Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / July 2004
fridge and heat problems
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Edwin - 01 Jul 2004 09:13 GMT Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature: +-40°C/104°F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w films is at a temperature of 26°C/79°F. Do you think there is a danger if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20°C/68°F. Rgds, Ed
Nick Zentena - 01 Jul 2004 13:12 GMT > Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature: > +-40C/104F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the > fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w I do this all the time.
> films is at a temperature of 26C/79F. Do you think there is a danger > if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20C/68F. Rgds, Ed A water bath will work just fine if you can keep the water cool. I have the opposite problem with colour developing. What I do is fill a picnic cooler with hot water and stick all the chemicals inside that. Something insulted will change temp slower then just an open tray. Nick
BertS - 04 Jul 2004 14:57 GMT >>Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature: >>+-40°C/104°F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > cooler with hot water and stick all the chemicals inside that. Something > insulted will change temp slower then just an open tray. ^^^^^^^^
> > Nick I think I will try what you describe. I have a picnic cooler and can cuss in two languages fluently and can do a few epithets in a couple others.
Do you think I need to match the language to the country of origin of the developer? I can't cuss worth a darn in German. Does that mean I should not use Rodinal?
Bert <very tongue-in-cheek
Nick Zentena - 04 Jul 2004 17:34 GMT > I think I will try what you describe. I have a picnic cooler and can cuss in > two languages fluently and can do a few epithets in a couple others. > > Do you think I need to match the language to the country of origin of the > developer? I can't cuss worth a darn in German. Does that mean I should not > use Rodinal? The problem is you'll need a german sense of humour-)))) Ilford products are easy just watch plenty of Monty Python. I use D-23 and make sure I've got the stooges on the TV. Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan - 04 Jul 2004 20:17 GMT > BertS <aasainz@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > I can't cuss worth a darn in German. > > The problem is you'll need a German sense of humour-))) Now that is an intro....
I think it best to know "nothink" at this juncture.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
BertS - 05 Jul 2004 04:35 GMT >>I think I will try what you describe. I have a picnic cooler and can cuss in >>two languages fluently and can do a few epithets in a couple others. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Nick Well, there is always Schultz and Colonel Klink. If that is not suitable then "I know nottink!"
Bert
Magdalena W. - 01 Jul 2004 13:13 GMT Uzytkownik "Edwin" <edwin_vandevyver@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci
> Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature: > +-40?C/104?F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the
> fridge once exposed? Despite living in a colder location, I always put the films I exposed in the fridge, until I develop them. When you get ready to develop, simply let them stand for a couple of hours after you take them out of the fridge.
Regards Magdalena
Ursus Californicus - 01 Jul 2004 15:34 GMT > Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature: > +-40?C/104?F. I can relate; here in Sacramento, California, it gets up to 120 F in the summer. The best I can keep my darkroom is about 80 F. I keep all my films in the freezer, both before I expose them, and after if there's going to be a delay in processing.
If using open trays, you can buy those little reusable containers that you freeze (or even water in a *partially* filled ziplock bag) and then put them in the trays briefly. If you use hand-held daylight tanks, use a large print tray as a "bath" to let the tank sit in when you are not aggitating it.
I use a Jobo CPP-2 most of the time. With it an similar processors, *partially* fill the chemistry bottles you are not using with water, and put them in the freezer with the lids off (don't want them to rupture!). Then put them where they'd normally sit in the processor. Within half an hour, my temps are stabilized at 68 F +/- 0.1 F (my preferred temp). As long as you make sure the ice doesn't all melt before you're done, it works fine, and keeps your ice from jamming the tube motor. Open ice chunks are a very bad thing!
-- Theo Benson, MA Grizzly Glen Photography www.chameleon.net/ursus
Mike King - 01 Jul 2004 17:28 GMT Same here, but one warning, put the exposed film rolls in an airtight container or ZIP-lok type bag before chilling and let the package warm back to room temp before processing, this will minimize condensation on the film rolls.
