
> Do you think I need to match the language to the country of origin of the
> developer? I can't cuss worth a darn in German. Does that mean I should not
> use Rodinal?

 The problem is you'll need a german sense of humour-)))) Ilford products
are easy just watch plenty of Monty Python. I use D-23 and make sure I've
got the stooges on the TV.
 
 Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan - 04 Jul 2004 20:17 GMT
> BertS <aasainz@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> > I can't cuss worth a darn in German.
>
>   The problem is you'll need a German sense of humour-)))

Now that is an intro....

I think it best to know "nothink" at this juncture.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.

BertS - 05 Jul 2004 04:35 GMT
>>I think I will try what you describe. I have a picnic cooler and can cuss in
>>two languages fluently and can do a few epithets in a couple others.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>  
>   Nick

Well, there is always Schultz and Colonel Klink. If that is not suitable then
"I know nottink!"

Bert
Magdalena W. - 01 Jul 2004 13:13 GMT
Uzytkownik "Edwin" <edwin_vandevyver@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci

> Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature:
> +-40?C/104?F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in
the
> fridge once exposed?
Despite living in a colder location, I always put the films I exposed
in the fridge, until I develop them. When you get ready to develop,
simply let them stand for a couple of hours after you take them out of
the fridge.

Regards
Magdalena
Ursus Californicus - 01 Jul 2004 15:34 GMT
> Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature:
> +-40?C/104?F.

I can relate; here in Sacramento, California, it gets up to 120 F in the
summer.  The best I can keep my darkroom is about 80 F.  I keep all my films
in the freezer, both before I expose them, and after if there's going to be
a delay in processing.

If using open trays, you can buy those little reusable containers that you
freeze (or even water in a *partially* filled ziplock bag) and then put them
in the trays briefly.  If you use hand-held daylight tanks, use a large
print tray as a "bath" to let the tank sit in when you are not aggitating
it.

I use a Jobo CPP-2 most of the time.  With it an similar processors,
*partially* fill the chemistry bottles you are not using with water, and put
them in the freezer with the lids off (don't want them to rupture!).  Then
put them where they'd normally sit in the processor.  Within half an hour,
my temps are stabilized at 68 F +/- 0.1 F (my preferred temp).  As long as
you make sure the ice doesn't all melt before you're done, it works fine,
and keeps your ice from jamming the tube motor.  Open ice chunks are a very
bad thing!

-- Theo Benson, MA
Grizzly Glen Photography
www.chameleon.net/ursus
Mike King - 01 Jul 2004 17:28 GMT
Same here, but one warning, put the exposed film rolls in an airtight
container or ZIP-lok type bag before chilling and let the package warm back
to room temp before processing, this will minimize condensation on the film
rolls.

Water baths work well, to cool the water you can either use ice in bags or
use empty PETE soda pop bottles filled with water and then frozen to cool
the bath.  The bags are OK in the water bath but I always hesitate to apply
them directly to my solutions for fear of leaks and unwanted dilution of my
processing solutions.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

> Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature:
> +-40?C/104?F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the
> fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w
> films is at a temperature of 26?C/79?F. Do you think there is a danger
> if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20?C/68?F. Rgds, Ed
Donald Qualls - 02 Jul 2004 04:52 GMT
> Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature:
> +-40°C/104°F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the
> fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w
> films is at a temperature of 26°C/79°F. Do you think there is a danger
> if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20°C/68°F. Rgds, Ed

Yes, it's okay to put your exposed film back in the fridge, as long as
you a) put it in a vapor-tight container, and b) let it warm before
opening the vapor barrier, to prevent condensation from damaging the
emulsion.

And you could develop most B&W materials at the ambient temperature of
26 C, all you'd have to do is shorten the process time to compensate for
the increase in acitivity with temperature.  If you do choose to chill
your solutions to 20 C, be aware that a small increase in temperature
from one solution to the next can cause reticulation, while decreases
generally don't; that is, it's better to have your stop and fixer
progressively cooler than to have them progressively warmer.  Best of
all, work at a constant temperature (like that of the room).

