Are the acceptable silver concentrations for film and paper fixer the
same, assuming the same dilutions and formulas are being used? That
is, your hypocheck produces a certain ammount precipitate when your
paper fix is bad. If it produces the same ammount when you check your
film fixer, then the film fixer is bad?
Dan Quinn - 01 May 2004 23:06 GMT
> Are the acceptable silver concentrations for film and paper fixer the
> same, assuming the same dilutions and formulas are being used?
In my mind that is not an easy question. As an example take Azo
contact speed paper. I contains silver chloride and nothing more.
Both sodium and ammonium thiosulfate will complex great amounts
of silver in the presence of chloride.
Neither of the thiosulfates will complex more than a little
silver in the presence of iodide. Chloride/bromide mixed emulsions
fall between the two extrems.
> That is, your hypocheck produces a certain ammount precipitate when
> your paper fix is bad. If it produces the same ammount when you check
> your film fixer, then the film fixer is bad?
The hypocheck is an iodide check. It will give a "bad" reading at
very low levels of silver. To some extent it is a test of the fixer's
capacity for silver in the presence of iodide and that is very low.
I did a test where the fix with a few drops of hypocheck tested bad
but, IIRC, forty drops of bromide "hypocheck" produced no turbidity
at all.
The capacity of the fixer for silver in the presence of chloride
and bromide is much higher. Where there is chloride and bromide only,
I think a whole bunch of good fixer may be going down the drain.
FWIW, Dr. M. J. Gudzinowicz does not think any hypo check worth
a damn. That helps a lot does'nt it. What do you think? Dan
Jevin Sweval - 05 May 2004 22:17 GMT
> > Are the acceptable silver concentrations for film and paper fixer the
> > same, assuming the same dilutions and formulas are being used?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> FWIW, Dr. M. J. Gudzinowicz does not think any hypo check worth
> a damn. That helps a lot does'nt it. What do you think? Dan
I guess what I really wanted to ask is how can I make sure I don't
use bad fixer with film or paper. I am taking photo class at school so
it's not possible for me to know how much use the fix has had. We
have seperate supplies of the Kodak rapid fix for film processing
outside of the darkroom and paper processing inside of it. It always
seems to be a hit and miss with the film fix. The standard procedure
is to use straight fix and then pour it back into the jug. The lower
level students will keep the fix even if it is completely shot. I
don't really know any way of knowing if it is bad before trying it and
seeing if it takes forever to fix (which is very bad when you have a
limited ammount of time to work). By then, my time has been wasted but
others won't because I toss the fix.
For the paper fix the problem isn't as bad. When a drop of hypocheck
produces a lingering ammount of precipitate then I just dump it. I
assumed thats how the hypocheck worked. Silver iodide has such a low
solubility compared to silver chloride/bromide in the fix that they
simply lowered the concentration of potassium iodide so that it would
only precipitate much when the silver chloride/bromide concentrations
were high enough. I'd hate to guess at how many prints go through the
fix before its dumped. It is probably at least 25 or 30.
Dan Quinn - 06 May 2004 10:12 GMT
> Silver iodide has such a low
> solubility compared to silver chloride/bromide in the fix that they
> simply lowered the concentration of potassium iodide so that it would
> only precipitate much when the silver chloride/bromide concentrations
> were high enough.
"...that they simply lowered the concentration of potassium iodide..."
"They", and just who are they? I assume the low strength is used for
paper and the high strength is used for film. Do you know for sure that
the test solution is prepared in two strengths? Dan
Richard Knoppow - 03 May 2004 05:56 GMT
> Are the acceptable silver concentrations for film and paper fixer the
> same, assuming the same dilutions and formulas are being used? That
> is, your hypocheck produces a certain ammount precipitate when your
> paper fix is bad. If it produces the same ammount when you check your
> film fixer, then the film fixer is bad?
They are not the same. In general, film is more tollerant
of small amounts of residual halide than paper. The reason
is the much finer grain of paper emulsions, especially warm
toned ones.
Given that, IMHO, Hypocheck is probably not sensitive
enough for use with a single bath fixer for archival fixing.
The capacity of a single bath, especially for paper, is
extremely limited. Ilford gives 10 8x10 prints per GALLON as
the limit. For commercial standars, i.e., 20 year print
life, the capacity is much larger. For ecomonical fixing use
a two bath system. This has from four to ten times the
capacity of a single bath for either film or paper for
archival fixing. An Iodide test solution, like Hypocheck,
can be used for the first bath to determine when its at the
end of its life. Since the allowable silver content is much
greater for the first bath of a two bath system such a test
is reasonably reliable. Kodak has complete instructions for
using a two bath system in the _Kodak Black-and-White
Darkroom Dataguide_ and probably other sources. The use of a
sulfite wash aid, like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, following
fixing will also help to extend the life of the fixer
because it can remove some of the otherwise insoluble fixer
reaction products left by incomplete fixing.
If the silver halide left over after development is not
removed pretty completely it will eventually decompose and
attack the image silver and also cause staining in the low
density areas. Really good fixing is as important as
thorough washing to film and print life.

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Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com