Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2004
Stopping Down Enlarger Lens Focus Question Newbie
|
|
Thread rating:  |
SofaKing - 17 Apr 2004 20:10 GMT I'm a beginner. So go easy. I'm printing B&W (first prints done this week in fact). When I stop down my enlarger lens (exposure around 20secs. at f22) does focusing becoming less critical, ie. is it similar to a camera in that I'm increasing depth of field therefore I can be out a bit? What are the advantages to stopping down as opposed to using lower f-stop values (f5.6). Am I losing contrast or sharpness in the print? Any grain issues? Does leaving the light on that long change any of the characteristics of tone distribution? Thx.
David Nebenzahl - 17 Apr 2004 21:07 GMT On 4/17/2004 12:10 PM SofaKing spake thus:
> I'm a beginner. So go easy. OK.
> I'm printing B&W (first prints done this week in fact). When I stop down my > enlarger lens (exposure around 20secs. at f22) does focusing becoming less > critical, ie. is it similar to a camera in that I'm increasing depth of > field therefore I can be out a bit? Yes; it increases the depth of field of the projected image in exactly the same way as with a camera taking a picture. Smaller aperture = greater depth of field = more latitude in misfocusing.
> What are the advantages to stopping down as opposed to using lower f-stop > values (f5.6). Just what was described above: increased overall sharpness.
> Am I losing contrast or sharpness in the print? Nope.
> Any grain issues? Only that what grain is visible will be more sharply in focus. That could be good or bad, depending.
> Does leaving the light on that long change any of the characteristics of > tone distribution? Nope; you're apparently thinking of reciprocity failure characteristics. I don't think this becomes a problem with photo paper until your exposures are into the range of several minutes or more.
 Signature I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.
- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress
SofaKing - 17 Apr 2004 21:51 GMT So maybe other than being slower to print no real disadvantages mostly advantages, good. I also like stopping down because it's a little bit more forgiving when I want to increase or descrease exposure too. Thx.
> On 4/17/2004 12:10 PM SofaKing spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > don't think this becomes a problem with photo paper until your exposures are > into the range of several minutes or more. Francis A. Miniter - 18 Apr 2004 01:49 GMT I always refocus after stopping down. Ctein, I think it was, once wrote in the journal Photo Techniques about focus shifts that occur after the addition of filtration. He stated that by adding yellow or magenta filtration, you effectively alter the average wave length of the light going through the enlarger, thus affecting the plane of sharpest focus and causiong a slight focus shift to occur. While I am not sure that he is right, I do find that once I have added filtration and stopped down, I do need to refocus to get the sharpest possible image.
Francis A. Miniter
>So maybe other than being slower to print no real disadvantages mostly >advantages, good. I also like stopping down because it's a little bit more [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > >>into the range of several minutes or more. Dan Quinn - 19 Apr 2004 00:03 GMT > ...focus shifts that occur after the addition of filtration.
> ...by adding yellow or magenta filtration, you effectively alter > the average wave length of the light ... thus affecting the plane > of sharpest focus ... > I do find that once I have added filtration and stopped > down, I do need to refocus to get the sharpest possible image. Or, stop down, add filtration, then refocus? It's been some time since this subject has come up. As I recall stopping down was in itself the matter of concern. I think a case MAY be made for refocus due to one or the other or both togeather; that is filtration and/or stopping down. I use graded paper; no filters needed. I am concerned though with focus shift on stopping down. Off hand I can't think of any reason a smaller aperature would change the focal length of a lens. I know I don't worry about it when a camera lens is involved. Perhaps a LARGE format user could shed some light. And some dark for that matter. Dan
jjs - 18 Apr 2004 00:23 GMT > Just what was described above: increased overall sharpness. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Only that what grain is visible will be more sharply in focus. That could be > good or bad, depending. With my 35mm printing (on a focomat), stopping down to F22 decreases sharpness and blurs grain.
David Nebenzahl - 18 Apr 2004 00:48 GMT On 4/17/2004 4:23 PM jjs spake thus:
>> Just what was described above: increased overall sharpness. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > With my 35mm printing (on a focomat), stopping down to F22 decreases > sharpness and blurs grain. So you're encountering diffraction effects, right? Or focus shift, one.