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Phil Glaser - 05 Jul 2004 14:00 GMT
> And you could develop most B&W materials at the ambient temperature of
> 26 C, all you'd have to do is shorten the process time to compensate for
> the increase in acitivity with temperature.  

Having observed a four-degree temperature drift in my developer
solution yesterday (despite putting the tank into a bath of tempered
water), this has become a hot topic for me (pun intended).

I am sorely tempted to develop at a higher temperature. Around where I
live, 75 deg. F. would do the trick quite nicely. My hesitation comes
from my perception, which is perhaps mistaken, that even if you adjust
the development time, there is a difference between developing at 68
versus at 75 degrees F. I've seen people claim, for examlple, that
TMAX is _ideally_ developed at 75 degrees, whereas conventional
emulsions are better developed at 68. And then what happens in the
winter, when ambient room temperature is 68 degrees. Even if either
temperature is ok with development time change, for ones own process,
shouldn't the development temperature always be consistent.

The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a
besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And
I've measured a drift of more than four degrees here. How would I
addjust the print development time from 1 minute (the recommended time
for Ilford Multigrade developer at 68 degrees F) if the temperature is
75 degrees?

Thanks!

--Phil
Nicholas O. Lindan - 05 Jul 2004 15:10 GMT
> I use a Jobo print drum on a besseler motor base. I have no way
> of keeping the drum submersed. And I've measured a drift of more
> than four degrees here.

With a little bit of specsmanship and technique change I'll bet
we can say that's actually high precision temperature control:

Start the development at 66F, finish at 70F.  Never more than
2F degrees off, not so bad, eh?

Then convert to centigrade:  20C +/- 1 degree.

It's all how you look at it.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

Nick Zentena - 05 Jul 2004 15:52 GMT
> The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a
> besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And
> I've measured a drift of more than four degrees here. How would I
> addjust the print development time from 1 minute (the recommended time
> for Ilford Multigrade developer at 68 degrees F) if the temperature is
> 75 degrees?

 I find this interesting. The drums don't change enough to matter with
colour printing. Do you just add the tempered developer to the drum? You
could try cooling the drum first. Add tempered plain water to the tank.
That'll drop the temperture inside the tank. Or you could stand the whole
tank in water with a weight on top of it. The first one is quicker. But you
might have to adjust for the water bath some how.

    But isn't B&W printing basically done to completion? Unless things are
so warm the developer changes how it works will it matter?

  Nick
Phil Glaser - 05 Jul 2004 19:52 GMT
> > The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a
> > besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>   I find this interesting. The drums don't change enough to matter with
> colour printing. Do you just add the tempered developer to the drum?

Yeah, I soak the vessel containing the developer in ice water to get
it down to 68 deg. F. and then in it goes. When I pour it out and
observe its temperature, just 60 seconds later, it's gone up to 72 (or
perhaps even more).

> You
> could try cooling the drum first.

Oy! This drum is already such a hassle to start with! I'm beginning to
pine for open trays. The only reason I do this is because my dry space
and wet space are in separate rooms, the wet space being a bathroom.
It's a pain to set it up each time as it is, without having to
light-proof it as well. Each print requires a trip up and down the
stairs, and then that exhaustive process of drying out the drum for
each print. Now I'm going to put it in the fridge first, or a bucket
of ice?

Do you see why I've been tempted by digital lately?

> Add tempered plain water to the tank.
> That'll drop the temperture inside the tank.

Yeah, that was my thought also.

>      But isn't B&W printing basically done to completion? Unless things are
> so warm the developer changes how it works will it matter?

