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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / August 2004

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Tri-X @ 1600 and D23 ??

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Magdalena W. - 17 Jun 2004 10:15 GMT
Hello,

has anyone ever tried developing Tri-X (new version) pushed to 1600 in
D23? I can't seem to find the developing times anywhere.

Regards
Magdalena
Baz - 17 Jun 2004 12:30 GMT
> has anyone ever tried developing Tri-X (new version) pushed to 1600 in
> D23? I can't seem to find the developing times anywhere.

try cook it this way: twenty celsius degrees for about fourteen minutes
std agitation, if you're on a difflight source. but maybe that
eighteen-twenty same temp 1+1 D23/water will raise up shads a bit
without loose highs. I think D23 is right to cutoff some grain from tx.
sorry can't help you if you are on condlight side. only because I think
condlight is a dog. time ago got good with push tx [new], it was a
grainy stuff to do: lot of celsius, lots of agitation, HC/rod
fiftyfifty. if you want can show you how grainy.same job on D23 was
completely different: less grain, better highs control, lower contrast,
precious shads, easy to print for a more conventional sight.
see you.
Signature

Lo, forever.

Magdalena W. - 18 Jun 2004 10:52 GMT
U?ytkownik "Baz" <baz@baz.org> napisa? w wiadomo?ci

> try cook it this way: twenty celsius degrees for about fourteen minutes
> std agitation, if you're on a difflight source. but maybe that
> eighteen-twenty same temp 1+1 D23/water will raise up shads a bit
> without loose highs.
Thanks, I'll follow your advice. Fortunately I do have a coldlight
enlarger, so it should work well.

> I think D23 is right to cutoff some grain from tx.
TX defintely looks better in D23 than in Id 11/D76.
And the less grainy look is what I want.
Actually, for me, TX + D23 seems to be the "golden standard" :)

Thanks for your advice

Regards,
Magdalena
Baz - 18 Jun 2004 11:49 GMT
> Thanks for your advice

A Pleasure. I'm sure I understood your aim, that's also mine: take _my_
shots.
Signature

Lo, forever.

Magdalena W. - 20 Jun 2004 18:43 GMT
U?ytkownik "Baz" <baz@baz.org> napisa? w wiadomo?ci

> try cook it this way: twenty celsius degrees for about fourteen minutes
> std agitation, if you're on a difflight source.
Thanks again! Your method was tested today, the negative is already
dry. Very nice result - contrast did not shoot up, no loss of
sharpness and tonality. No increase in grain, either - basically, I
don't see a difference between Tri-X shot @ 1600, and @400, when
developed in D23.
Still need to see what it looks like printed, but so far the result is
more than satisfactory.

Best regards,
Magdalena
Nicholas O. Lindan - 20 Jun 2004 19:26 GMT
> No increase in grain, either - basically, I
> don't see a difference between Tri-X shot @ 1600, and @400

Your grain is _that_ bad at 400?  Always more than one
way to look at it.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.

Magdalena W. - 20 Jun 2004 19:49 GMT
Uzytkownik "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:0FkBc.20104
> Your grain is _that_ bad at 400?  Always more than one
> way to look at it.
No, compared to Tri-X developed in ID-11, the grain is almost
nonexistent.

Magdalena
Baz - 20 Jun 2004 19:29 GMT
> U¿ytkownik "Baz" <baz@baz.org> napisa" w wiadomo¶ci
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Best regards,
> Magdalena

I'm glad for you and your job. I'm rather surpised that you can not see
any difference, there are maybe little, but anyway: __keep on shooting
once you discover a good film/brew couple to go with__.

cheerz.

Signature

Lo. Forever

Baz - 20 Jun 2004 19:31 GMT
> U¿ytkownik "Baz" <baz@baz.org> napisa" w wiadomo¶ci
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Best regards,
> Magdalena

I'm glad for you and your job. I'm rather surpised that you can not see
any differences, there are maybe little, but anyway: __keep on shooting
once you discover a good film/brew couple to go with__.

cheerz.

