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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2004

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120 development w/o reels

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Ken Smith - 18 Apr 2004 23:22 GMT
I think I might give developing 120 in a long trough a try. I have
found too many times unevenness from reel development. The edges
always get more density despite my non-aggressive agitation. A recent
batch of strong light, snow,and sky, contact printed with definite
edging. This makes for a greyish center, and a touchy paper wasting
burn problem. Robert Adams opted for trough development when finding
similar unevenness in his wide open prairie skies,  or so I read
somewhere. My first thought however, is that even my sheet film will
sometimes have increased edge density, even though I'm in the habit
now of reversing, and flipping direction throughout the process.
David Nebenzahl - 19 Apr 2004 00:31 GMT
On 4/18/2004 3:22 PM Ken Smith spake thus:

> I think I might give developing 120 in a long trough a try. I have
> found too many times unevenness from reel development. The edges
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> sometimes have increased edge density, even though I'm in the habit
> now of reversing, and flipping direction throughout the process.

This makes me wonder how hard it would be to construct one's own light-tight
trough. I'm thinking of a stainless steel box in two pieces, with some kind of
liquid baffle and cap so chemistry could be poured in and out. The film could
be secured at either end to metal pegs or hooks using rubber bands to keep it
taut. Sounds like the sort of thing that could be cobbled up by most any
competent village welder.

Of course, if you don't mind working in the dark, you only need the one
trough. You could probably make this out of wood covered with fiberglass or
epoxy or something.

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CCDee - 19 Apr 2004 03:53 GMT
Seems to me I read an article years ago where some guy used golf club tubes
(the ones which hold the club inside the bigger bags) to develop his 35mm
negs. Maybe something like a 1-1/2" to 2" PVC plumbing tube could work. I
don't remember how he changed chemistry though.

> On 4/18/2004 3:22 PM Ken Smith spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> trough. You could probably make this out of wood covered with fiberglass or
> epoxy or something.
Nige - 21 Apr 2004 11:29 GMT
> On 4/18/2004 3:22 PM Ken Smith spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> trough. You could probably make this out of wood covered with fiberglass or
> epoxy or something.

If I was to want to do this, I'd construct a tube probably from PVC pipe
which was long enough to hold the film vertically (a 1 film deep tank).
Have a cap to make it light proof and make a bracket to sit it in.  For
agitation I think I'd actually make the lid have a clip that the film hung
off and just screw it around and back again a few times and maybe lift it up
and down a bit too (need to turn the lights off for this).  Make 2 more for
your stop/fixer.

Cheers, Nige
CCD - 21 Apr 2004 14:48 GMT
> > On 4/18/2004 3:22 PM Ken Smith spake thus:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> and down a bit too (need to turn the lights off for this).  Make 2 more for
> your stop/fixer.

I think the theory was that agitation occurred when the air bubble passed
from bottom to top.
Stefan Patric - 19 Apr 2004 04:33 GMT
> I think I might give developing 120 in a long trough a try. I have
> found too many times unevenness from reel development. The edges
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> sometimes have increased edge density, even though I'm in the habit
> now of reversing, and flipping direction throughout the process.

If you're getting uneven development of your 120 using reels, I would
say that you have an improper agitation routine.  I've been using
stainless steel reels and inversion tanks for over 35 years, and there
is no uneveness in my negatives -- 120, 220 or 35mm.  What agitation
scheme do you use?

Remember, that tank isn't a cocktail shaker, and your film shouldn't be
agitated like it is.

Signature

Stefan Patric
tootek2@yahoo.com

Ken Smith - 19 Apr 2004 14:47 GMT
Stefan Patric <tootek2@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<WPHgc.10415> If you're getting uneven development of your 120 using reels, I would
> say that you have an improper agitation routine.  I've been using
> stainless steel reels and inversion tanks for over 35 years, and there
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Remember, that tank isn't a cocktail shaker, and your film shouldn't be
> agitated like it is.

 I figured someone would say this, even though I wrote that I used
non-aggressive agitation. No I don't use it like a cocktail shaker.
I've developed
35mm for 31 years now, but 120 for only 7. I started with Paterson,
and
didn't notice surge at all, then a few years ago, I started getting
bubbles
in a progressed line, despite hard rapping of the tank. They were
inconsistant, so I figured it was me and kept using them for years,
with the occasional, and now more frequent line of plue density blobs
on the edges. So I bought some stainless steel, lost the bubbles, and
gained the surge. That's where it is right now. I swear my technique,
of 2 min. prewet,  insertion in the dark of the reels, verses the
pouring in, and agitation for 1 min. then every 30sec thereafter,
gentle inversion, twist, and rap...yadda,yadda,yadda, ...should be
perfect everytime. But I have found nothing works so seemlessly in my
world. The trough idea will probably introduce it's unique foibles as
well.
Dan Quinn - 19 Apr 2004 23:50 GMT
RE: aldenphoto@aol.com (Ken Smith) wrote
 
 For 120 give this method a try. Use a one liter tank and 1/2
liter of solution. Presoak or not as you chose. With the film in the
tank and it sealed, add developer then give four inversions. Follow
with two inversions each two minutes. Do not be gentle. Twelve
minutes is a good mimium time.
 I use a single Kindermann reel and tank.                       Dan
Stefan Patric - 21 Apr 2004 03:19 GMT
> Stefan Patric <tootek2@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<WPHgc.10415>
> If you're getting uneven development of your 120 using reels, I would
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> world. The trough idea will probably introduce it's unique foibles as
> well.