Well I guess that's the core of the issue. My impression from the
archives is that a lot of folks don't care quite as much about
temperature with printing because they have more direct control and
can pop the thing in and out of the develper tray at will. In my case,
because I never see the print until it's fixed, I need to be a bit
more precise. I suppose I could just let this one go (in the sense of,
"let go and let God") and see if there's any observable difference
when the ambient temperature gets cooler in a few months. I'm not as
worked upabout this one as I am about the negative development for
obvious reasons, but with each print requiring a round trip up and
down stairs, I think you can see why I'm after as much consistency as
possible.

Glad to see other darkroom geeks here in the States are geeking away
on the "4th"!

--Phil
Nick Zentena - 05 Jul 2004 22:01 GMT
> Yeah, I soak the vessel containing the developer in ice water to get
> it down to 68 deg. F. and then in it goes. When I pour it out and
> observe its temperature, just 60 seconds later, it's gone up to 72 (or
> perhaps even more).

 I bet it's even quicker then that. The developer hits the tank and it
comes up in temp.

> Do you see why I've been tempted by digital lately?

 No-) I sort of enjoy the challenges-)
 

> Well I guess that's the core of the issue. My impression from the
> archives is that a lot of folks don't care quite as much about
> temperature with printing because they have more direct control and
> can pop the thing in and out of the develper tray at will. In my case,

 I'd be suprised if alot of people are pulling prints early. It takes alot
more effort to judge the exact point to pull a print. Easier to let the
print sit in the developer for the full time and then adjust exposure.

  One  other thing I thought of. You're not using a lot of developer. Just
using more will help. The small volume of developer makes it easy for the
tank to heat it up.

    Nick
Donald Qualls - 05 Jul 2004 16:57 GMT
>>And you could develop most B&W materials at the ambient temperature of
>>26 C, all you'd have to do is shorten the process time to compensate for
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> temperature is ok with development time change, for ones own process,
> shouldn't the development temperature always be consistent.

Well, this depends to some extent on the developer.  A developer with a
single developing agent should generally have a straight
time/temperature curve (at least to some lower point where activity
drops suddenly -- this exists for most organic developers, with
hydroquinone being the best known for losing almost all activity below
65 F).  If you use something like Rodinal, it really doesn't matter what
temperature you have (as long as the emulsion will stay on the film
base); just compensate from the published time/temperature chart using
the curve for your dilution.

With a complex developer, OTOH, perhaps one that contains metol,
phenidone, *and* hydroquinone, the curve is non-linear and some of the
agents (HQ) lose activity at a non-linear rate below some temperature;
you might well see a visible difference in tonality, toe speed, grain,
etc. even when compensating for temperature to give the same contrast
(grain is the most likely to change, even with single-agent developers,
because longer in the soup makes for larger grain independent of other
factors).  Loss of activity shouldn't be a problem as long as room
ambient is at or above 68 F.

Kodak's recommendation for 75 F processing with T-Max developer is
because shorter time means less grain, and little else, though it also
hinges on a developer with low enough activity to have small tank
process times of five minutes or longer at that temperature -- you
couldn't process most films in HC-110 Dilution B at that temperature,
because the process time would be under 4 minutes for most common films.
 T-Max, however, isn't the ideal developer for much of anything; you're
better with XTOL, diluted 1:1 or 1:3 (observing, always, the requirement
of 100 ml of stock solution per 80 square inches of film, even if that
means a larger tank to hold the 400 ml of working solution for one 35 mm
film), for practically all modern films.

And with most developers, if your process time is too short, you can
dilute more -- doubling the liquid volume by adding water generally
requires between 1.5x and 2x developing time, and care to maintain
minimum active developer requirements -- though diluting tends to reduce
solvent effects and can convert a fine grain developer into a mild
acutance developer; it can also affect film speed (with most slow to
medium speed films, more dilution gives higher toe speed because
development must be extended to produce normal contrast).

I might mention, I have developed (30 years ago) with HC-110 Dilution B
in a dormitory room with the windows blocked off to make it dark (and
incidentally eliminating ventilation), in the heart of summer, at 95 F.
 Process time was under three minutes, and I got perfectly fine
negatives, though I don't think I'd want to repeat the operation at this
late date...

