Printing: Developer + Stop = Sizzle

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Francis - 18 Apr 2004 16:37 GMT

Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
sound was produced when the paper was put into the stop bath. This
does not seem good for the paper or me for that matter. The first
couple times I heard this I thought my neighbor's kids where playing
with a hose outside. Then I realized I would hear this sound only when
the paper was put in the stop bath. I was using Sprint Developer(new
fresh), Freestyle Arista Stop (I had this for a while), and Arista
Fix. Thanks.

Francis

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Nick Zentena - 18 Apr 2004 17:23 GMT

> Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
> my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> fresh), Freestyle Arista Stop (I had this for a while), and Arista
> Fix. Thanks.

Carbonate in the developer is mixing with acid in the stop to release gas.
I don't think it's overly bad for you but I'm having trouble remembering what
gas it is. It's not the best thing for film but for paper I don't think it's
an issue.

Nick

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lloydNO@NOthe-wire.com - 18 Apr 2004 19:27 GMT

>> Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
>> my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Nick

apr1804 from Lloyd Erlick,

It's carbon dioxide, and it's not a health
problem. It is, however, completely unnecessary,
and probably indicates the stop bath is mixed at
too high concentration. Could it be that someone
has set it out by pouring from the container, not
bothering to dilute?

I like the scent and flavour of vinegar (I
actually have about a half dozen different
vinegars in my kitchen) but I find it wearying
after a few hours in the darkroom. A tablespoon
(or fifteen grams) of citric acid per liter of
working stop bath makes a fine stop that is
completely odorless (can't smell it even if it
wets your nose).

In either case (acetic or citric), lower the
concentration until paper no longer sizzles or
releases bubbles in the stop bath. Most published
comments on this question advise too much acid.

It helps to use stop bath one-shot or one-session.
Part of the reason for using it at a higher
concentration is so it will last over a few
storage periods. It's very cheap, and one-shot
ensures a fresh bath and consistent results.

Experimenting with a plain water stop bath might
be instructive. I haven't used anything but
several changes of plain tap water as my 'stop'
bath for years now. I find acid of any kind
creates more problems than benefits in my process
for making FB prints.

I've even pontificated on this subject, on my
website. Look under the 'technical' section of the
table of contents. (www.heylloyd.com)

regards,
--le

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Donald Qualls - 18 Apr 2004 22:33 GMT

> Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
> my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Francis

As the other reply suggested, it's carbonate in the developer reacting
with the acetic acid stop bath. No, it won't hurt you -- the gas
evolved is just carbon dioxide, and though enough will kill you, you
won't make enough that way to do any harm in a ventilated room (and you
shouldn't be printing or developing in an unventilated room anyway).
However, gas evolution is very bad for film and paper; bubbles formed
within the emulsion can cause separation and pinholes.

First, did you remember to dilute the stop bath according to directions?
If not, you'll find the gas evolution greatly reduced with weaker
acid. If it's already diluted, or you still hear the hiss after
diluting, then you should change to a plain water stop bath (change the
water after every 5 or 10 prints, so it doesn't start to act like dilute
developer and boost your highlights) or a buffered stop (buffer with
sodium acetate, quantities are given in Anchell & Troop for film, and
will work as well for paper), or switch to a developer that doesn't use
carbonate as its alkali.

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jjs - 19 Apr 2004 01:44 GMT

> Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
> my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
> sound was produced when the paper was put into the stop bath.

Way too strong a stop solution is my guess. If you look at your prints,
you might see pinholes in the emulsion.

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Patrick Gainer - 19 Apr 2004 17:09 GMT

> > Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
> > my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
> > sound was produced when the paper was put into the stop bath.
>
> Way too strong a stop solution is my guess. If you look at your prints,
> you might see pinholes in the emulsion.

I never ever have seen those pinholes. Most of the carbonate carried
over is outside the emulsion where it cannot cause pinholes. Only if
there is enough carbonate in the emulsion, and the acetic acid is
absorbed by the emulsion instead of waiting for the unwary carbonate to
come out, and if the emulsion is soft enough, will there be any
pinholes. How many have you guys seen in printing paper emulsion?

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Robert Vervoordt - 20 Apr 2004 09:45 GMT

>> > Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
>> > my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>come out, and if the emulsion is soft enough, will there be any
>pinholes. How many have you guys seen in printing paper emulsion?

None. Never. Ever.

Then, again, a fellow working at the same photofinishing plant as I
showed me some real pinholes caused by using a very concentrated
fixer. He did his demo and rushed away, so I never got those details.

Anyone hear of anything like this?

Robert Vervoordt, MFA

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Patrick Gainer - 20 Apr 2004 19:16 GMT

> >> > Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
> >> > my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Pinholes were a common occurence in line copies of reporte when I was an
aeronautical research engineer at NACA (later NASA). We engineers had to
watch over the spotters because they sometimes made time go backward.
One time we saw a reproduction of an oscillograph trace that had a
backward loop caused by an artistic retoucher. From then on, the
researcher had to take part in the retouching.

I guess the pinholes were the result of thick emulsion, lithographic
developer, etc.

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Dan Quinn - 22 Apr 2004 00:56 GMT

RE: fknapik@localnet.com (Francis)

For a few generations the usual alkaline developer, acid stop,
acid fix method of processing has been used.
The acid stop is used to adjust the ph of the print so that the
acidity of the fix may be maintained.
There are those that make prints using a neutral or alkaline
fix. They are not interested in maintaining an acid fix.
Then there is me. Film or paper, I don't use a stop of any sort.
I use all chemistry one-shot so I have no reason to stop. Dan

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David Nebenzahl - 22 Apr 2004 17:37 GMT

On 4/21/2004 4:56 PM Dan Quinn spake thus:

> RE: fknapik@localnet.com (Francis)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Then there is me. Film or paper, I don't use a stop of any sort.
> I use all chemistry one-shot so I have no reason to stop.

Well, whoop-te-do for you.

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Richard Knoppow - 22 Apr 2004 20:23 GMT

> Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
> my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Francis

This is normal for most print developers, which contain
sodium carbonate. It does no harm. If you want to get rid of
it use Kodak Ektaflo Type-2 developer, the liquid
concentrate version of the discontinued Ektonol. This has
metaborate rather than carbonate and does not evolve gas in
the stop or fixing baths.

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---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

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Norman Worth - 23 Apr 2004 07:15 GMT

This is usually an indication that the stop bath is too strong. Use 2
percent acetic acid or even somewhat less (as I recall, Kodak SB-1 is 1.8%).
In general, avoid other acids like citric or sulfuric. Even at high
dilutions, they are too strong. Even with a reasonable stop bath, a large
carryover from a high-carbonate developer may fizz a little bit. Drain the
print well between the developer and stop bath. Pick it up by the corner and
let it drip into the tray for 15 seconds. This usually gets rid of the
sizzle and extends the life of the stop bath. That sizzle can create
pinholes in the emulsion if it's strong enough.

> Hello. I hope someone can explain what happened when, yesterday I took
> my paper from the developer and put it in the stop bath. A "sizzle"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Francis

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