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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2004

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Plumbing photographs

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McLeod - 24 May 2004 14:50 GMT
I am building a darkroom after finally moving to a house large enough
to hold one and would appreciate any links to some good pictures of
plumbing panels to go above the sink.  I want to keep the plumbing
seperate from the sink for ease of construction and so I can set a
piece of plywood on top of the sink to use it to collect clutter as
well.
Gilbert Dumont - 24 May 2004 18:29 GMT
>I am building a darkroom after finally moving to a house large enough
>to hold one and would appreciate any links to some good pictures of
>plumbing panels to go above the sink.  I want to keep the plumbing
>seperate from the sink for ease of construction and so I can set a
>piece of plywood on top of the sink to use it to collect clutter as
>well.

In "The new darkroom handbook" (Focal press) you will find just what
you are looking for.

Gilbert
McLeod - 24 May 2004 19:55 GMT
>In "The new darkroom handbook" (Focal press) you will find just what
>you are looking for.
>
>Gilbert

Yes, I have that book.  It has some very good examples, but I was
looking for real world advice.  If someone has recently plumbed a sink
and discovered that they would do something differently next time, I
would be interested in that type of thing.  How many water outlets
they would have, how many temperature regulated hoses, any sink
finishing advice, etc.  I'm looking for potential improvements to my
sink and plumbing I haven't thought of.  Would you make the sink
ribbed so water can flow under the trays or would you leave it flat
for easier cleaning, etc?
nicholas - 24 May 2004 21:10 GMT
>>In "The new darkroom handbook" (Focal press) you will find just what
>>you are looking for.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> ribbed so water can flow under the trays or would you leave it flat
> for easier cleaning, etc?
It depends on how permanent you expect it to be... If not forever
forever permanent... I use garden fittings for all of my darkroom
plumbing, quick to use, modular and inexpensive. However, I don't use
running water much and or high pressures at all (no pressure valve or
anything like that)...
lost in space - 25 May 2004 17:36 GMT
I'm still using the sink and backpanel I put together in the late 80s.
It looks somewhat like the sink in the link from f/256, except all the
copper pipe is behind the panel. A bit more trouble, but the front of
the panel is cleaner and leaves more room for hanging little racks for
thermometers, stirring sticks, measuring cups and the like. It's
attached to the sink, but is easily removed. I've moved it twice
since building it, and each time have been glad I had the sense to
make it detachable. Also, the base disassembles easily.

By undoing one screw at each end, the panel tilts forward, in case
anything needed to be done in back, though in the 17 years since I
built it, I've never had to do that.

The back panel is two 1" x 6", giving a height of about 10" above the
back of the sink. It's finished in marine varnish. It has filters on
the intake. The sink was built with ACX plywood coated over with a
two-part clear coating like what is used on bartops. After all these
years, just two spots near the drain show signs of seepage. It was
originally 11 ft long, 33" wide and 8" deep. It turns out I never got
into prints big enough to take advantage of the 33" width, so I might
make it a little narrower if I had to do it again. On the top edge of
the front side, where you would rest your elbows, put a piece of 1" x
3" fir, nicely rounded, smoothed and varnished, for leaning on. Makes
a nice elbow rest and was well worth the effort.  The original height
was 36" at the sink bottom, but I've cut it down by 3" (I'm 5'5"
tall). I just finished installing it in its latest location and two
weeks ago printed for the first time in 6 years (!) so I'm just
getting used to some of the other changes I made. It wouldn't fit into
my present space, so I shortened it from 11 feet to 6, losing one
faucet in the process. I now have one unregulated faucet instead of
two on the developing/left end and one regulated faucet on the
washer/right end. The regulated faucet has two hoses, one for mixing
chemicals and the other for the print washer.  I miss the faucet I
took out and the sink length too. Also the spacing of the faucets is
not optimal, but I was too anxious about getting it all back together
to do anything about that.