> The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a
> besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And
> I've measured a drift of more than four degrees here. How would I
> addjust the print development time from 1 minute (the recommended time
> for Ilford Multigrade developer at 68 degrees F) if the temperature is
> 75 degrees?

The situation is better for printing -- diluting Dektol and other print
developers has almost no effect on the print, other than to slow the
process time.  Whatever you're using for print developer, double your
dilution, find your new complete development time, and then adjust for
temperature.  Since prints should be developed to completion anyway, it
won't hurt anything if the print is left in a few seconds too long, but
gross overdevelopment can add fog; best to have a process time of around
two minutes at your lowest temperature (68 F) and adjust to shorter
times (still longer than one minute) for higher temperatures.  With
Dektol, instead of the 1:2 that seems common now (we used to use it 1:1
when I printed in high school in 1974), you can dilute up to 1:9
(according to Saint Ansel) to gain working time -- in his case, this was
for making mural-sized prints, but working at 1:3 instead of 1:2 should
get you enough time to keep your development over a minute even at 75 F.
 Of course, higher dilution in the same tray size means you have to
watch more closely and compensate more carefully for developer
exhaustion -- but that just means you get even more working time, since
the partially used developer takes longer to bring up the print.

Bottom line is that it's more important to have the temperature constant
through the process than to have it at a set figure -- you can pretty
easily compensate for a different temperature, but you can't begin to be
consistent with four degrees of temperature shift during development.

Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning
in your darkroom.  You can get a small window unit for well under $100,
though cutting a hole in the wall and ensuring it's light baffled will
probably run the cost up.  ;)

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Phil Glaser - 06 Jul 2004 01:12 GMT
> Well, this depends to some extent on the developer.  A developer with a
> single developing agent should generally have a straight
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> base); just compensate from the published time/temperature chart using
> the curve for your dilution.

Ok, this helps quite a bit. As it turns out I am using Rodinal. So 75
deg. F. it is!

> With a complex developer, OTOH, perhaps one that contains metol,
> phenidone, *and* hydroquinone, the curve is non-linear and some of the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> factors).  Loss of activity shouldn't be a problem as long as room
> ambient is at or above 68 F.

Oh, ok, so even for these more complex developers, going up to 75 deg.
F. should not pose a problem. Also good to know.

> And with most developers, if your process time is too short, you can
> dilute more -- doubling the liquid volume by adding water generally
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> medium speed films, more dilution gives higher toe speed because
> development must be extended to produce normal contrast).

Now here's an interesting thing. I've been developing TMY in HC-110
diluted 1:63 (unofficial dilution "h") for the accutance affect. After
several tests, using a densitomter to get the Zone I exposure to .1
over b+f, I arrived at EI 200. So here I _lost_ a whole stop. That,
and the noticably more grainy result, are motivating me to look for a
new combination.

> The situation is better for printing -- diluting Dektol and other print
> developers has almost no effect on the print, other than to slow the
> process time.  Whatever you're using for print developer, double your
> dilution, find your new complete development time, and then adjust for
> temperature.  

Hmmm. Ok, so Ilford's instructions call for Multigrade developer 1:9
for one minute at 68 deg. F. So at 1:18 that would theoretically be 2
minutes. But the increased temperature, to 75 degrees, should reduce
that time. But by how much? Does the time/temp chart at digital truth
work for papaer developers as well
(http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html).

> Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning
> in your darkroom.  You can get a small window unit for well under $100,
> though cutting a hole in the wall and ensuring it's light baffled will
> probably run the cost up.  ;)

The bathroom in which I develop has a window that's about 10" x 10 "
I've never seen an a/c unit that small (though it would be
intriguing).

Thanks for your help sorting all this out. This is very helpful.

