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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2004

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DRY MOUNT QUESTION

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Michael Bonnycastle - 21 May 2004 02:31 GMT
Hello everyone,
I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today,
and it has gone very well mostly.  I have read in some instructions
to dry out all the materials first. I did not do this...another friend told
me he didn't so I tried without.  Hoever, I have noticed on the larger prints
I could see some minute air bubbles?, either that or something underneath....

I am thinking this problem is because I did not dry the materials out,
I have been using 3/16 foamboard as my mounting board....do I dry this out
too...in addition to the RC print??

THanks much for the help,
Mike
Ken Hart - 21 May 2004 05:21 GMT
> Hello everyone,
> I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I have been using 3/16 foamboard as my mounting board....do I dry this out
> too...in addition to the RC print??

_Generally_, the pre-heat step to dry everything out was important for
fiber-based prints and cardboard type mounting board. If the materials
weren't suffiently dried, the finished mount could warp. I would think that
this is not as important with RC prints and foamboard, since both are not as
likely to retain moisture/humidity. OTOH, it probably wouldn't hurt, except
perhaps to "soften" the RC paper surface if it gets too hot.

I've never had problems with air bubbles trapped under the print, but the
tiniest bit of dust can make a bump on the print surface. Does your air
bubble have a smooth dome-like appearence, or is there a "point" bump?
Cleanliness is just as important around the dry-mount press as elsewhere in
the darkroom.

I mount a lot of prints on foamcore, using a spray adhesive (Duro
All-Purpose Spray Adhesive, available at WalMart), and the heated dry mount
press to "set" the adhesive.

You are using a mounting tissue/film designed for RC paper, and being
careful with the press temperature, right? Too hot, and you can have a real
mess on your hands, actually on your press.

Ken Hart
Michael Bonnycastle - 21 May 2004 15:30 GMT
"Ken Hart" <kwhart@aec.nu> wrote in message > I've never had problems with air bubbles trapped under the print, but the
> tiniest bit of dust can make a bump on the print surface. Does your air
> bubble have a smooth dome-like appearence, or is there a "point" bump?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Ken Hart

Hi,
Actually on looking at the mounted prints' surface, the bubbles appear
more
to be minute dimples, tiny pits.  These are 16x20 Glossy RC prints
that I mounted I mounted on the foam board, at about 180 degrees, and
I left them
in the press for just over a minute.  There is no damage or melting of
the
print, so that seems fine.  I met a photographer who said he uses
regular
foambard for most of his dry mounting substrates and says it works
great.
I suppose it Could be the 'dimples' are caused by the heat effecting
the board?
Thanks much for the helpful comments.

Mike
Gregory W Blank - 21 May 2004 17:22 GMT
> Hi,
> Actually on looking at the mounted prints' surface, the bubbles appear
> more
> to be minute dimples, tiny pits.  

Your burning the top layer of emulsion off the RC paper,....in small areas,
a sheet of release paper should help. If you really want to use foamcore.
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Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 May 2004 19:05 GMT
> Hi,

Ho.

> Actually on looking at the mounted prints' surface, the
> bubbles appear more to be minute dimples, tiny pits.

The problem is dirt/gunk above the print.  Platens quite
often have lots of crud on them (like, oh, melted RC prints...)
and the crud makes little indents the prints.  Also possible
the print was put in the press dirty or if you used a sheet
of paper between the print and the platen (you are supposed
to) the paper may have stuff stuck to it.

Cleaning the platen is a PITA.  That, and folks with sloppy
technique using the press, often result in platens that
resemble a miniature model of the Alps.

If the platen is the problem you will need "Bienfang Platen
Cleaner".  This is a paste solvent and can be applied without
demounting the platen.  $32 for 2oz (funny, n'est ce pas?)
from Calumet.  You might try trichloroethylene (different
from 1-1-1 Trichloroethane, no longer available) or
dichloromethane.  Liquid solvents are a pain as they
require removing the platen or working with an upside
down propped open press.  Now you know why platens are
left dirty.