 Signature I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.
- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress
jjs - 18 Apr 2004 01:29 GMT > On 4/17/2004 4:23 PM jjs spake thus:
> > With my 35mm printing (on a focomat), stopping down to F22 decreases > > sharpness and blurs grain. > > So you're encountering diffraction effects, right? Or focus shift, one. Yes, diffraction. I can watch the grain go soft through the focusing scope. Refocusing has no effect. So I always print stopped down two from wide open. If the exposure is too short to comfortably dodge and burn, I use an ND filter.
Bruce - 18 Apr 2004 00:05 GMT > When I stop down my enlarger lens (exposure around 20secs. at f22) >does focusing becoming less critical, No, all the image focus is in the negative, your enlarger will not make focus where there is none. Oft time a grain focuser is used to focus on the grain of the negative which has nothing to do with image focus. If you missed focus at the camera stage you will not get it back of come close at the printing stage. In the darkroom all you can do focuse the negative to sharpness and let the image fall where it will.
> What are the advantages to stopping down as opposed to using lower f-stop values (f5.6).
Every lens has a "sweet spot". It is usually mid way between max and min apature, maybe 5.6 or 8. Enlarging lenses are flat focus lenses in that they project a flat negative image onto a flat piece of paper, unlike camera lenses.. All the DOF the image has in in the negative, closing the apature will not increase image DOF. It will lengthen exposure time which is a good thing. I personally like exposures of more than 30 seconds and if burning or dodging is involved I will stop down as much as possible to insure enough time for burning or dodging.
_________________ Ready, Fire, AIM. Bruce Brooklyn, N.Y.
David Nebenzahl - 18 Apr 2004 00:38 GMT On 4/17/2004 4:05 PM Bruce spake thus:
>> When I stop down my enlarger lens (exposure around 20secs. at f22) >>does focusing becoming less critical, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In the darkroom all you can do focuse the negative to sharpness and let the > image fall where it will. You missed my point, or maybe I didn't state it clearly enough: I'm not claiming that greater depth-of-field at the enlargement state can make up for poor focus in the picture-taking stage. (That would be quite a feat, with metaphysical and quantum-mechanics implications.) What I meant is that stopping down an enlarging lens gives greater depth of field so far as the negative being projected is concerned, and will allow more focusing errors to still result in a sharp image of the negative (which may well be out of focus, but that's another story).
 Signature I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.
- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress
David Nebenzahl - 18 Apr 2004 00:46 GMT On 4/17/2004 4:38 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:
> On 4/17/2004 4:05 PM Bruce spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > claiming that greater depth-of-field at the enlargement state can make up for > poor focus in the picture-taking stage. Whoops: realized too late that you weren't replying to *my* reply. But the point remains, since I don't believe the O.P. was asking whether stopping down an enlarging lens could increase depth of field *in the original negative*. (At least I hope they weren't.) In other words, when he asked "does focusing become less critical?", he was referring to focusing the enlarging lens, not the camera lens.
 Signature I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.
- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress
CCDee - 18 Apr 2004 05:09 GMT Yes I was referring to focussing the enlarger.
> On 4/17/2004 4:38 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > become less critical?", he was referring to focusing the enlarging lens, not > the camera lens. Randy Stewart - 18 Apr 2004 01:04 GMT > I'm a beginner. So go easy. I'm printing B&W (first prints done this week in > fact). Your questions are very good. Some of the replies are not.
>When I stop down my enlarger lens (exposure around 20secs. at f22) > does focusing becoming less critical, ie. is it similar to a camera in that > I'm increasing depth of field therefore I can be out a bit? Small aperature will increase depth of field, but not enough to overcome poor initial focus.
What are the
> advantages to stopping down as opposed to using lower f-stop values (f5.6). None, as to the resulting image.
> Am I losing contrast or sharpness in the print? You are loosing sharpness because of optical defraction when you use your lens much below f8.0. This a matter of light itself, not lens design or construction. The only way a close comparision would not clearly show this for you would be if you were using a very low quality lens or were out of focus.
> Any grain issues? No.
