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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2004From selenium to fixer. Oops!
While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently dropped the print in the fixer tray. No staining occurred and I quickly rinsed the print with water. Did I affect the archival qualities of the paper, and should I toss the fixer? Thanks, Mike Yes, dump the fixer. Everything else should be ok. > While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently dropped the > print in the fixer tray. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Mike >Yes, dump the fixer. Everything else should be ok. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> Thanks, >> Mike may204 from Lloyd Erlick, I don't see any reason to discard the fixer. Selenium toner does (or, at least, can...) stain prints if the prints are acidic when they enter the toner, but I doubt the fixer (acid, no doubt) will stain prints that are fixed in it. Certainly the fixer could be used for prints that are not meant to be final, display, sale quality. The dropped print is probably unaffected. I prefer a low-capacity fixer specifically because it is discarded frequently in any case. A case like this is a fine argument if favor of Dan Quinn's single-use fixer. regards, --le > >> While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently > >> dropped the print in the fixer tray. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > like this is a fine argument if favor of Dan > Quinn's single-use fixer. regards,> --le I have read that the A. thiosulfate in KRST is to prevent death in the event something like the above described mistake is made. The A. thio. has some capacity for absorbing hydrogen selenide gas evolved when selenium toner incounters an acid bath. Sodium thiosulfate will likely work just as well; KSST, Kodak Slow Selenium Toner. I don't think one print will spoil the fix. Silver complexes held in the fix could react with the selenium at some concentration to produce stain and/or precipitate. I say some concentration because thiosulfate will complex with some silver even if sulfide is present. Cyanide and thiosulfate are the only substances which will complex with the iodide and sulfide for any practical purpose; perhaps the selenide should also be added to that short list. An aside: I'm at odds with Dr. M. J. Gudzinowicz. Several of his observations have me wondering; acid fix only, only full strength fix works, and more. Of course it's all very conditional and takes carefull reading. Dan > > >> While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently > > >> dropped the print in the fixer tray. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > works, and more. Of course it's all very conditional and takes > carefull reading. Dan Not true. The thiosulfate in KRST is to allow the Selenium to work. The amount of selenium in the toner is small and miniscule in the diluted toner. The danger of any gas is insignificant. I think this is perhaps a confusion with hydrogen cyanide gas, which is absorbed by hypo. In fact hypo is a standard antidote for cyanide poisoning. KRST is not hazardous nor are most other packaged photo chemicals.  Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently dropped the > print in the fixer tray. > > No staining occurred and I quickly rinsed the print with water. > > Did I affect the archival qualities of the paper, No. But then you should check back in 200 years just to make sure. You should have given the print a bath in HCA and a good wash, though. > and should I toss the fixer? I wouldn't, but then I'm cheap. Selenium toner has a small amount of fixer in it so they are compatible. However the selenium may combine with the undeveloped silver salts of the next print to be processed (big ? here) and do 'something'. Richard is the man who would Know(ppow). SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ > While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently dropped the > print in the fixer tray. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Did I affect the archival qualities of the paper, and should I toss the > fixer? Yes because you didn't rewash the paper fully again. If you used KRST then your selenium toner has fixer in it. If you didn't then you made your own "rapid" fixer. ;-) This is because KRST has fixer in it, that is the smell--ammonia. > > While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently dropped the > > print in the fixer tray. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > your own "rapid" fixer. ;-) This is because KRST has fixer in it, that > is the smell--ammonia. What I did was give the print a 15 minute wash followed by about a dozen rinses of filling up the tray and dumping it. I'll save the fix for crappy RC stuff. Thanks, Mike > While removing a print from the selenium 1:9 tray, I accidently dropped the > print in the fixer tray. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Mike KRST has a relatively large component of ammonium thiosulfate ("rapid" fixer) in it to facilitate the toning reactions. Since the print must be thoroughly washed after toning you didn't do anything to it. Just wash as normal. While the Selenium toner _might_ contaminate the fixer I doubt that enough got into it to do any damage. In any case fixer is an expendilble with very limited capacity. On of the curiousities of KRST is that it does not stain when there is an excess of hypo, so prints can be toned directly from the fixing bath. You should test first because the acid in the hypo _might_ cause a deposit of elemental selenium resulting in a stain. Where the KRST is reasonably diluted this does not happen. Kodak used to recommend KRST at a 1:9 dilution as an alternative to the sodium sulfide test solution for the presence of unfixed silver halide. It has the advantage of being nearly odorless and long lived. However, the test fails if there is a lot of hypo left in the paper or film so the sulfide test remains the standard because it can be used directly after fixing. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com > Kodak used to recommend KRST at a 1:9 dilution as an > alternative to the sodium sulfide test solution for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the sulfide test remains the standard because it can be used > directly after fixing. Are you saying that the sulfide test will detect only the unfixed silver? The sulfide will have no effect on the fixed silver? Dan > > Kodak used to recommend KRST at a 1:9 dilution as an > > alternative to the sodium sulfide test solution for the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Are you saying that the sulfide test will detect only the unfixed > silver? The sulfide will have no effect on the fixed silver? Dan I think you have to put a drop on an area normally containing no silver. In other words, a "clear" area of a negative (edge) or the paper-white area of a print (edge). I do this occasionally when in doubt and can testify that it works. Truly, dr bob. > > > ... the sulfide test remains the standard because it can be used > > > directly after fixing. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Truly, dr bob. Mr. Knoppow is saying that the sulfide test will work with a print directly after the fix; no rinse, no hca, no wash, no dry. Do you agree with that? Dan > > > > ... the sulfide test remains the standard because it can be used > > > > directly after fixing. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > print directly after the fix; no rinse, no hca, no wash, no dry. > Do you agree with that? Dan Dan: Personally, I rinse the negative/print copiously prior to the tests, but theoretically, it should not matter. I can't help believing that there must be some carryover of some silver salts, some of which must be subject to the "test". A substantial rinsing should eliminate most of this, at least sufficiently to keep from masking the desired effect(s). Truly, dr bob. > > > > ... the sulfide test remains the standard because it can be used > > > > directly after fixing. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > print directly after the fix; no rinse, no hca, no wash, no dry. > Do you agree with that? Dan That's it. Sufide, by itself, will tone halide but has little effect on metallic silver. The sulfide solution also tones fixer reaction products so it gives a very good indication of the degree of fixing. A polysulfide toner, like Kodak Brown Toner will tone both halide and metallic silver. The sulfide test is used on a clear area of a print or film so that the stain is clearly visible. This is a very simple and reliable test. KRST, diluted 1:9 also works well, but as stated before isn't reliable for unwashed film or prints. KRST has the advantage over sodium sulfide of being odor free and more stable but the sulfide is less sensitive to the condition of the emulsion. Signature--- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com |
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