The usual solution is to Place 2-3 sheets clean 20-lb paper,
or a sheet of 2-ply mounting board, between the platen
and the print.

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Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
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Mike King - 21 May 2004 19:33 GMT
----------

> > Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> or a sheet of 2-ply mounting board, between the platen
> and the print.

Another great source of "crud" is dry mount adhesive.  Either from untrimmed
prints or sloppy technique.  I worked for one guy that tacked his tissue to
the back of prints using one corner of his press, build up was incredible.
Platen cleaner is specially formulated to dissolve dry mount adhesive.
After a cleaning session or two you'll always use a cover sheet when
drymounting.  Dirty cover sheets get thrown, the release paper Bienfang/Seal
sells is silicone slick--goo doesn't stick so they don't get tossed as often
but good heavy brown kraft paper also works for commercial (non-archival)
work.

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darkroommike

k - 21 May 2004 05:48 GMT
foamboard?!

ive never tried that but if its what im thinking of,
the typical foam board is paper with foam sandwiched between,
as long as the print is dry you should be ok, the bubbles would be
my guess that something expanded in the foam due to the temperature.

k

> Hello everyone,
> I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> THanks much for the help,
> Mike
Mike - 21 May 2004 17:14 GMT
> foamboard?!

What do you mount prints onto?

--Mike
k - 22 May 2004 06:16 GMT
i use acid free illustration boards.

k

> > foamboard?!
>
> What do you mount prints onto?
>
> --Mike
Gregory W Blank - 21 May 2004 12:56 GMT
>  Hoever, I have noticed on the larger prints
> I could see some minute air bubbles?, either that or something underneath....

More than likely dirt or dust between the print, the tissue or the matteboard.
Don't use foamcore "unless it is" acid free. Regular Foamcore turns yellow in
time (It has alot of acid in it).
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Mike King - 21 May 2004 14:57 GMT
RC prints don't retain moisture so that is not the issue here, however it
doesn't hurt to dry out/preheat  the mount, even foamcore has paper surfaces
and (if your humidity is high) that may be the issue.  Additionally if the
mount is preheated the press will not have to heat print, mounting tissue
AND mount when you put your assembly in the press.

On the other hand, you can also get bubbles if your press temp is too low or
if you are trying to use a FB type tissue with RC prints (e.g. Seal MT5).
The temp required for MT5 to bond well approaches the melting temp of RC
prints so you may not be getting a good bond.

With conventional FB prints it's always a good idea to preheat each piece
since you can actually get steam forming little bubbles under the print.

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darkroommike

----------

> Hello everyone,
> I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> THanks much for the help,
> Mike
Michael Bonnycastle - 21 May 2004 22:40 GMT
> RC prints don't retain moisture so that is not the issue here, however it
> doesn't hurt to dry out/preheat  the mount, even foamcore has paper surfaces
> and (if your humidity is high) that may be the issue.  Additionally if the
> mount is preheated the press will not have to heat print, mounting tissue
> AND mount when you put your assembly in the press.

Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did
indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three
layers of release paper, with one folded over sandwiching the
print/tissue/board assembly.  So assuming the crud did permeate the
release paper layers, next step will be to try the Beinfang release
Board, in place of the tissue, in the hopes shielding the print from
the platen crud.

thanks again,
Mike
Gregory W Blank - 21 May 2004 23:06 GMT
> Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did
> indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> thanks again,
> Mike

Why not just get some platen cleaner?
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Michael Bonnycastle - 22 May 2004 03:18 GMT
Gregory W Blank <gblank@despamit.net> wrote in message news:<A3vrc.965> > Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did
> > indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three
> > layers of release paper, with one folded over sandwiching the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Why not just get some platen cleaner?

I think I'll do just that...I see United Manufacturers carries it for
$23.95, so I'll order up a jar.