Water baths work well, to cool the water you can either use ice in bags or use empty PETE soda pop bottles filled with water and then frozen to cool the bath. The bags are OK in the water bath but I always hesitate to apply them directly to my solutions for fear of leaks and unwanted dilution of my processing solutions.
 Signature darkroommike
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> Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature: > +-40?C/104?F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the > fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w > films is at a temperature of 26?C/79?F. Do you think there is a danger > if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20?C/68?F. Rgds, Ed Donald Qualls - 02 Jul 2004 04:52 GMT > Here in South of Spain, we are experiencing very high temperature: > +-40°C/104°F. And I fear for my exposed films. Can I put those in the > fridge once exposed? Also, the room were I usually developped my b&w > films is at a temperature of 26°C/79°F. Do you think there is a danger > if i develop in this room in a bain-marie of 20°C/68°F. Rgds, Ed Yes, it's okay to put your exposed film back in the fridge, as long as you a) put it in a vapor-tight container, and b) let it warm before opening the vapor barrier, to prevent condensation from damaging the emulsion.
And you could develop most B&W materials at the ambient temperature of 26 C, all you'd have to do is shorten the process time to compensate for the increase in acitivity with temperature. If you do choose to chill your solutions to 20 C, be aware that a small increase in temperature from one solution to the next can cause reticulation, while decreases generally don't; that is, it's better to have your stop and fixer progressively cooler than to have them progressively warmer. Best of all, work at a constant temperature (like that of the room).
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Phil Glaser - 05 Jul 2004 14:00 GMT > And you could develop most B&W materials at the ambient temperature of > 26 C, all you'd have to do is shorten the process time to compensate for > the increase in acitivity with temperature. Having observed a four-degree temperature drift in my developer solution yesterday (despite putting the tank into a bath of tempered water), this has become a hot topic for me (pun intended).
I am sorely tempted to develop at a higher temperature. Around where I live, 75 deg. F. would do the trick quite nicely. My hesitation comes from my perception, which is perhaps mistaken, that even if you adjust the development time, there is a difference between developing at 68 versus at 75 degrees F. I've seen people claim, for examlple, that TMAX is _ideally_ developed at 75 degrees, whereas conventional emulsions are better developed at 68. And then what happens in the winter, when ambient room temperature is 68 degrees. Even if either temperature is ok with development time change, for ones own process, shouldn't the development temperature always be consistent.
The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And I've measured a drift of more than four degrees here. How would I addjust the print development time from 1 minute (the recommended time for Ilford Multigrade developer at 68 degrees F) if the temperature is 75 degrees?
Thanks!
--Phil
Nicholas O. Lindan - 05 Jul 2004 15:10 GMT > I use a Jobo print drum on a besseler motor base. I have no way > of keeping the drum submersed. And I've measured a drift of more > than four degrees here. With a little bit of specsmanship and technique change I'll bet we can say that's actually high precision temperature control:
Start the development at 66F, finish at 70F. Never more than 2F degrees off, not so bad, eh?
Then convert to centigrade: 20C +/- 1 degree.
It's all how you look at it.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Nick Zentena - 05 Jul 2004 15:52 GMT > The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a > besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And > I've measured a drift of more than four degrees here. How would I > addjust the print development time from 1 minute (the recommended time > for Ilford Multigrade developer at 68 degrees F) if the temperature is > 75 degrees? I find this interesting. The drums don't change enough to matter with colour printing. Do you just add the tempered developer to the drum? You could try cooling the drum first. Add tempered plain water to the tank. That'll drop the temperture inside the tank. Or you could stand the whole tank in water with a weight on top of it. The first one is quicker. But you might have to adjust for the water bath some how.
But isn't B&W printing basically done to completion? Unless things are so warm the developer changes how it works will it matter?
Nick
Phil Glaser - 05 Jul 2004 19:52 GMT > > The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a > > besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I find this interesting. The drums don't change enough to matter with > colour printing. Do you just add the tempered developer to the drum? Yeah, I soak the vessel containing the developer in ice water to get it down to 68 deg. F. and then in it goes. When I pour it out and observe its temperature, just 60 seconds later, it's gone up to 72 (or perhaps even more).