Good luck and have fun

> >In "The new darkroom handbook" (Focal press) you will find just what
> >you are looking for.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> ribbed so water can flow under the trays or would you leave it flat
> for easier cleaning, etc?
f/256 - 25 May 2004 00:16 GMT
> I am building a darkroom after finally moving to a house large enough
> to hold one and would appreciate any links to some good pictures of
> plumbing panels to go above the sink.  I want to keep the plumbing
> seperate from the sink for ease of construction and so I can set a
> piece of plywood on top of the sink to use it to collect clutter as
> well.

Great ideas here http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/waterpanel.htm

Guillermo
DanSMeyers - 25 May 2004 14:13 GMT
Great ideas here http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/waterpanel.htm

Yeah, if you want to be electrocuted...look closely.

Dan
f/256 - 25 May 2004 14:41 GMT
> Great ideas here http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/waterpanel.htm
>
> Yeah, if you want to be electrocuted...look closely.

Still, there are great IDEAS in there, besides, the asker wanted PLUMBING
panels examples, Claudio's panel plumbing wise will not electrocute you, it
just carries water!   Claudio has combined the electrical and plumbing
panels into one, the asker doesn't need to put them together, nor did he ask
for electric panels.  Having said that, Claudio has taken safety measures by
adding a GFI breaker feeding the outlets  and grounding the copper pipes and
probably he is not messy when spraying water!.  About the only change I'd do
to the electric side of Claudio's panel would be to place the outlets right
at the top edge of the panel.

Guillermo
Alexis Neel - 25 May 2004 23:12 GMT
I have pictures, somewhere, that I think you will find helpful.  They
are of one of my many darkrooms I've build over the last 20 years, and
comes from a professional, productive perspective.  It might take a
few days to find them, if they aren't packed already (we're moving
back to the states from Europe at the end of June)  If I can't find
them, would a detailed drawing do?

Alexis

www.alexisneel.com

"f/256" <askme@my.email.pls> wrote in message news:<_1Isc.161389
$0qd.3186@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> > Great ideas here http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/waterpanel.htm
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Guillermo
Gregory W Blank - 26 May 2004 02:18 GMT
> I have pictures, somewhere, that I think you will find helpful.  They
> are of one of my many darkrooms I've build over the last 20 years, and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> www.alexisneel.com

I would like to see them as well, I'll be build a new darkroom perhaps in the
next 6 months. Each has been progressively bigger, the next one I am thinking
300-400 square feet. The one I currently have is 10x12.
Signature

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McLeod - 26 May 2004 04:18 GMT
>I have pictures, somewhere, that I think you will find helpful.  They
>are of one of my many darkrooms I've build over the last 20 years, and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>www.alexisneel.com

Anything is helpful.  Due to the size of the undertaking I'm just
trying to save myself some heartache later on.
Alexis Neel - 26 May 2004 11:01 GMT
Ok guys, here is what I came up with.  A drawing, with some
explainations, is here (200k file):
http://alexisneel.com/SinkPlumbing.jpg

I tried to explain it as best I could, but if you have any other
questions, just email me.  Excuse the crudness of the drawings, but I
think you will get the idea.  Everything is copper or brass, except
for the stainless steel flex lines.  This is important so you won't
get corrosion later.  The lines are painted appropriate colors (with
spray paint) to easily identify which line is which.
I set it up this way with the idea of ease of use, and thus
productivity.  It might be overkill for some, but after 30 years of
printing, I hate things to be difficult to use.

Hope this gives you a good idea.

Alexis

> >I have pictures, somewhere, that I think you will find helpful.  They
> >are of one of my many darkrooms I've build over the last 20 years, and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Anything is helpful.  Due to the size of the undertaking I'm just
> trying to save myself some heartache later on.
McLeod - 26 May 2004 22:24 GMT
>Ok guys, here is what I came up with.  A drawing, with some
>explainations, is here (200k file):
>http://alexisneel.com/SinkPlumbing.jpg

