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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / May 2004Forte Bromofort and Brilliant lll
Just ordered a few boxes of Forte Bromofort from B&H, because of the enticing $73.00 per 50 sheets of 16x20. Any comments from experienced users? How's about this Brilliant lll? Both I gather are long toe. I'm wondering if a cold lite sorce might have trouble making a rich black. Fav developers? > Just ordered a few boxes of Forte Bromofort from B&H, because of the > enticing $73.00 per 50 sheets of 16x20. Any comments from experienced > users? How's about this Brilliant lll? Both I gather are long toe. I'm > wondering if a cold lite sorce might have trouble making a rich black. > Fav developers? My only comment is how old is the paper? Bromofort to my knowledge has not been imported for sometime. It could have been warehouse stock or purchased as a special order. More than likely it's five years old. Brillant from Calumet is repackaged MGV.  SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution > > Just ordered a few boxes of Forte Bromofort from B&H, because of the > > enticing $73.00 per 50 sheets of 16x20. Any comments from experienced [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Brillant from Calumet is repackaged MGV. Thanks Greg, I called OmegaSatter and confirmed that they have not imported Bromofort now for three years. There goes another one. Ken Smith RE: aldenphoto@aol.com (Ken Smith) wrote > > I called OmegaSatter and confirmed that they have not imported > Bromofort now for three years. There goes another one. Ken Smith Not so quick. I think state side suppliers are more heavily stocked with VC papers at the expense of graded than are those outside the states. Have you tried Canada? A year or so ago I found an Australien site via Google which may have and may still be carrying every Forte paper. Canada and Europe, I've a hunch, are still marketing a very large variety of graded fiber base papers. There is though quite an assortment of them state side. I can't find just the ones I'd like in the size I'd like from US suppliers. Dan > Not so quick. I think state side suppliers are more heavily stocked > with VC papers at the expense of graded than are those outside the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > find just the ones I'd like in the size I'd like from US suppliers. > Dan If one wants Bromofort it can be purchased from Omega Satter directly or indirectly, but it does require a minimum (case) purchase. There would be a 3-6 month wait. It just not a standard stocked item. The reason it was dropped as a standard stocked item was there was not enough customer support, to justify having it take up warehouse space. SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution RE: Gregory W Blank <gblank@despamit.net> wrote > If one wants Bromofort it can be purchased from Omega Satter > directly or indirectly, but it does require a minimum (case) purchase. > There would be a 3-6 month wait. It just not a standard stocked item. > The reason it was dropped as a standard stocked item was there was not > enough customer support, to justify having it take up warehouse space. Speaking only of Graded Fiber Base papers, just how big a trick would it be to order a case direct from the manufacturer? There are NO, (that's with a ZERO), projection speed Graded FB papers made in the US. One might say they are EXTINCT. I've no use for case quantities myself but could unload some via eBay. A case amounts to how much paper? Perhaps some dollar amount is the minimum? BTW, is O. Satter's arrangment with Forte direct or through an Euorpean jobber? Perhaps they act only as the US importer and then distribute? That is, do they buy and then resell or are they contracted to distribute in the USA and do the billing? Dan > A year or so ago I found an Australien site via Google which may > have and may still be carrying every Forte paper. Canada and Europe, > I've a hunch, are still marketing a very large variety of graded > fiber base papers. No mention of http://jandcphotography.com/photopapers.htm yet? Their "Classic" is Forte. Stefan > > A year or so ago I found an Australien site via Google which may > > have and may still be carrying every Forte paper. Canada and Europe, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Their "Classic" is Forte. Stefan Is it Fortezo on a heavier base? Perhaps they can special order. Dan I haven't gotten the Bromomfort yet, but did get some Brilliant, and I personally love it. If it's just repackaged Ilford, it sure has a nicer color. It's not as stubborn to tone as Ilford. It's a more pleasing tone to begin with than the Forte Polygrade, which doesn't like to give up it's cold green. I stay away from the expensive Bergger and Oriental, but have tried the less expensive