Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2004
DRY MOUNT QUESTION
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Michael Bonnycastle - 21 May 2004 02:31 GMT Hello everyone, I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today, and it has gone very well mostly. I have read in some instructions to dry out all the materials first. I did not do this...another friend told me he didn't so I tried without. Hoever, I have noticed on the larger prints I could see some minute air bubbles?, either that or something underneath.... I am thinking this problem is because I did not dry the materials out, I have been using 3/16 foamboard as my mounting board....do I dry this out too...in addition to the RC print??
THanks much for the help, Mike
Ken Hart - 21 May 2004 05:21 GMT > Hello everyone, > I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I have been using 3/16 foamboard as my mounting board....do I dry this out > too...in addition to the RC print?? _Generally_, the pre-heat step to dry everything out was important for fiber-based prints and cardboard type mounting board. If the materials weren't suffiently dried, the finished mount could warp. I would think that this is not as important with RC prints and foamboard, since both are not as likely to retain moisture/humidity. OTOH, it probably wouldn't hurt, except perhaps to "soften" the RC paper surface if it gets too hot.
I've never had problems with air bubbles trapped under the print, but the tiniest bit of dust can make a bump on the print surface. Does your air bubble have a smooth dome-like appearence, or is there a "point" bump? Cleanliness is just as important around the dry-mount press as elsewhere in the darkroom.
I mount a lot of prints on foamcore, using a spray adhesive (Duro All-Purpose Spray Adhesive, available at WalMart), and the heated dry mount press to "set" the adhesive.
You are using a mounting tissue/film designed for RC paper, and being careful with the press temperature, right? Too hot, and you can have a real mess on your hands, actually on your press.
Ken Hart
Michael Bonnycastle - 21 May 2004 15:30 GMT "Ken Hart" <kwhart@aec.nu> wrote in message > I've never had problems with air bubbles trapped under the print, but the
> tiniest bit of dust can make a bump on the print surface. Does your air > bubble have a smooth dome-like appearence, or is there a "point" bump? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ken Hart Hi, Actually on looking at the mounted prints' surface, the bubbles appear more to be minute dimples, tiny pits. These are 16x20 Glossy RC prints that I mounted I mounted on the foam board, at about 180 degrees, and I left them in the press for just over a minute. There is no damage or melting of the print, so that seems fine. I met a photographer who said he uses regular foambard for most of his dry mounting substrates and says it works great. I suppose it Could be the 'dimples' are caused by the heat effecting the board? Thanks much for the helpful comments.
Mike
Gregory W Blank - 21 May 2004 17:22 GMT > Hi, > Actually on looking at the mounted prints' surface, the bubbles appear > more > to be minute dimples, tiny pits. Your burning the top layer of emulsion off the RC paper,....in small areas, a sheet of release paper should help. If you really want to use foamcore.
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Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 May 2004 19:05 GMT > Hi, Ho.
> Actually on looking at the mounted prints' surface, the > bubbles appear more to be minute dimples, tiny pits. The problem is dirt/gunk above the print. Platens quite often have lots of crud on them (like, oh, melted RC prints...) and the crud makes little indents the prints. Also possible the print was put in the press dirty or if you used a sheet of paper between the print and the platen (you are supposed to) the paper may have stuff stuck to it.
Cleaning the platen is a PITA. That, and folks with sloppy technique using the press, often result in platens that resemble a miniature model of the Alps.
If the platen is the problem you will need "Bienfang Platen Cleaner". This is a paste solvent and can be applied without demounting the platen. $32 for 2oz (funny, n'est ce pas?) from Calumet. You might try trichloroethylene (different from 1-1-1 Trichloroethane, no longer available) or dichloromethane. Liquid solvents are a pain as they require removing the platen or working with an upside down propped open press. Now you know why platens are left dirty.
The usual solution is to Place 2-3 sheets clean 20-lb paper, or a sheet of 2-ply mounting board, between the platen and the print.
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Mike King - 21 May 2004 19:33 GMT ----------
> > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > or a sheet of 2-ply mounting board, between the platen > and the print. Another great source of "crud" is dry mount adhesive. Either from untrimmed prints or sloppy technique. I worked for one guy that tacked his tissue to the back of prints using one corner of his press, build up was incredible. Platen cleaner is specially formulated to dissolve dry mount adhesive. After a cleaning session or two you'll always use a cover sheet when drymounting. Dirty cover sheets get thrown, the release paper Bienfang/Seal sells is silicone slick--goo doesn't stick so they don't get tossed as often but good heavy brown kraft paper also works for commercial (non-archival) work.
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k - 21 May 2004 05:48 GMT foamboard?!
ive never tried that but if its what im thinking of, the typical foam board is paper with foam sandwiched between, as long as the print is dry you should be ok, the bubbles would be my guess that something expanded in the foam due to the temperature.
k
> Hello everyone, > I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > THanks much for the help, > Mike Mike - 21 May 2004 17:14 GMT > foamboard?! What do you mount prints onto?