Signature

Lo. Forever

Lloyd Erlick - 20 Jun 2004 19:49 GMT
... - basically, I
>don't see a difference between Tri-X shot @ 1600, and @400, when
>developed in D23.

jun2004 from Lloyd Erlick,

You're in a perfect position to complete the experiment by
exposing Tri-X at EI 200 and developing it in D23. I'd
suggest diluting it 1+3 and developing the film around 14 -
16 minutes. (This might vary from my case to yours ...).
You'd have a pretty definitive set of prints by the time you
were done.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

Magdalena W. - 21 Jun 2004 12:32 GMT
Uzytkownik "Lloyd Erlick" <

> jun2004 from Lloyd Erlick,
>
> You're in a perfect position to complete the experiment by
> exposing Tri-X at EI 200 and developing it in D23. I'd
> suggest diluting it 1+3 and developing the film around 14 -
> 16 minutes.
Thanks, I think I'll try that.

Regards,
Magdalena
Martin Jangowski - 17 Jun 2004 12:47 GMT
> Hello,

> has anyone ever tried developing Tri-X (new version) pushed to 1600 in
> D23? I can't seem to find the developing times anywhere.

Maybe with good reason. D23 is a soft working developer needing
about 1/2 stop more exposure than D76. It is not the thing I'd use
to push a fast film for two stops. Maybe it can be done, but I wouldn't
try it. Use something with phenidone in it like Xtol or Microphen.

Martin
Baz - 17 Jun 2004 13:38 GMT
> Maybe with good reason. D23 is a soft working developer needing
> about 1/2 stop more exposure than D76. It is not the thing I'd use
> to push a fast film for two stops. Maybe it can be done, but I wouldn't
> try it. Use something with phenidone in it like Xtol or Microphen.

Please tell us why one shouldn't use a brew only because you wouldn't.
D23 is strong enough to carry out a job even in push conditions. It
minimizes grain, can push up shads without blocking highs anyway, better
than D76. Nevertheless, one must test _before_ with a scratch roll
shooted in conditions as close as possible to the final situation, a
common [I underline] way to see if a brew meets his own requirements.
And if any stuff posted here has a snap point with truth.
Signature

Lo, forever.

Michael A. Covington - 17 Jun 2004 14:44 GMT
> > Maybe with good reason. D23 is a soft working developer needing
> > about 1/2 stop more exposure than D76. It is not the thing I'd use
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> common [I underline] way to see if a brew meets his own requirements.
> And if any stuff posted here has a snap point with truth.

You can overdevelop Tri-X in any developer and get the midtone speed up to
1600.  However, the shadow speed will still be appreciably lower with D-23
than with something like Xtol.  Different developers do give slightly
different true speed.
Baz - 17 Jun 2004 16:43 GMT
Michael A. Covington <look@www.covingtoninnovations.com.for.address>
wrote:

> You can overdevelop Tri-X in any developer and get the midtone speed up to
> 1600.  However, the shadow speed will still be appreciably lower with D-23
> than with something like Xtol.  Different developers do give slightly
> different true speed.

Well, my POW: testing various brews tells me that the speed loss in low
side with D23, pushing tri-x two stops, we ought remember this, isn't a
drama [all films in many dev show this when pushed and drawbacks are
normal] when I can get a fairly well detailed highs without blocking
them at all. And D23, despite its age and lowtech simple formula, works
well and works better if diluited 1+1 plain dist water, and I think that
simple is better. Anyway Magd should drive a scratchtest before, with
somethinglikextol and with D23 and then choose the one that better meets
her requirements between grain, tones, printing ease and so on. She only
will tell what's best for her job and she asked for D23, we have to
remember.

see you
Signature

Lo, forever.

Baz - 17 Jun 2004 17:31 GMT
Michael A. Covington <look@www.covingtoninnovations.com.for.address>
wrote:

> You can overdevelop Tri-X in any developer and get the midtone speed up to
> 1600.  However, the shadow speed will still be appreciably lower with D-23
> than with something like Xtol.  Different developers do give slightly
> different true speed.

Well, my POV: testing various brews tells me that the speed loss in low
side with D23, pushing tri-x two stops, we ought remember this, isn't a
drama [all films in many dev show this when pushed and drawbacks are
normal] when I can get a fairly well detailed highs without blocking
them at all. And D23, despite its age and lowtech simple formula, works
well and works better if diluited 1+1 plain dist water, and I think that
simple is better. Anyway Magd should drive a scratchtest before, with
somethinglikextol and with D23 and then choose the one that better meets
her requirements between grain, tones, printing ease and so on. She only
will tell what's best for her job and she asked for D23, we have to
remember.

see you
Signature

Lo, forever.