Thanks again,
Mike
Dan Quinn - 22 May 2004 09:50 GMT
> > Why not just get some platen cleaner?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks again,
> Mike

 Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price?                    Dan
Mike King - 22 May 2004 14:06 GMT
Nope, it's a paste with some chemicals with l-o-o-o-n-g names (I don't have
or need a jar so I don't remember the ingredients (since I bought my own
press new-from a camera store that had had it in inventory over ten years- I
got a great price), I've never had to clean up after other peoples bad
habits), Bon Ami is much simpler but not enough "bite" to get this crud off.

Signature

darkroommike

----------

>
> > > Why not just get some platen cleaner?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
>   Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price?                    Dan
Donald Qualls - 22 May 2004 18:13 GMT
>   Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price?                    Dan

More likely acetone at a sucker price.  :)

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David Nebenzahl - 22 May 2004 19:00 GMT
On 5/22/2004 10:13 AM Donald Qualls spake thus:

>>   Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price?
>
> More likely acetone at a sucker price.  :)

Yep. That's one of the things I'd try to clean it; other choices would be
ordinary household cleaner (I use Simple Green), alcohol (isopropyl or methyl)
and petroleum solvent (paint thinner, lighter fluid, like that). After all,
it's a metal surface you're cleaning, for chrissake.

"Offical approved" cleaner for $24 a pop? I don't think so.

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I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively
imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised
by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news
articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so
they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.

- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress

dr bob - 22 May 2004 14:04 GMT
> Gregory W Blank <gblank@despamit.net> wrote in message news:<A3vrc.965> > Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did
> > > indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Thanks again,
> Mike

Won't a $9 bottle of acetone work?
Dan Quinn - 22 May 2004 21:55 GMT
> Won't a $9 bottle of acetone work?

 What would it be on the plates that would require a solvent?
Perhaps some cooked adhesive?                             Dan
David Nebenzahl - 22 May 2004 23:30 GMT
On 5/22/2004 1:55 PM Dan Quinn spake thus:

>> Won't a $9 bottle of acetone work?
>>
>   What would it be on the plates that would require a solvent?
> Perhaps some cooked adhesive?

Probably.

I'm in the printing biz, and it sounds like one could do well with some stuff
we use known as MRC (which I just discovered stands for "metering roller
cleaner", so named because it's intended for cleaning the rubber water
metering rollers on offset presses). It'll take dried ink off of anything with
just a little effort. The stuff is a fairly volatile soup containing acetone,
alcohol and a couple other solvents. (I need to get ahold of the MSDS for this
stuff to see what all it is I'm breathing.)

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I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively
imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised
by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news
articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so
they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.

- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress

Gregory W Blank - 23 May 2004 00:12 GMT

> I'm in the printing biz, and it sounds like one could do well with some stuff
> we use known as MRC (which I just discovered stands for "metering roller
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> alcohol and a couple other solvents. (I need to get ahold of the MSDS for this
> stuff to see what all it is I'm breathing.)

 I worked for a webpress printing place for about 2 months,...
all I could stand working 11:30 to 7am. Anyway the stuff we
used to clean plates smelled funky but was supposed to be non
hazardous, and non toxic. Boy did it clean those plates. Of course
we were using soy based ink.  

I guess what threw me over the top was finding out that a guy in my same
job had been killed about two months before,......flattened by a four foot tall
five foot wide roll of paper that slipped off a fork truck.
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David Nebenzahl - 23 May 2004 23:03 GMT
On 5/22/2004 4:12 PM Gregory W Blank spake thus:

>> I'm in the printing biz, and it sounds like one could do well with some
>> stuff we use known as MRC (which I just discovered stands for "metering
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> job had been killed about two months before,......flattened by a four foot
> tall five foot wide roll of paper that slipped off a fork truck.

Yikes; now that's *real* printing, complete with sky-high workman's comp rates
(at least here in California). Fortunately, my shop is a small sheetfed shop,
so about the worst that can happen is stubbing your toe on a stack of paper.

I've never seen a web press run but have always wanted to. I ought to go over
to one of the large shops here in town and watch them at work. I especially
would like to see the flying paster at work. What size presses did they have
where you worked?