--Mike
k - 22 May 2004 06:16 GMT i use acid free illustration boards.
k
> > foamboard?! > > What do you mount prints onto? > > --Mike Gregory W Blank - 21 May 2004 12:56 GMT > Hoever, I have noticed on the larger prints > I could see some minute air bubbles?, either that or something underneath.... More than likely dirt or dust between the print, the tissue or the matteboard. Don't use foamcore "unless it is" acid free. Regular Foamcore turns yellow in time (It has alot of acid in it).
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Mike King - 21 May 2004 14:57 GMT RC prints don't retain moisture so that is not the issue here, however it doesn't hurt to dry out/preheat the mount, even foamcore has paper surfaces and (if your humidity is high) that may be the issue. Additionally if the mount is preheated the press will not have to heat print, mounting tissue AND mount when you put your assembly in the press.
On the other hand, you can also get bubbles if your press temp is too low or if you are trying to use a FB type tissue with RC prints (e.g. Seal MT5). The temp required for MT5 to bond well approaches the melting temp of RC prints so you may not be getting a good bond.
With conventional FB prints it's always a good idea to preheat each piece since you can actually get steam forming little bubbles under the print.
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> Hello everyone, > I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > THanks much for the help, > Mike Michael Bonnycastle - 21 May 2004 22:40 GMT > RC prints don't retain moisture so that is not the issue here, however it > doesn't hurt to dry out/preheat the mount, even foamcore has paper surfaces > and (if your humidity is high) that may be the issue. Additionally if the > mount is preheated the press will not have to heat print, mounting tissue > AND mount when you put your assembly in the press. Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three layers of release paper, with one folded over sandwiching the print/tissue/board assembly. So assuming the crud did permeate the release paper layers, next step will be to try the Beinfang release Board, in place of the tissue, in the hopes shielding the print from the platen crud.
thanks again, Mike
Gregory W Blank - 21 May 2004 23:06 GMT > Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did > indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > thanks again, > Mike Why not just get some platen cleaner?
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Michael Bonnycastle - 22 May 2004 03:18 GMT Gregory W Blank <gblank@despamit.net> wrote in message news:<A3vrc.965> > Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did
> > indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three > > layers of release paper, with one folded over sandwiching the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Why not just get some platen cleaner? I think I'll do just that...I see United Manufacturers carries it for $23.95, so I'll order up a jar.
Thanks again, Mike
Dan Quinn - 22 May 2004 09:50 GMT > > Why not just get some platen cleaner? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks again, > Mike Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price? Dan
Mike King - 22 May 2004 14:06 GMT Nope, it's a paste with some chemicals with l-o-o-o-n-g names (I don't have or need a jar so I don't remember the ingredients (since I bought my own press new-from a camera store that had had it in inventory over ten years- I got a great price), I've never had to clean up after other peoples bad habits), Bon Ami is much simpler but not enough "bite" to get this crud off.
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> > > > Why not just get some platen cleaner? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price? Dan Donald Qualls - 22 May 2004 18:13 GMT > Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price? Dan More likely acetone at a sucker price. :)
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David Nebenzahl - 22 May 2004 19:00 GMT On 5/22/2004 10:13 AM Donald Qualls spake thus:
>> Is that Bon Ami at a sucker price? > > More likely acetone at a sucker price. :) Yep. That's one of the things I'd try to clean it; other choices would be ordinary household cleaner (I use Simple Green), alcohol (isopropyl or methyl) and petroleum solvent (paint thinner, lighter fluid, like that). After all, it's a metal surface you're cleaning, for chrissake.
"Offical approved" cleaner for $24 a pop? I don't think so.
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dr bob - 22 May 2004 14:04 GMT > Gregory W Blank <gblank@despamit.net> wrote in message news:<A3vrc.965> > Thanks much for all the help on this. Inspected the Platen and did > > > indeed notice some tiny bits of 'crud'....though I did use three [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks again, > Mike Won't a $9 bottle of acetone work?
Dan Quinn - 22 May 2004 21:55 GMT > Won't a $9 bottle of acetone work? What would it be on the plates that would require a solvent? Perhaps some cooked adhesive? Dan
David Nebenzahl - 22 May 2004 23:30 GMT On 5/22/2004 1:55 PM Dan Quinn spake thus:
>> Won't a $9 bottle of acetone work? >> > What would it be on the plates that would require a solvent? > Perhaps some cooked adhesive? Probably.
I'm in the printing biz, and it sounds like one could do well with some stuff we use known as MRC (which I just discovered stands for "metering roller cleaner", so named because it's intended for cleaning the rubber water metering rollers on offset presses). It'll take dried ink off of anything with just a little effort. The stuff is a fairly volatile soup containing acetone, alcohol and a couple other solvents. (I need to get ahold of the MSDS for this stuff to see what all it is I'm breathing.)