> You > could try cooling the drum first. Oy! This drum is already such a hassle to start with! I'm beginning to pine for open trays. The only reason I do this is because my dry space and wet space are in separate rooms, the wet space being a bathroom. It's a pain to set it up each time as it is, without having to light-proof it as well. Each print requires a trip up and down the stairs, and then that exhaustive process of drying out the drum for each print. Now I'm going to put it in the fridge first, or a bucket of ice?
Do you see why I've been tempted by digital lately?
> Add tempered plain water to the tank. > That'll drop the temperture inside the tank. Yeah, that was my thought also.
> But isn't B&W printing basically done to completion? Unless things are > so warm the developer changes how it works will it matter? Well I guess that's the core of the issue. My impression from the archives is that a lot of folks don't care quite as much about temperature with printing because they have more direct control and can pop the thing in and out of the develper tray at will. In my case, because I never see the print until it's fixed, I need to be a bit more precise. I suppose I could just let this one go (in the sense of, "let go and let God") and see if there's any observable difference when the ambient temperature gets cooler in a few months. I'm not as worked upabout this one as I am about the negative development for obvious reasons, but with each print requiring a round trip up and down stairs, I think you can see why I'm after as much consistency as possible.
Glad to see other darkroom geeks here in the States are geeking away on the "4th"!
--Phil
Nick Zentena - 05 Jul 2004 22:01 GMT > Yeah, I soak the vessel containing the developer in ice water to get > it down to 68 deg. F. and then in it goes. When I pour it out and > observe its temperature, just 60 seconds later, it's gone up to 72 (or > perhaps even more). I bet it's even quicker then that. The developer hits the tank and it comes up in temp.
> Do you see why I've been tempted by digital lately? No-) I sort of enjoy the challenges-)
> Well I guess that's the core of the issue. My impression from the > archives is that a lot of folks don't care quite as much about > temperature with printing because they have more direct control and > can pop the thing in and out of the develper tray at will. In my case, I'd be suprised if alot of people are pulling prints early. It takes alot more effort to judge the exact point to pull a print. Easier to let the print sit in the developer for the full time and then adjust exposure.
One other thing I thought of. You're not using a lot of developer. Just using more will help. The small volume of developer makes it easy for the tank to heat it up.
Nick
Donald Qualls - 05 Jul 2004 16:57 GMT >>And you could develop most B&W materials at the ambient temperature of >>26 C, all you'd have to do is shorten the process time to compensate for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > temperature is ok with development time change, for ones own process, > shouldn't the development temperature always be consistent. Well, this depends to some extent on the developer. A developer with a single developing agent should generally have a straight time/temperature curve (at least to some lower point where activity drops suddenly -- this exists for most organic developers, with hydroquinone being the best known for losing almost all activity below 65 F). If you use something like Rodinal, it really doesn't matter what temperature you have (as long as the emulsion will stay on the film base); just compensate from the published time/temperature chart using the curve for your dilution.
With a complex developer, OTOH, perhaps one that contains metol, phenidone, *and* hydroquinone, the curve is non-linear and some of the agents (HQ) lose activity at a non-linear rate below some temperature; you might well see a visible difference in tonality, toe speed, grain, etc. even when compensating for temperature to give the same contrast (grain is the most likely to change, even with single-agent developers, because longer in the soup makes for larger grain independent of other factors). Loss of activity shouldn't be a problem as long as room ambient is at or above 68 F.
Kodak's recommendation for 75 F processing with T-Max developer is because shorter time means less grain, and little else, though it also hinges on a developer with low enough activity to have small tank process times of five minutes or longer at that temperature -- you couldn't process most films in HC-110 Dilution B at that temperature, because the process time would be under 4 minutes for most common films. T-Max, however, isn't the ideal developer for much of anything; you're better with XTOL, diluted 1:1 or 1:3 (observing, always, the requirement of 100 ml of stock solution per 80 square inches of film, even if that means a larger tank to hold the 400 ml of working solution for one 35 mm film), for practically all modern films.