Martin Jangowski - 18 Jun 2004 08:19 GMT
>> Maybe with good reason. D23 is a soft working developer needing
>> about 1/2 stop more exposure than D76. It is not the thing I'd use
>> to push a fast film for two stops. Maybe it can be done, but I wouldn't
>> try it. Use something with phenidone in it like Xtol or Microphen.

> Please tell us why one shouldn't use a brew only because you wouldn't.

Because pushing is a bad idea anyway, and pushing with the wrong tools
is a worse idea. A T-Max 3200 or a Delta 3200 has enough speed without
going to extremes.

> D23 is strong enough to carry out a job even in push conditions. It
> minimizes grain, can push up shads without blocking highs anyway, better
> than D76. Nevertheless, one must test _before_ with a scratch roll
> shooted in conditions as close as possible to the final situation, a
> common [I underline] way to see if a brew meets his own requirements.
> And if any stuff posted here has a snap point with truth.

Well, I made tests like this (with real live objects and sensitometric
measurements)... and found that the advantage of D23 is that it's easy
to mix and not much more. It has about the same characteristics as D76,
just a little slower. I'm sure you can use it to go to astronomical
speeds with any film (why not use PanF@128000...), but there are
just better tools for this.

Martin
Baz - 18 Jun 2004 09:33 GMT
> Because pushing is a bad idea anyway

I agree. But sometimes is useful as useful is pulling. Imagine for a
moment to go outside golden rules of sensitometry and processes and move
on the land of expression: are grain, toe speed, chalky highs, brutal
contrast so crucial? I do not think.
I know, this is a *darkroom forum*, and I live in a weird country where
right film speed doesn't really matter, but a little experimentation is
not so bad if later it targets what was in mind.

> but there are
> just better tools for this.

A tool is a tool, yes, but a bull head made from bicycle's steer and
seat is a fine object to _see_ anyway.

best regards.

Signature

Lo, forever.

Michael Scarpitti - 17 Jun 2004 17:44 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Regards
> Magdalena

The speed of Tri-X in D23 is about 250. If you need 1600, try T-Max 3200.
Donald Qualls - 18 Jun 2004 03:25 GMT
> Hello,
>
> has anyone ever tried developing Tri-X (new version) pushed to 1600 in
> D23? I can't seem to find the developing times anywhere.

In a world that includes Diafine, why would you go to this kind of
trouble to get 400TX to EI 1600?  Three minutes in Bath A, three minutes
in Bath B, water stop, and fix.  You're hanging the film before D-23
would be through developing it for a two-stop push, and you get better
shadow detail, about a full stop of toe speed increase (so your contrast
looks like a one-stop push, not two stops).  Of course, if you're trying
for grain that looks like driveway gravel, you want a low-solvent
developer; try HC-110 Dilution G (1:119 from USA syrup), stand developed
for 90 minutes.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Magdalena W. - 18 Jun 2004 10:48 GMT
Uzytkownik "Donald Qualls" <silent1@ix.netcom.com> napisal w
wiadomosci

> In a world that includes Diafine, why would you go to this kind of
> trouble to get 400TX to EI 1600?
Because in my world (Poland, new member of the EU :)) we have heard of
Diafine, but not laid our hands on it :)
And yes, I realize there are films such as Tmax 3200 (personally I
hate Delta), but sometimes you're in a situation where you need and
want to take photos in poor light conditions - and the only thing you
have in your Domke is a few rolls of TX (because that's the stuff I
always carry).
D23 is better (IMHO) than ID 11 for developing TX. So that's why I
asked about specifically that combination.

Thanks anyway :)
Magdalena
Donald Qualls - 19 Jun 2004 04:14 GMT
> Uzytkownik "Donald Qualls" <silent1@ix.netcom.com> napisal w
> wiadomosci
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> D23 is better (IMHO) than ID 11 for developing TX. So that's why I
> asked about specifically that combination.

If you can't get Diafine, try using HC-110 Dilution G, stand developed
(continuous agitation first minute, then *no* agitation for the
remainder of the development time) for anywhere from 45 to 90 minutes.
With Tri-X, 90 minutes should give EI 1600, with strong compensation to
avoid blocked highlights, and with toe speed increased to 640 or 800.

Be sure you allow at least 3 ml of USA syrup, or 10 ml of European
concentrate, for each 135-36 or 120 roll; use a larger tank with empty
reels as spacers if necessary.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Jorge Omar - 19 Jun 2004 04:24 GMT
In my world, Brazil, most people never saw a Diafine box...