>Does leaving the light on that long change any of the characteristics of tone
> distribution? No. If you want longer print times, which can be useful, use a lower output bulb or insert neutral density filtration above the negative, and [assuming 35mm printing with a 50mm lens] keep the lens aperature in the 5.6 - 8.0 range.
CCDee - 18 Apr 2004 05:14 GMT F8. Got it. So my print times will be shortening as well. If I was printing 20 seconds at F22 is there a rule of thumb of calculating how much time opening the aperture by three stops...um let me guess 20, 10, 5, 2.5 secs? sound about right?
> > I'm a beginner. So go easy. I'm printing B&W (first prints done this week > in [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > 35mm printing with a 50mm lens] keep the lens aperature in the 5.6 - 8.0 > range. David Nebenzahl - 18 Apr 2004 05:24 GMT On 4/17/2004 9:14 PM CCDee spake thus:
> F8. Got it. So my print times will be shortening as well. If I was printing > 20 seconds at F22 is there a rule of thumb of calculating how much time > opening the aperture by three stops...um let me guess 20, 10, 5, 2.5 secs? > sound about right? Yes. It's an actual rule, not a rule of thumb.
 Signature I was quickly apprised that an "RSS feed" was not, as I had naively imagined, some new and unspeakable form of sexual debauchery practised by young persons of dubious morality, but a way of providing news articles to the cybernetic publishing moguls of the World Wide Wait so they can fill the airwaves with even more useless drivel.
- Cynical shop talk from comp.publish.prepress
Michael Scarpitti - 18 Apr 2004 04:12 GMT > I'm a beginner. So go easy. I'm printing B&W (first prints done this week in > fact). When I stop down my enlarger lens (exposure around 20secs. at f22) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > leaving the light on that long change any of the characteristics of tone > distribution? Thx. Use f/5,6 to f/ 8,0, no smaller. That is the optimum aperture for most enlarging lenses.
CCDee - 18 Apr 2004 05:17 GMT What are the visible artifacts of diffraction, what will I see or not see, in my prints if I compare one printed at say f5.6 to one printed at f22? Why does Rodenstock make lens that stop down that far then? Will anyone but me notice?
> > I'm a beginner. So go easy. I'm printing B&W (first prints done this week in > > fact). When I stop down my enlarger lens (exposure around 20secs. at f22) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Use f/5,6 to f/ 8,0, no smaller. That is the optimum aperture for most > enlarging lenses. Michael Scarpitti - 18 Apr 2004 21:31 GMT > What are the visible artifacts of diffraction, what will I see or not see, > in my prints if I compare one printed at say f5.6 to one printed at f22? Why > does Rodenstock make lens that stop down that far then? Will anyone but me > notice? If you have a high-mangification grain focusser, you can see which is the optimum aperture by looking at a projected image and running the aperture scale from wide open to minimum. If it is a good lens, the optimum will be about 5,6 to 8,0 (for a 50mm).
Stefan Patric - 18 Apr 2004 05:41 GMT > I'm a beginner. So go easy. I'm printing B&W (first prints done this > week in fact). When I stop down my enlarger lens (exposure around [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in the print? Any grain issues? Does leaving the light on that long > change any of the characteristics of tone distribution? Thx. Stopping down any lens reduces optical abberations, increases depth of field, depth of focus, contrast and resolution, but only to a point. After that point, resolution, contrast, and "sharpness" degrades due to diffraction. Most lenses, enlarger or taking, obtain the "best" balance between the improvements gained by stopping down and the degradation due to diffraction 2 to 3 stops down from wide open.
Most b&w papers perform best in the 10 to 60 second range. With longer exposures, they begin to suffer from reciprocity failure -- loose speed, change contrast -- just like film does with exposures longer than they were designed for.
To obtain critical focus, buy a grain magnifying focusers. It needn't be an expensive one. (I use a 20 year old Patterson that I bought new for about $20 and it works just fine.) After composing and focusing wide open, stop down to your printing aperture and check the focus to be sure there has been no focus shift. Most modern Plasmat type enlarging lenses, that is, 6 elements in 4 groups, don't suffer from this, but cheaper lenses with less elements are more apt to.
 Signature Stefan Patric tootek2@yahoo.com
|
|
|