--Phil
Gary Beasley - 06 Jul 2004 22:08 GMT
>> Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning
>> in your darkroom.  You can get a small window unit for well under $100,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I've never seen an a/c unit that small (though it would be
>intriguing).

Yyou don't need to have the air conditioner in the window, you just
need to get the air into the window. A properly made outside support
and an ingenious homebrewed duct/baffle system would get the bathroom
cooled down. Best used with a small AC with the control panel to one
side. A two channel duct, the intake channel also used to reach the
control panel, with louvers on the output to direct the air up and
away from the intake will get the job done.
Donald Qualls - 07 Jul 2004 04:43 GMT
>>And with most developers, if your process time is too short, you can
>>dilute more -- doubling the liquid volume by adding water generally
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and the noticably more grainy result, are motivating me to look for a
> new combination.

IOW, you got what most Zonies get -- an EI one stop slower than the ISO
speed.  I don't call that a speed loss, I call that a disparate method
of measuring speed.  However...

First, TMY is not a "slow to medium" film; second, you may find it
advantageous (especially with HC-110) to reduce agitation and develop
for contrast rather than toe density.  Done your way, you get a flat
negative with EI 200; developed for mid-tones, you'll get a normal
negative with EI 400, requiring longer development in the same dilution.

This past weekend, I souped 4 rolls of TMY 120 in HC-110 Dilution G --
1:119 from USA syrup -- some for 15 minutes at 70 F with reduced
agitation (every 3 minutes), some for 15 minutes at 70 F with normal
agitation (every minute), and some for 12 minutes at 74 F (compensated
for increased temperature) with normal agitation.  The roll with reduced
agitation is clearly of reduced contrast compared to the others, but all
have similar toe speed -- toe is affected primarily by total
time/temperature in the soup, regardless of agitation, because local
exhaustion doesn't affect lightly exposed areas.  Mid-tones, and more so
highlights, get less development with less agitation, which reduces
contrast (because less agitation gives less fresh developer in areas
where it exhausts fastest -- and this is most pronounced at high
dilutions).  So, when you reduce agitation, you have to develop longer
to get the contrast back to normal -- and in the process, you gain speed
in the toe.  With Dilution G, you can even stand develop -- agitate for
the first minute, and then just walk away for up to a couple hours --
for extreme contrast control; I've done this with microfilm emulsions
similar to Tech Pan and gotten good pictorial contrast and shadow detail
at 2x normal speed for low contrast development.

The key, though, is not to develop until your toe is at 0.1 over B+F;
rather to develop to normal contrast and let the toe detemine where Zone
I falls.

>>The situation is better for printing -- diluting Dektol and other print
>>developers has almost no effect on the print, other than to slow the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> work for papaer developers as well
> (http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html).

Multigrade is effectively a PQ developer -- it uses Dimezone, which is
dimethyl phenidone, and hydroquinone as developing agents.  As such, it
should follow a similar temperature/activity curve to other PQ
developers like HC-110 (though the proportion can affect the curve, and
with different phenidone derivatives, it's hard to be sure of the
correct slope).

>>Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning
>>in your darkroom.  You can get a small window unit for well under $100,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I've never seen an a/c unit that small (though it would be
> intriguing).

If you own the house, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to enlarge the
window opening to accomodate a standard A/C unit -- and privacy wouldn't
be a problem, since an A/C unit is at least as opaque as a frosted
bathroom window, but if that's the only A/C in the house, getting other
family members out of the bathroom might become an issue.  The alternate
would be to mount a standard A/C outside the wall (with controls remoted
inside) and duct the cool air output through the window opening; trivial
for someone who works with furnace ducting, but installation by a
professional would completely swamp the cost of a small A/C unit.  Or,
if the house has a crawl space, it might be possible to mount the A/C
under the sink/counter, and exhaust the hot air into the crawl space
(though that would have the effect of making your water, already likely
too warm, still warmer).

> Thanks for your help sorting all this out. This is very helpful.
>
> --Phil

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

 
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