One minute continuous agitation after the insertion of the reels?  Too
much.  That's where you're getting the surge and uneven development.
Try an initial 10 secs continuously -- 6 inversions, then 3 inversions
in 5 secs at 30 secs, then 3 inversions in 5 secs every 30 secs
thereafter.  Each inversion should include a half twist, and each 3
inversion series should include a tank rap to dislodge bubbles.

Since you put your reels into a full tank of developer, you don't need
to do a prewet unless your development times are 5 minutes or less, and
even then a 1 minute prewet is sufficient, but allow the film to drain
for at least 30 seconds and gently shake off the excess waterbeads
before putting it in the developer.

Signature

Stefan Patric
tootek2@yahoo.com

Lloyd Erlick - 19 Apr 2004 19:51 GMT
>I think I might give developing 120 in a long trough a try. I have
>found too many times unevenness from reel development. The edges
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>sometimes have increased edge density, even though I'm in the habit
>now of reversing, and flipping direction throughout the process.

apr1904 from Lloyd Erlick,

Finding the reason for the unevenness would surely
be easier than working out how to develop roll
film in a trough.

My first two guesses would be agitation technique
and time of development. Agitation can be varied
until an appropriate scheme is found, but the old
standby of two or three inversions of the tank (or
'agitations' of some sort...) performed once a
minute seems to have stood the test of time.

I prefer a development time of ten minutes or
longer. My opinion is that the reason I don't see
unevenness problems in my negatives is that I give
my negs plenty of time to develop in a dilute
developer. And it means they get agitated more
times, too, but I don't think any more vigorously.

There was a time when I developed (35mm) Tri-X in
Rodinal 1+50 for twenty-two minutes. I've cut back
since then; I use a twelve minute time for TMY
(120). It seems to be working out.

regards,
--le
Ken Smith - 20 Apr 2004 19:50 GMT
> >I think I might give developing 120 in a long trough a try. I have
> >found too many times unevenness from reel development. The edges
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> regards,
> --le

  Yes, I would like to know why the development is uneven. I use
highly dilute developers. Pyrocat 1:1/2:100,or Rodinal 1:75. My times,
you will consider short, 7-8-9 min depending on contrast range.
However they are long enough for even development, and have served me
well for many years. I know some people are very wary of anything less
than 10 min., but I don't think that argument stands up to fact. And
why should the edges develope more than the center, then catch up in
the center with an extra three minutes?
I used to do HC-110 for six minutes without problems.   Quit in search
of a better compensating developer.

The Paterson tanks, as I said, did not yield unevenness, but did
result in an odd line of blobs/bubbles of plus density on the edge,
although only occasionally, and I missed checking to see if it was
tracable to a given reel, despite 200 opportunities.

Switching to stainless steel now has resulted in edges slightly more
dense that center. I give alot of exposure to bright outdoors, for
extra shadow detail, hence the short development times. I'm half
wondering if there isn't something optical going on, as more common
exposures do not show this extra density as dramatically. Planar f/3.5
on a Rollie.

I mentioned Robert Adams's work because he had made a lot of exposures
in wide open spaces with alot brightness and white skies. He then, I
believe, opted for trough development to insure greater evenness.

This is an especially frustrating problem because, a.) it's a simple
thing that shouldn't be happening given my experience with film
development, and b.) I've rarely ever had this show up in previous
thousands of tank developed negatives.

Photography has done more than merely keep me humble, it has
virtually instilled a fear and trembling unto death, if I may so
dramatic.

Smith The Smited
Gary Beasley - 19 Apr 2004 21:42 GMT
>I think I might give developing 120 in a long trough a try. I have
>found too many times unevenness from reel development. The edges
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>sometimes have increased edge density, even though I'm in the habit
>now of reversing, and flipping direction throughout the process.

The first time I ever processed a roll of film was without a tank via
dip processing. Grab both ends and seesaw the strip into a tray with a
few inches of developer in it. Back and forth with only a few inches
of the film actually immersed.
I also used one time a processor that consisted of a large drum with
the film clipped to the outside and wrapped spirally around it
emulsion side out. This was rotated in a trough of developer (it was
actually doing E-6 process) . Seemed to work well, I could do several
rolls at a time with it.
Then there was the old developing systems the military used on the
aerial film that wound the film from one spool to another and back
while immersed in solution.
The problem I see with the trough is going to be keeping the thing
level enough so the developer doesn't slosh out one end or another
while agitating. It will be interesting to hear how that comes out.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 21 Apr 2004 16:58 GMT
> I think I might give developing 120 in a long trough a try.

I have never tried a trough, but I have used the see-saw tray
method where the film is in a hairpin curve and the ends are
moved up and down so the film passes through the developer.

I found kitchen bowls (what I used for my first attempt, [Ref.:
"Boys Big Book of Photography"; Pub. 1934(guess)]) to be far
better than trays. The smooth bowl won't scratch the film
and forms a deeper pool of developer.  You verify the
film is in the developer when the going down hand hits the
liquid.  Otherwise you may find yourself developing film in
the air.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.

Paul W. Ross - 21 Apr 2004 19:37 GMT
Many moons ago, I used to develop 127 <gasp> film with nothing more
profound than a small tray -- 5x7 size will do nicely. Just put in
developer. Grab either end of the film, and immerse the bottom loop in
the developer, using a "see-saw" motion for agitation. Works like a
charm. Ditto for short stop and fixer. I did this with 120 before I
got a tank and reel. All in the dark, of course.
 
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