Thanks very much.  Good explanation and good idea to be able to
isolate different sections of the plumbing.  Some of the  diagrams I
have seen include a faucet that is unregulated.  Have you ever felt
the need for anything like that?
Alexis Neel - 27 May 2004 08:12 GMT
Unregulated how?  In my drawing, there are multiple water valves
(orange colored spots using the orange square reference valve) on each
line, cold and hot (directly from main supply and used for cooling
chemicals down and hot for clean up) and the green, which represents
the mixed 68degree temp.  On those valves, I would use a plastic "L"
fitting that screws into the valve, but has the burr on the other side
to hook up plastic water tubing.  The only regulated line is the
green, if I understand you correctly.  Also with these valves, you
only need to pull the handle 90 degrees to get full water flow (I
rarely used that kind of pressure), making on and off easy and quick
to do, compared to your normal turn faucet type of fixture.

Did that answer your question?  If not, don't hesitate to ask again.

Alexis

> >Ok guys, here is what I came up with.  A drawing, with some
> >explainations, is here (200k file):
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> have seen include a faucet that is unregulated.  Have you ever felt
> the need for anything like that?
Donald Qualls - 26 May 2004 03:22 GMT
> Great ideas here http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/waterpanel.htm
>
> Yeah, if you want to be electrocuted...look closely.
>
> Dan

If in fact all power runs through the GFI, as indicated in the text, it
shouldn't be a problem.

Signature

I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
                                                    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages  http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages     http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

DanSMeyers - 27 May 2004 00:58 GMT
I still don't think it's a thinking man's decision to put so many outlets that
close to water (and a spray hose at that!) Why risk it?

Dan
Gregory W Blank - 27 May 2004 01:55 GMT
> I still don't think it's a thinking man's decision to put so many outlets that
> close to water (and a spray hose at that!) Why risk it?
>
> Dan

A good shock is always a great way to put some life in those
pictures of grandma ;-0
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Claudio Bonavolta - 29 May 2004 13:40 GMT
> Great ideas here http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/waterpanel.htm
>
> Yeah, if you want to be electrocuted...look closely.
>
> Dan

Still alive ...
But you're right, depending on how you work, it's wise to put them higher.

Regards,
Signature

Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch

Ken Nadvornick - 26 May 2004 23:26 GMT
> I am building a darkroom after finally moving to a house large enough
> to hold one and would appreciate any links to some good pictures of
> plumbing panels to go above the sink.  I want to keep the plumbing
> seperate from the sink for ease of construction and so I can set a
> piece of plywood on top of the sink to use it to collect clutter as
> well.

Here's a snapshot (116 KB) of my basement sink and water panel.  Is this the
type of picture(s) you had in mind?  (Sorry for the hotspot on the left.
This was made months ago for a completely different purpose with my wife's
P&S and not a great deal of advance planning.)

  http://home1.gte.net/kjnadvor/darkroom/WetSide2.jpg

Hot and cold supply lines enter from the wall between the filters.  Each
line first passes upward through its own shut off valve to allow for filter
cartridge changes and other maintenance.  All of the fixtures (filters,
regulator, etc.) are back-threaded through the panel and isolated with union
joints so they can be unscrewed and removed directly from the front side
without removing the panel itself.

I routinely shut off the supply lines and bleed the pressure from the pipes
when not using the darkroom.  (I'm hoping this will lengthen the lifespan of
my water temperature regulation unit.)

The hot line filter (orange) is left, cold line is right.  The supply lines
are then split, allowing for the filtered, but otherwise unregulated, mixing
faucet on the left side of the sink.  I find a manually regulated outlet
very handy for equipment washing and sink rinsing.

Automatic temperature regulation is handled by a Hass Intellifaucet K250
(the square black unit below the valves) which is fed by the other side of
the split supply lines.  This unit has a single tempered water outlet.  I
split this outlet into two separate outlet lines.

The first tempered outlet line drops directly down to the second faucet from
the left.  This faucet is double-filtered like the left-hand one, but adds
the attributes of temperature regulation, flow regulation and settable flow
timing, courtesy of the Hass unit.