Luminous, Agfa, Forte, and now Brilliant. Luminous has a very neutral matter of fact tone, which might work with some things, Agfa has got a great feel, but split tones before yeilding the heaviest of all greens. Too bad it's not more like its RC version. So Brilliant it is for me. It's got a great color that almost looks like a selenium print to begin with. Shadow is very forgiving,and highligh is a tad hot, but is just right for my pyrocat negs. > I haven't gotten the Bromomfort yet, but did get some Brilliant, and I > personally love it. If it's just repackaged Ilford, it sure has a nicer [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a selenium print to begin with. Shadow is very forgiving,and highligh is > a tad hot, but is just right for my pyrocat negs. Was one developer at one dilution used for all the above evaluations? Dan > Was one developer at one dilution used for all the above evaluations? > Dan Good point, and realistically one should use the same negative, the same aperture/enlargement ratio and all times and contrast settings to see exactly whether the papers compare for speed, and contrast. SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution > > I haven't gotten the Bromomfort yet, but did get some Brilliant, and I > > personally love it. If it's just repackaged Ilford, it sure has a nicer [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Was one developer at one dilution used for all the above evaluations? > Dan Yes. Ilfords Bromophen 1:3 2 min. I used to use Dektol, but found that I could get a better black, albeit slight, with the Bromophen. I've also tried the Ansco 130, which has some interesting, again slight, qualities. I also did the papers in selenium, because it's standard practice for archiving, even if unnecessary color wise. I could easily leave the Brilliant untoned color wise. I forgot to mention the Brilliant does seem to have a cream base, but I didn't notice it at first. I'm going to experiment with the Forte to see if I can get less green, as I'd like to use this cooler toned paper with snow scenes. Again, the Luminous has a good neutral tone, but often, maybe it's my pyro negs, it just seems dull. It seems to take the excitement out of the image. It's a neither here nor there feeling, and boosting the contrast doesn't improve it. I had first used it to get the cleanest white possible on some 35mm shots of Navy uniforms. Worked great. Opps, sorry. Strike that cream base comment. The Brilliant may have looked creamy last night wet and placed on screens, but now dry looks to have a purer white than even the Luminous. Makes the Luminous appear slightly grey. So that eliminates the need for L. to get a pure white. The color is great. Looks like Selenium is supposed to. Forte is GREEN. Agfa is way GREEN. Another note. Brilliant and Forte tested a full step contrastier than Luminous and Agfa. They printed with no. filter, the L. and Agfa needed a no.3. > The color is great. Looks like Selenium is supposed to. Forte is GREEN. Your Green ;-) I cannot recall ever getting a green color from Bromofort, now the old PWT Forte paper with certain developers would yield a slight green color But it was Cadmium based, Bromofort is not. It's possble the developer is the cause,.....or that the the paper is 5+ ? years old. FYI papers tend to loose contrast as they age and soften somewhat the old Bromofort may be somewhat warmer, than it was when new. SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution > > The color is great. Looks like Selenium is supposed to. Forte is GREEN. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > loose contrast as they age and soften somewhat the old Bromofort may be > somewhat warmer, than it was when new. I haven't gotten the Bromofort yet. It's the Polygrade I was refering to in recent test, and it's a new 25sht. 8x10 Pack from B&H. Can't be too old, but definitly is green. I on the other hand am a stunning shade of peanut. > I haven't gotten the Bromofort yet. It's the Polygrade I was refering to > in recent test, and it's a new 25sht. 8x10 Pack from B&H. Can't be too > old, but definitly is green. I on the other hand am a stunning shade of > peanut. Peanut is a good shade, beats Mauve by far!!! :-) Polygrade is a nuetral tone paper, capable of producing blue black with developers like Edwal Ultra black, Agfa Nuetal produced a green cast on Poly Warmtone of the past, I would suspect its you choice of developer. Dektol produces a diffinately Nuetral image color with standard Forte PolyGrade. SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution > > I haven't gotten the Bromofort yet. It's the Polygrade I was refering to > > in recent test, and it's a new 25sht. 8x10 Pack from B&H. Can't be too [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of the past, I would suspect its you choice of developer. Dektol