And with most developers, if your process time is too short, you can dilute more -- doubling the liquid volume by adding water generally requires between 1.5x and 2x developing time, and care to maintain minimum active developer requirements -- though diluting tends to reduce solvent effects and can convert a fine grain developer into a mild acutance developer; it can also affect film speed (with most slow to medium speed films, more dilution gives higher toe speed because development must be extended to produce normal contrast).
I might mention, I have developed (30 years ago) with HC-110 Dilution B in a dormitory room with the windows blocked off to make it dark (and incidentally eliminating ventilation), in the heart of summer, at 95 F. Process time was under three minutes, and I got perfectly fine negatives, though I don't think I'd want to repeat the operation at this late date...
> The issue is even worse for printing. I use a Jobo print drum on a > besseler motor base. I have no way of keeping the drum submersed. And > I've measured a drift of more than four degrees here. How would I > addjust the print development time from 1 minute (the recommended time > for Ilford Multigrade developer at 68 degrees F) if the temperature is > 75 degrees? The situation is better for printing -- diluting Dektol and other print developers has almost no effect on the print, other than to slow the process time. Whatever you're using for print developer, double your dilution, find your new complete development time, and then adjust for temperature. Since prints should be developed to completion anyway, it won't hurt anything if the print is left in a few seconds too long, but gross overdevelopment can add fog; best to have a process time of around two minutes at your lowest temperature (68 F) and adjust to shorter times (still longer than one minute) for higher temperatures. With Dektol, instead of the 1:2 that seems common now (we used to use it 1:1 when I printed in high school in 1974), you can dilute up to 1:9 (according to Saint Ansel) to gain working time -- in his case, this was for making mural-sized prints, but working at 1:3 instead of 1:2 should get you enough time to keep your development over a minute even at 75 F. Of course, higher dilution in the same tray size means you have to watch more closely and compensate more carefully for developer exhaustion -- but that just means you get even more working time, since the partially used developer takes longer to bring up the print.
Bottom line is that it's more important to have the temperature constant through the process than to have it at a set figure -- you can pretty easily compensate for a different temperature, but you can't begin to be consistent with four degrees of temperature shift during development.
Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning in your darkroom. You can get a small window unit for well under $100, though cutting a hole in the wall and ensuring it's light baffled will probably run the cost up. ;)
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
Phil Glaser - 06 Jul 2004 01:12 GMT > Well, this depends to some extent on the developer. A developer with a > single developing agent should generally have a straight [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > base); just compensate from the published time/temperature chart using > the curve for your dilution. Ok, this helps quite a bit. As it turns out I am using Rodinal. So 75 deg. F. it is!
> With a complex developer, OTOH, perhaps one that contains metol, > phenidone, *and* hydroquinone, the curve is non-linear and some of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > factors). Loss of activity shouldn't be a problem as long as room > ambient is at or above 68 F. Oh, ok, so even for these more complex developers, going up to 75 deg. F. should not pose a problem. Also good to know.
> And with most developers, if your process time is too short, you can > dilute more -- doubling the liquid volume by adding water generally [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > medium speed films, more dilution gives higher toe speed because > development must be extended to produce normal contrast). Now here's an interesting thing. I've been developing TMY in HC-110 diluted 1:63 (unofficial dilution "h") for the accutance affect. After several tests, using a densitomter to get the Zone I exposure to .1 over b+f, I arrived at EI 200. So here I _lost_ a whole stop. That, and the noticably more grainy result, are motivating me to look for a new combination.
> The situation is better for printing -- diluting Dektol and other print > developers has almost no effect on the print, other than to slow the > process time. Whatever you're using for print developer, double your > dilution, find your new complete development time, and then adjust for > temperature. Hmmm. Ok, so Ilford's instructions call for Multigrade developer 1:9 for one minute at 68 deg. F. So at 1:18 that would theoretically be 2 minutes. But the increased temperature, to 75 degrees, should reduce that time. But by how much? Does the time/temp chart at digital truth work for papaer developers as well (http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html).
> Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning > in your darkroom. You can get a small window unit for well under $100, > though cutting a hole in the wall and ensuring it's light baffled will > probably run the cost up. ;) The bathroom in which I develop has a window that's about 10" x 10 " I've never seen an a/c unit that small (though it would be intriguing).
Thanks for your help sorting all this out. This is very helpful.
--Phil
Gary Beasley - 06 Jul 2004 22:08 GMT >> Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning >> in your darkroom. You can get a small window unit for well under $100, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I've never seen an a/c unit that small (though it would be >intriguing). Yyou don't need to have the air conditioner in the window, you just need to get the air into the window. A properly made outside support and an ingenious homebrewed duct/baffle system would get the bathroom cooled down. Best used with a small AC with the control panel to one side. A two channel duct, the intake channel also used to reach the control panel, with louvers on the output to direct the air up and away from the intake will get the job done.
Donald Qualls - 07 Jul 2004 04:43 GMT >>And with most developers, if your process time is too short, you can >>dilute more -- doubling the liquid volume by adding water generally [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > and the noticably more grainy result, are motivating me to look for a > new combination. IOW, you got what most Zonies get -- an EI one stop slower than the ISO speed. I don't call that a speed loss, I call that a disparate method of measuring speed. However...
First, TMY is not a "slow to medium" film; second, you may find it advantageous (especially with HC-110) to reduce agitation and develop for contrast rather than toe density. Done your way, you get a flat negative with EI 200; developed for mid-tones, you'll get a normal negative with EI 400, requiring longer development in the same dilution.
This past weekend, I souped 4 rolls of TMY 120 in HC-110 Dilution G -- 1:119 from USA syrup -- some for 15 minutes at 70 F with reduced agitation (every 3 minutes), some for 15 minutes at 70 F with normal agitation (every minute), and some for 12 minutes at 74 F (compensated for increased temperature) with normal agitation. The roll with reduced agitation is clearly of reduced contrast compared to the others, but all have similar toe speed -- toe is affected primarily by total time/temperature in the soup, regardless of agitation, because local exhaustion doesn't affect lightly exposed areas. Mid-tones, and more so highlights, get less development with less agitation, which reduces contrast (because less agitation gives less fresh developer in areas where it exhausts fastest -- and this is most pronounced at high dilutions). So, when you reduce agitation, you have to develop longer to get the contrast back to normal -- and in the process, you gain speed in the toe. With Dilution G, you can even stand develop -- agitate for the first minute, and then just walk away for up to a couple hours -- for extreme contrast control; I've done this with microfilm emulsions similar to Tech Pan and gotten good pictorial contrast and shadow detail at 2x normal speed for low contrast development.
The key, though, is not to develop until your toe is at 0.1 over B+F; rather to develop to normal contrast and let the toe detemine where Zone I falls.
>>The situation is better for printing -- diluting Dektol and other print >>developers has almost no effect on the print, other than to slow the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > work for papaer developers as well > (http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html). Multigrade is effectively a PQ developer -- it uses Dimezone, which is dimethyl phenidone, and hydroquinone as developing agents. As such, it should follow a similar temperature/activity curve to other PQ developers like HC-110 (though the proportion can affect the curve, and with different phenidone derivatives, it's hard to be sure of the correct slope).
>>Of course, the high tech solution would be to install air conditioning >>in your darkroom. You can get a small window unit for well under $100, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've never seen an a/c unit that small (though it would be > intriguing). If you own the house, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to enlarge the window opening to accomodate a standard A/C unit -- and privacy wouldn't be a problem, since an A/C unit is at least as opaque as a frosted bathroom window, but if that's the only A/C in the house, getting other family members out of the bathroom might become an issue. The alternate would be to mount a standard A/C outside the wall (with controls remoted inside) and duct the cool air output through the window opening; trivial for someone who works with furnace ducting, but installation by a professional would completely swamp the cost of a small A/C unit. Or, if the house has a crawl space, it might be possible to mount the A/C under the sink/counter, and exhaust the hot air into the crawl space (though that would have the effect of making your water, already likely too warm, still warmer).
> Thanks for your help sorting all this out. This is very helpful. > > --Phil
 Signature I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect.
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