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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / March 2004

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daylight darkroom?

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AArDvarK - 28 Mar 2004 01:28 GMT
I have no way of having a real darkroom. But I
wonder if it is possible to do it with stuff such
as a changing pup-tent for loading exposed film
into a tank, a drum processor outfit like a dev-tec
100-B or a Jobo cpe-2, an amber light for use
at night and so forth. I have an Omega D2 and
want to do my own 4x5 developing and
printing. Are there any tips I would need to
know about? Also, are there any good websites
addressing this issue?

Thanks all,

Alex
David Nebenzahl - 28 Mar 2004 03:43 GMT
On 3/27/2004 4:28 PM AArDvarK spake thus:

> I have no way of having a real darkroom. But I
> wonder if it is possible to do it with stuff such
> as a changing pup-tent for loading exposed film
> into a tank, a drum processor outfit like a dev-tec
> 100-B or a Jobo cpe-2, an amber light for use
> at night and so forth.

For loading tanks and drums in daylight, all you need is a changing bag, which
should be available at any decent photo shop that carries darkroom stuff.

Signature

... but never have I encountered a guy who could not be bothered
to make his own case on his own show.

- Eric Alterman on his appearance on Dennis Miller's bomb of a show
on CNBC (3/17/04)

AArDvarK - 28 Mar 2004 13:05 GMT
"David Nebenzahl"
> On 3/27/2004 4:28 PM AArDvarK spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> For loading tanks and drums in daylight, all you need is a changing bag, which
> should be available at any decent photo shop that carries darkroom stuff.

Yeah but these days there these changing pup-tents
that stand structuraly on a table, no draping on your
hands and work. Yeah?

Alex
nicholas - 28 Mar 2004 05:30 GMT
> I have no way of having a real darkroom. But I
> wonder if it is possible to do it with stuff such
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Alex

I've tried that option and it tried me...

The Jobo cpe-2 with the lift option is a wonderful piece of equipment
but mine blew up... The dev tec (I don't know which model but it
supposedly takes 20x24in paper) doesnt quite work with 20x24 paper and
requires trimming down, which is a real PIA. Using a darkroom which can
only be used at night is a better option because the limiting factor
doesnt actually limit you while youre working.

Personally I'd go another route before any of the above options again.
Even digital scanning of negs before using any of those options again.
It does work however, and if this is the only way for you to enjoy the
image-making possibilies then I say go for it you will see the
frustrations yourself. One advantage of using tube processing is the
minimal amount of chemicals used...
AArDvarK - 28 Mar 2004 13:19 GMT
> > I have no way of having a real darkroom. But I
> > wonder if it is possible to do it with stuff such
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> frustrations yourself. One advantage of using tube processing is the
> minimal amount of chemicals used...

Your Jobo blew up? How? Anyway the dev-teck,
there are two models, the smaller takes up tp 11x14
paper which is as far as I want to go as enlarging from
4x5 anyway. The complete outfit costs around $300
when you add the motor and temp control, everything
is in water bath, all the chemical containers and the
big tube. The motor agitates for you, and I'm sure it's
all cheaper than any Jobo that might blow-up! Where
did you read that the tube is actually too small? Or
have you tried one?

See the PDF file: http://www.doranent.com/ makes
the dev-tec processors.

As far as the light problem for paper I guess I would
only enlarge at night. I imagine a tightly woven silk
over my windows should work and provide a free
light source.

Thanks Nicholas,

Alex
nicholas - 28 Mar 2004 22:05 GMT
> Your Jobo blew up? How?

yep, smoke and everything. Apparently water had gotten into the
electrics and so on. I bought it second hand from a shop and this
happened about a month or two after getting it.

> Anyway the dev-teck,
> there are two models, the smaller takes up tp 11x14
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> is in water bath, all the chemical containers and the
> big tube.

Ive seen pictures of the motor, it looks like quite a primitive design
as opposed to a Jobo system.

> The motor agitates for you, and I'm sure it's
> all cheaper than any Jobo that might blow-up! Where
> did you read that the tube is actually too small? Or
> have you tried one?

I own one. The larger size like I said before. The paper when inserted
into the tube is slightly too big and requires trimming and at 20x24
it's a real hassle. An oversight (undersight?) I would say.

> See the PDF file: http://www.doranent.com/ makes
> the dev-tec processors.

Since then I got a Simmard (made in Canada) and that worked much better
for my needs as the design was simple (motorised) but very well thought
out. The tube sits on rollers which has a rocking system and that helps
with keeping the solution on the print.

> As far as the light problem for paper I guess I would
> only enlarge at night. I imagine a tightly woven silk
> over my windows should work and provide a free
> light source.