The second tempered outlet split leads to the third faucet (on the right).
This faucet is shown connected (through an anti-siphon check valve) to a
16x20 Versalab print washer (hiding under the towel on the far right).  This
third faucet adds one more additional attribute of water control.  It passes
through a water volume flow meter gauge (the upright clear acrylic thingy
above the faucet itself).  This gives me a reliable measure of
gallons-per-minutes for the print washer.

In addition, the Versalab washer sits in its own custom-made epoxy overflow
catch basin (hidden by the sink stand and counter in the foreground) that is
designed to be just larger than the washer's outside dimensions.  This is
intended to be a last line of defense if something should go terribly wrong
while prints are slow-washing after I go to bed, as it will allow the washer
to completely overflow without submerging my basement.

You may also notice that the entire lengths of both split tempered outlet
lines are covered with black foam pipe insulation.  This works to keep the
post-regulated water at its correct temperature until it reaches the
regulated faucets.  Also, all controls and gauges have been located at my
personal eye-level for ease of use.  Since the flow meter requires input
from below, this choice made for a somewhat convoluted piping layout for the
third faucet.  Everything does, however, work perfectly.

As a non-professional hobbyist, this arrangement has worked well for me for
over a year now.  I sweated all the copper piping myself without a great
deal of experience and it turned out fine.  I even spray-coated the pipes
with a polyurethane overcoat just for aesthetic purposes to keep the new
copper pipes untarnished and shiny over time.

Hope this helps with some additional ideas.  I would be happy to make and
post a few close-up photos (without hot spots!), if you feel that might
help.  Just let me know.

Ken
McLeod - 27 May 2004 23:40 GMT
>> I am building a darkroom after finally moving to a house large enough
>> to hold one and would appreciate any links to some good pictures of
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
>Ken

Very nice...I can see how it might be good to have an unregulated
faucet and a couple of temp controlled ones.  I don't thik I need any
more shots of it, it's all clear to me.  I have other questions about
the size of your sink.  Is it homemade or bought?  Is it big enough?
Do you think an 8 ft sink would be too big or are you a proponent of
the bigger, the better?
Ken Nadvornick - 28 May 2004 06:38 GMT
Regarding this photo,

> >   http://home1.gte.net/kjnadvor/darkroom/WetSide2.jpg

> Very nice...I can see how it might be good to have an unregulated
> faucet and a couple of temp controlled ones.  I don't thik I need any
> more shots of it, it's all clear to me.  I have other questions about
> the size of your sink.  Is it homemade or bought?  Is it big enough?
> Do you think an 8 ft sink would be too big or are you a proponent of
> the bigger, the better?

The black main sink is an original "The Sink" model manufactured by Delta.
I believe the current incarnation is called "The Sink II."  I'm unsure of
the difference(s).  Mine was purchased new when I first purchased my house.
It then "aged to perfection" in my garage rafters for about 12 years before
finally being installed.  (Don't ask... ;)  It's 6-feet wide with a built-in
backsplash panel and duckboard ribs and is made from ABS plastic.

The sink stand is homemade using standard dimensional lumber.  It's main
design purpose is to *fully* support the sink bottom via custom-fitted
plywood sheets, as opposed to the Delta-supplied thin metal frame which I
believe may simply "hang" the sink by its outside edges.  So constructed, I
can
easily stand in it without fear of damaging it (I'm 6-foot 6-inches,
218-pounds).  This means I have the (tested) ability to insert a standpipe
into the drain and completely fill the sink with water without the weight
causing it to buckle and/or collapse.

Regarding the choice of size, that was primarily limited by the size of the
room.  By building a custom epoxy catch basin sink for the Versalab washer,
I was able to move the washer outside of the main sink (technically this was
not necessary, but I felt better doing it this way), thereby reserving the
main sink for trays only.  Between the two I therefore have the working
equivalent of an 8-foot sink.