Diafine is easy to mix if you can get the ingredients (phenidone,
hydroquinone, sulfite, metabissulfite, carbonate and borax)
Pls let me know.

Jorge

"Magdalena W." <bagutek@111111111gazeta.pl> wrote in news:caudpo$p77$1
@inews.gazeta.pl:

> Because in my world (Poland, new member of the EU :)) we have heard of
> Diafine, but not laid our hands on it :)
Richard Knoppow - 18 Jun 2004 21:35 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Regards
> Magdalena

  Pushing any film 2 stops is going to be marginal no
matter what developer is used. The ISO speed of a film is
about its maximum for good shadow detail. What happens when
film is pushed is that the overall contrast is raised. Of
course the toe, or shadow part of the curve, is also
increased in contrast. This gives the effect of higher speed
for the shadows but results in excessive contrast for parts
of the film receiving anything like normal exposure. Tri-X
roll and 35mm film, i.e., the ISO-400 stuff, pushes
reasonably well but you would do better with a faster film
like T-Max P3200 or Ilford's equivalent. These are films
with ISO speeds of around 800 to 1000 but which deliver good
quality when pushed.
  There is some variation in the speed delivered by various
developers. D-76/ID-11 is the benchmark. Some Phenidone
containing developers will deliver about 3/4 stop greater
speed (depending on the film) for a given contrast index.
Among such developers are Kodak T-Max and T-Max RS, Kodak
Xtol, Ilford Microphen. Some developers lose a little speed,
Rodinal is an example. D-23 and D-76 have very similar
properties other than D-76 has greater capacity. ]
  Generally pushing film will increase the grain. There is
not much that can be done here. Probably Xtol is the finest
grain of the above, T-Max the best for greatest speed, but
coarser grain. The tonal rendition will be distorted
regardless of the developer because that comes from the
increased overall contrast of pushing.
  Some mistatements are often made about some developers.
The sulfite in D-76 and D-23 acts as a solvent for the
silver halide in the emulsion. In these two developers the
solvent effect is such that it _increases_ film speed
slightly because it makes more development centers in the
halide crystals available to the developer. In developers
like Microdol-X or D-25, used full strength,  which are very
inactive, the solvent has time to destroy some of the latent
image, lowering the film speed. This does not happen in D-23
or D-76 or other similar developers.
  The ISO speed of black & white negative films for still
cameras is measured in a way that results in the lowest
exposure consistent with adequate shadow detail. It assumes
an average contrast that is too high for many users. When
the contrast is lowered (or raised) the ISO speed is no
longer valid. Most films have only about one stop latitude
for underexposure but a great many stops (as many as 12 for
some films) for overexposure. Latitude is the amount of
error in exposure than can be made and still have negatives
with good tonal rendition. This is why its better to use a
faster film than to push a slower one. At some point the
film just runs out of sensitivity and there will be no image
regardless of the kind of developer or the amount of
development, you will just increase the fog level.
  For your application I would suggest T-Max P3200 and
Xtol.
  Now, for pushing, the rule of thumb is to increase
development time about 1.5 times for about a one stop
increase in effective shadow speed. This will also increase
overall contrast about one paper grade. For two stops
increase time to about double normal, maybe a bit more. This
will increse contrast about 2.5 paper grades. The time
variation changes with film and developer. Tabular grain
films like T-Max, Delta, and Fuji Acros, change contrast
faster with time than do conventional films.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Richard Knoppow - 10 Aug 2004 23:57 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Regards
> Magdalena

    Two stops is about the maximum you can push most films.
D-23 is probably not the best choice for pushing. T-Max RS
or Ilford Microphen is a better choice. About double the
normal time will be right. Note that there is not really a
speed increase. What you are doing is to increase the
contrast. The low exposure part of the film curve (the toe)
has lower contrast than the rest so increasing its contrast
will make low exposures printable, of course, it also
results in very high contrast for normally exposed objects
in the picture. There is a limit to the inherent sensitivity
of the emulsion. If there is not enough light NO image is
recorded and no amount of pushing will bring one out. If you
have no choice of film 1600 is just about the limit for
Tri-X (roll and 35mm version). If you do have a choice try
T-Max P3200. At EI 1600 it will have better tonal rendition
and probably finer grain than highly pushed Tri-X.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

 
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