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Gregory W Blank - 23 May 2004 00:12 GMT
> I'm in the printing biz, and it sounds like one could do well with some stuff > we use known as MRC (which I just discovered stands for "metering roller [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alcohol and a couple other solvents. (I need to get ahold of the MSDS for this > stuff to see what all it is I'm breathing.) I worked for a webpress printing place for about 2 months,... all I could stand working 11:30 to 7am. Anyway the stuff we used to clean plates smelled funky but was supposed to be non hazardous, and non toxic. Boy did it clean those plates. Of course we were using soy based ink.
I guess what threw me over the top was finding out that a guy in my same job had been killed about two months before,......flattened by a four foot tall five foot wide roll of paper that slipped off a fork truck.
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David Nebenzahl - 23 May 2004 23:03 GMT On 5/22/2004 4:12 PM Gregory W Blank spake thus:
>> I'm in the printing biz, and it sounds like one could do well with some >> stuff we use known as MRC (which I just discovered stands for "metering [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > job had been killed about two months before,......flattened by a four foot > tall five foot wide roll of paper that slipped off a fork truck. Yikes; now that's *real* printing, complete with sky-high workman's comp rates (at least here in California). Fortunately, my shop is a small sheetfed shop, so about the worst that can happen is stubbing your toe on a stack of paper.
I've never seen a web press run but have always wanted to. I ought to go over to one of the large shops here in town and watch them at work. I especially would like to see the flying paster at work. What size presses did they have where you worked?
Plate cleaner? Shoot, you could probably squirt that on your sandwich at lunch with no ill effects. (Apart from gagging a little.)
 Signature I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.
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Gregory W Blank - 24 May 2004 01:08 GMT > I've never seen a web press run but have always wanted to. I ought to go over > to one of the large shops here in town and watch them at work. I especially [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Plate cleaner? Shoot, you could probably squirt that on your sandwich at lunch > with no ill effects. (Apart from gagging a little.) The worse part about my job (lacky) was cleaning the paper dust off the machine and under it (in rather large piles). The webpress's were very dusty. Someone stated that the cellulose wouldn't hurt breathing it in (I have my doubts) . Its been quite a few years but seem IIRC that the press ran about 42" +or minus, we did perfed barlined computer paper for government offices. I was a helper, and we stacked and boxed paper on pallets all night long.
The plates were actually rubber blankets that went around the rollers, the ink was automatically picked up and feed by the rollers an onto the blanket (plate).
I am not sure however what a flying paster is, but one thing I did see was an automatic inspection system that unrolled and rerolled certain types of paper while stroboscopically flashing the paper above and below. (They imprinted checks also) on a four color press so I guess they were looking for defects in the roll.
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David Nebenzahl - 24 May 2004 01:56 GMT On 5/23/2004 5:08 PM Gregory W Blank spake thus:
> I am not sure however what a flying paster is, but one thing I did see was > an automatic inspection system that unrolled and rerolled certain types of > paper while stroboscopically flashing the paper above and below. Ah, a flying paster is an even kewler piece of machinery; it's a device that lets you glue (paste) a new roll of paper to the old one as the old one reaches its end. This is all done on the fly, while the press is running at full speed; the paster has a whole shitload of rollers, sometimes in an arrangement 2 or 3 stories tall, that go up and down to adjust the tension on the web. The end of the new roll is pasted onto the old web--at speed, mind you--and the press goes on its merry way with the new roll, while the old one is cut off and taken off (hopefully not smushing anyone dead in the process).
One of the things I want to see before I die.
 Signature I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.
- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress
Sandy - 24 May 2004 05:52 GMT > Hello everyone, > I have been doing my first dry mounting last night and today, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > THanks much for the help, > Mike I've read all the very good replies to your request here and I can share what I learned in college as I majored in fine art photography.
Now keep in mind I'm just sharing what my dept. head taught us.
First, we NEVER were allowed to use foam-core board in the heat press, ever or he'd hack our fingers off. It is possible that the heat press is heating the foam and it's sinking inward. Do a test on just the foam and observe it. We were only allowed to use spray adhesive on foam- core.
For dry mounting we used the appropriate dry mount sheet for the paper, adjusted the temp appropriately for the paper (RC will be different than fiber based) and only used a clean press and archival matt board, but we first lined up the print with diagrams and used a tacking iron to first tack it to the back of the print and then lift it up and tack it to the board, then used thick paper top and bottom and pressed it in.
As well, all prints must be air dried or pushed through the dryer beforehand.
Hope that helps! Good luck.
Michael Bonnycastle - 24 May 2004 23:47 GMT bluesandybaby@yahoo.com (Sandy) wrote in message > First, we NEVER were allowed to use foam-core board in the heat press,
> ever or he'd hack our fingers off. It is possible that the heat press > is heating the foam and it's sinking inward. Do a test on just the > foam and observe it. We were only allowed to use spray adhesive on > foam- core. Good point Sandy, thanks for the suggestion....Hadn't heard much actual experience in dry mounting on foam core, other than a prolific veteran photographer I ran into at a craft show, who told me it makes a great substrate, and I also saw it used as an example on a mounting video.....however if this is happening directly as a result of heat only and not the 'gunk' on the press, then I'll be changing board.... thanks for the helpful comments, Mike
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