produces a diffinately > Nuetral image color with standard Forte PolyGrade. Neutral, as in Neuter, Neurotic, Neutron. Doesn't look right, but.. I have been using Bromophen as my test developer, not Agfa Neutol. Stated several times in previous posts, but who reads that stuff? Waste of time. I switched to Bromophen after becoming convinced I could get a slightly richer, cooler black than Dektol, during one project, and have used in since. In my experience, no paper is neutral. In any side by side look see, theres always a tell tale shift. It's the nature of light with black pigment to shift to a color. With paper, I can see it,also in the whites. Brilliant shows the whites as pure as I've ever seen, Luminos has as close to neutral of them all, albeit slightly grey in the white, but Forte is to my eye, with Bromophen, green. Agfa is a heavy brownish green. Which is where the Agfa Neutol comes in. I tried to use that company's own to see if it helped. It was slightly warmer, but still very much green. I suppose I should give Edwal's magic potion a try,though the infamous R.K. pretty much panned it, as well as most paper developer's claims at much difference. Although I see subtle changes as worth alot. Ansco 130 is a good example. Bromophen by the way refers to Ilford paper developer, not Bromofort from Forte, as mentioned earlier. Which by the way, I may not be able to get as Omega Satter told me they have not imported now for three years. Though B&H may have another source, or will send the old stuff. Papers may say neutral, but layed out side by side the colors all start to yell at you. The important thing I've noticed, is for each image there is a paper that expresses it's message best. Agfa MG Classic has a quality unique amoungst the herd. It makes my forest more ominous and real than the perkier other papers. Yet it's a very drab boy with higher keyed images. I made tests to find out once and for all which paper to settle on, and instead, I now think they all belong in the darkroom. > Neutral, as in Neuter, Neurotic, Neutron. Doesn't look right, but.. Ah I forgot The most important part of the Nuetol (WA) > Bromophen by the way refers to Ilford paper developer, not > Bromofort from Forte, as mentioned earlier. >Which by the way, I may not be able to get as Omega Satter told me they have not >imported now for three years. Though B&H may have another source, or will send >the old stuff. They can get it, its still made, the question is do you want it bad enough to buy a case? Thats' ten 8x10 -100 sheet boxes, or 5- fifty sheet boxes of 16 x 20. Cash up front 3-6 month wait. No refunds for special orders. What was saying is that Bromphen may have an effect on the color cast, producing a green image, use Ultra Black with Forte PGV and see if it looks green,....it won't, it will be decidedly blue-black. SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution > What was saying is that Bromphen may have an effect on the color cast, producing > a green image, use Ultra Black with Forte PGV and see if it looks green,....it won't, it will be decidedly > blue-black. B&H won't ship the Ultra Black, so I'll Benzo some 130, or try the Kalogen. Experiment with toning showed me how dramatic PGV will jump sides. Five min. in my selenium mix and it has turned nicely towards a more neutral tone, and watch out, a little more and it looks like some thiocarbamide thing out of Tim Rudman's book. So it looks like I've got another bag of tricks there. In fact, when I made these tests, my shots were all taken close together, yet time after time, one paper would look better, then another. Ultimately I couldn't eliminate any. Alot of snow scenes, yet point the camera in one direction and Luminos looked best, in another...etc. So the new printing approach is to make 8x10's of a given shot on four different papers, before going to work on larger. The differences are worth it, once I've seen how one paper conveys the scene better than another. I settled on Luminos, Agfa, Brilliant, and Polygrade V. Ilford seemed a little too contrasty, and I'm not nuts about it's color, which it doesn't like to change. Favorite paper of many, but It reminds me why I started doing pyro. I don't even want to know about the other papers out there. Fortunately I'm not a fan of warmtone, unless... > > What was saying is that Bromphen may have an effect on the color cast, producing > > a green image, use Ultra Black with Forte PGV and see if it looks green,....it won't, it will be decidedly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > watch out, a little more and it looks like some thiocarbamide thing out of > Tim Rudman's book. So it looks like I've got another bag of tricks there. Forte Produces a very red print if you use a less dilute Selenium toner bath. > I don't even want to know about the other papers out