In all honesty, however, I do wish the main sink were bigger.  At 6-feet
across I can use up to 10 8x10 trays simultaneously (in two rows, although 8
is a more reasonable limit).  But for 11x14 I can fit only 4 trays, for
16x20 only 3 trays and for 20x24 only 2 trays.  If you are a two-bath fixer
using a water holding tray (as I am) this is obviously a problem which must
be solved by stacking trays for the larger sizes.  Not as convenient, but
still workable.  One could also use vertical processors, or a single tray of
fixer, but I prefer not to.  So yes, I guess I am a "proponent of the
bigger, the better."  Unfortunately, this was the maximum darkroom space I
was able to negotiate from my better half...

Ken
Alexis Neel - 28 May 2004 14:45 GMT
> Very nice...I can see how it might be good to have an unregulated
> faucet and a couple of temp controlled ones.  I don't thik I need any
> more shots of it, it's all clear to me.  I have other questions about
> the size of your sink.  Is it homemade or bought?  Is it big enough?
> Do you think an 8 ft sink would be too big or are you a proponent of
> the bigger, the better?

I've found my sink photo's and will post them in a day or so.

As for sink size, I prefer bigger, and the one in the photo's that I
will post is 14'. and is able to handle 24" trays with a little room
left over (30" front to back").  But thats just me.  If you go to all
the trouble of making the sink, why short change yourself later.

Alexis
Alexis Neel - 29 May 2004 17:06 GMT
Ok here they are.  This might have been posted twice...google and my
newsserver were acting strange.

http://alexisneel.com/sink1.jpg
http://alexisneel.com/sink2.jpg
http://alexisneel.com/sink3.jpg
http://alexisneel.com/sink4.jpg

#1 is small room and shows how lines come in from main lines.  Sink is
12'
#2 is film room and shows the filters, with valves on either side.
Also the "L" shaped plastic things that screw into valves and plastic
tubing goes into.
#3 shows the larger room, and similar view to #1, but also work
station on left.  Sink is 15'
#4 is toning area.  Mixed line to each washer, and several for washing
prints during toning.  Hot for clean up and cold just because.  Prints
were dried on screens underneath that slid out for easy placement
after the wash.  Also another good view of main supply lines coming
thru wall, and then to the access lines.

Hope this helps.

Alexis
Claudio Bonavolta - 29 May 2004 13:37 GMT
> I am building a darkroom after finally moving to a house large enough
> to hold one and would appreciate any links to some good pictures of
> plumbing panels to go above the sink.  I want to keep the plumbing
> seperate from the sink for ease of construction and so I can set a
> piece of plywood on top of the sink to use it to collect clutter as
> well.

There is a nice book about darkroom building:
The New Darkroom Handbook (A complete Guide to the Best Design,
Construction, and Equipment) by Joe DeMaio, Robin Worth and Dennis Curtin at
Focal Press (ISBN 0-240-80260-8)
The sections about plumbing and electricity are impressive ...

Or, my first experience in plumbing is here:
http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/waterpanel.htm
You probably should put the electrical plugs higher than what I did ...

Good construction,
Signature

Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch

rick - 29 May 2004 16:57 GMT
Ok, here are 4 views of my sinks.  I hope they will explain the drawing I
did earlier.

http://alexisneel.com/sink1.jpg
http://alexisneel.com/sink2.jpg
http://alexisneel.com/sink3.jpg
http://alexisneel.com/sink4.jpg

Number 1 shows how the water comes in from the main line (small room,
sink 12')
Number 2 is the film room and shows the filter system, with on/off valves
on either side of them.
Number 3 shows basically the same as #1 but in the larger room (sink is
15') with work station on the left.
Number 4 shows the toning area, with a mixed line to each washer, various
mixed cold and hot outlets and one cold.  Prints were on screens beneath
that would slide out individually.  Fan and quartz heater on one side if
needed to dry quickly.

Hope this helps.

Alexis
Pieter Litchfield - 30 May 2004 13:22 GMT
very nice setup.

> Ok, here are 4 views of my sinks.  I hope they will explain the drawing I
> did earlier.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Alexis
Alexis Neel - 31 May 2004 18:45 GMT
Thanks

> very nice setup.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> >
> > Alexis
 
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