Plate cleaner? Shoot, you could probably squirt that on your sandwich at lunch
with no ill effects. (Apart from gagging a little.)

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articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so
they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.

- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress

Gregory W Blank - 24 May 2004 01:08 GMT
> I've never seen a web press run but have always wanted to. I ought to go over
> to one of the large shops here in town and watch them at work. I especially
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Plate cleaner? Shoot, you could probably squirt that on your sandwich at lunch
> with no ill effects. (Apart from gagging a little.)

The worse part about my job (lacky) was cleaning the paper dust off the machine
and under it (in rather large piles). The webpress's were very dusty. Someone stated that
the cellulose wouldn't hurt breathing it in (I have my doubts) . Its been quite a few years but
seem IIRC that the press ran about 42" +or minus, we did perfed barlined computer paper
for government offices. I was a helper, and we stacked and boxed paper
on pallets all night long.

The plates were actually rubber blankets that went around the rollers, the ink was
automatically picked up and feed by the rollers an onto the blanket (plate).

I am not sure however what a flying paster is, but one thing I did see was
an automatic inspection system that unrolled and rerolled certain types of
paper while stroboscopically flashing the paper above and below. (They imprinted
checks also) on a four color press so I guess they were looking for defects in the roll.
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David Nebenzahl - 24 May 2004 01:56 GMT
On 5/23/2004 5:08 PM Gregory W Blank spake thus:

> I am not sure however what a flying paster is, but one thing I did see was
> an automatic inspection system that unrolled and rerolled certain types of
> paper while stroboscopically flashing the paper above and below.

Ah, a flying paster is an even kewler piece of machinery; it's a device that
lets you glue (paste) a new roll of paper to the old one as the old one
reaches its end. This is all done on the fly, while the press is running at
full speed; the paster has a whole shitload of rollers, sometimes in an
arrangement 2 or 3 stories tall, that go up and down to adjust the tension on
the web. The end of the new roll is pasted onto the old web--at speed, mind
you--and the press goes on its merry way with the new roll, while the old one
is cut off and taken off (hopefully not smushing anyone dead in the process).

One of the things I want to see before I die.

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I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively
imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised
by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news
articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so
they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.

- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress

Sandy - 24 May 2004 05:52 GMT
> Hello everyone,
> I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> THanks much for the help,
> Mike

I've read all the very good replies to your request here and I can
share what I learned in college as I majored in fine art photography.

Now keep in mind I'm just sharing what my dept. head taught us.

First, we NEVER were allowed to use foam-core board in the heat press,
ever or he'd hack our fingers off. It is possible that the heat press
is heating the foam and it's sinking inward. Do a test on just the
foam and observe it. We were only allowed to use spray adhesive on
foam- core.

For dry mounting we used the appropriate dry mount sheet for the
paper, adjusted the temp appropriately for the paper (RC will be
different than fiber based) and only used a clean press and archival
matt board, but we first lined up the print with diagrams and used a
tacking iron to first tack it to the back of the print and then lift
it up and tack it to the board, then used thick paper top and bottom
and pressed it in.

As well, all prints must be air dried or pushed through the dryer
beforehand.

Hope that helps! Good luck.
Michael Bonnycastle - 24 May 2004 23:47 GMT
bluesandybaby@yahoo.com (Sandy) wrote in message > First, we NEVER were allowed to use foam-core board in the heat press,
> ever or he'd hack our fingers off. It is possible that the heat press
> is heating the foam and it's sinking inward. Do a test on just the
> foam and observe it. We were only allowed to use spray adhesive on
> foam- core.

Good point Sandy, thanks for the suggestion....Hadn't heard much
actual
experience in dry mounting on foam core, other than a prolific veteran
photographer I ran into at a craft show, who told me it makes a great
substrate, and I also saw it used as an example on a mounting
video.....however if this is happening directly as a result of heat
only
and not the 'gunk' on the press, then I'll be changing board....
thanks for the helpful comments,
Mike
 
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