there. > Fortunately I'm not a fan of warmtone, unless... Warmtone papers are nice for Portraiture, and certain scenics,.....I have some dramatic cloud-and landscape images the warmtone produces the best rendition with. SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution ... In my experience, no paper is neutral. In any side by side > look see, theres always a tell tale shift. It's the nature of light with > black pigment to shift to a color. With paper, I can see it,also in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > difference. Although I see subtle changes as worth alot. Ansco 130 is a > good example. ... may104 from Lloyd Erlick, My favorite paper developer (I mainly use Ilford Warmtone FB paper, MGW) is the old Ansco 120 formula. I increase the potassium bromide to around two grams per liter of working solution. (I also change the sodium salts to their potassium counterparts, but that's another story...). Also, eliminating hardener in the fixer affects the way the paper accepts selenium toner. I haven't used hardener in decades. I also find diluting my selenium toner 1+5 in distilled water, and using it at 32-34 degrees C, for ten minutes, produces results I like. The final result of selenium tomning is deeply affected by the developer. Agfa Neutol WA worked very nicely for me, too, but I prefer 120 (Potassium). regards, --le FYI, at the Large Format Conference in Monterey, many excellent printers looked at my tests and nearly all the IMHO "best" printers picked Forte Elegance Polygrade V in Fine Art Photo Supply's VersaPrint II as the standout combination from 10 papers in 11 developers. I was stunned that so many did. That combo is slightly warm (it's a glycin developer, as is Ansco 130), but only slightly, and otherwise really rich and robust. It was a blind test. They didn't know what they picked until they had picked only one. Wow. I didn't test Brilliant III, having heard it was "just" Ilford Multigrade. Wish I had. Bruce > FYI, at the Large Format Conference in Monterey, many excellent printers looked > at my tests and nearly all the IMHO "best" printers picked Forte Elegance [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Bruce Mr. Blank had said that it was repackaged MGV. I only know of MG IV, and as far as that goes, the MG IV is half a contrast grade harder and has a different color, as well as being harder to selenium tone, than the Brilliant. I've opted to keep both the Brilliant and the Forte in my darkroom. I figure why try to force the Forte to be other than a cold toned paper, so I'm going to look into the Kalogen Developer for that. I'll use Polywarmtone if I want the browns. But the Brilliant has earned its place as well, over the Ilford as it has a tamer contrast range and tones in selenium properly. I'm still looking for the best combo for Agfa, as I find that paper to be of a unique quality. Luminos also has its place. Ken > Mr. Blank had said that it was repackaged MGV. I only guessed at the numeric designation, I never use Ilford photo paper. I was only passing along what I heard sometime ago from a coworker that tested photo papers as I did for the photo company which I previously worked. SignatureLF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank <<<For best results expand this window at least 6" at 1152 x 768 resolution >I haven't gotten the Bromomfort yet, but did get some Brilliant, and I > personally love it. If it's just repackaged Ilford, it sure has a nicer [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > a selenium print to begin with. Shadow is very forgiving,and highligh is > a tad hot, but is just right for my pyrocat negs. may104 from Lloyd Erlick, Could it possibly be Ilford Warmtone FB material (MGW)? When you say, "It's got a great color that almost looks like a selenium print to begin with", I can't help thinking that. If this is true, I think it's cheaper in an Ilford box. regards, --le > >I haven't gotten the Bromomfort yet, but did get some Brilliant, and I > > personally love it. If it's just repackaged Ilford, it sure has a nicer [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > regards, > --le The Brilliant, though I can't boast a side by side, doesn't strike me as a warmtone paper . It simply has a tone that is similar to that of erasing olive with a selenium toner. But just a tad, and more red than brown. Ilford MG IV, also has a color, non-olive, but is different also, as well as more contrast. I would guess that though Brilliant might be made by Ilford, it's still probably not the exact same as any of their namebrand papers. It also tones more easily than MG IV. As for price, 8x10 100sht. Calumet catalog, similar to B&H has Brilliant at $55.00, Ilford Warmtone at $71.00, and MG at $59.00. Thanks for the non-acid tips, though. Ken Smith |
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