I also tried a pup tent (actually a camping toilet tent--unused) so I
could print during the day as well. However, I found with the added
hassle it was easier to print during the night time and have the doors
open....

> Thanks Nicholas,

No worries, I can only recommend you work out a way to sought out your
workflow to what best suits you in a way which doesnt require massive
capital investment beforehand. Like I said I thought the devtek system
not worth the hassle because of the oversight of the sizing of the tank.
Jobo is well made and can be very compact in actual use because. I had a
bad experience with it and this does not seem to be the norm. I use Nova
tanks and think they are the best for space saving although they too
have their drawbacks. Not the least of which is the high expense.

There is always single tray processing?

Nicholas
> Alex
nicholas - 28 Mar 2004 22:12 GMT
Oh and one more thing since I've seen youre a largeformatter. Jobo make
an excellent 4x5 tank for use with rotary processing. Its good and you
use minimal amount of chems. Another bonus is the large amount of people
who use this specially with staining type developers...
Bob Salomon - 28 Mar 2004 22:18 GMT
> Simmard

Was the father of both the Beseler drum and the Unicolor drum.

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AArDvarK - 29 Mar 2004 00:38 GMT
"nicholas"

> > Your Jobo blew up? How?
>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> Nicholas
> > Alex

Sheesh, I couldn't find a product page for Simmard
anywhere online. Then took a look at Beseler and
their drum system is not listed as normal products
but are listed as close-out items at huge prices, way
out there. I can't find any maker's product page for
Unicolor either, and no sale sites. Too wierd.

Alex
Bob Salomon - 29 Mar 2004 00:46 GMT
> Sheesh, I couldn't find a product page for Simmard
> anywhere online. Then took a look at Beseler and
> their drum system is not listed as normal products
> but are listed as close-out items at huge prices, way
> out there. I can't find any maker's product page for
> Unicolor either, and no sale sites. Too wierd.

Simmard hasn't made drums since the early 70's. That is when Beseler
started making drums and a little after Unicolor started.

Home color and B&W darkrooms are not exactly a growth industry so these
products are discontinued.

If you want a current drum look at Jobo.

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Nick Zentena - 28 Mar 2004 07:02 GMT
> I have no way of having a real darkroom. But I
> wonder if it is possible to do it with stuff such
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> know about? Also, are there any good websites
> addressing this issue?

 I think you'll find many of us have temporary darkrooms. They're dark with
the lights out but they aren't really darkrooms. I'm lucky that the enlarger
can stay in place but stuff like trays get set up and put away every time.
The windows get blocked off. For film it doesn't even need to be that
complicated. The only time you need darkness is too load the tank. If you
can load your film holders then you've got a place to load your film tank.

   For B&W no need for a processor. You can process B&W film with much
simpler setups. Colour would be more of a pain but even then you can avoid
the processor if you'd rather put the money into film and paper.

   Nick
AArDvarK - 28 Mar 2004 13:46 GMT
"Nick Zentena"
> AArDvarK
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>     Nick-

Thanks Nick, but anything that takes up space like trays
and print washing trays I do not need. On a table goes
the enlarger, the processor and a changing pup-tent.
At the kitchen sink goes a slot print washer for up to
11x14" ... for which I wonder if there should be an
inline, minor high-flow water filter? On the windows,
a thin fine amber colored silk that allows light through.
Nothing in the bathroom though. What do you think?

Alex
Nick Zentena - 28 Mar 2004 14:34 GMT
> and print washing trays I do not need. On a table goes
> the enlarger, the processor and a changing pup-tent.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a thin fine amber colored silk that allows light through.
> Nothing in the bathroom though. What do you think?

 If you cover the windows with something light proof [heavy drapes or just
something you can move into place] then you can avoid the pup tent. The
other idea might be to try and see if Rosco sells a lighting gel that would
turn the window into a big safe light. They seem to sell almost everything
else. Personally I'd feel better if the window was blocked off. Doesn't need
to be anything extreme or permenant. Two sets of drapes work just fine if
thick enough. Are quick to put  up take down. Pushing a cardboard insert
into the window opening works also. Instant darkness and totally removable.

     If you're using drums for prints you might find it less then
thrilling. I use drums for colour and they work fine but it's more of a
hassle then trays for B&W. You do save on chemicals. Drums are a much slower
process.

      The filter is going to depend on your water. I forget the issues on
filters. Other then they need to be matched to the flow required.

    Nick
Gary Beasley - 28 Mar 2004 16:11 GMT
>Thanks Nick, but anything that takes up space like trays
>and print washing trays I do not need. On a table goes
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Alex

There used to be a product called rubylith and one called amberlith
which came in rolls big enough to cover a window. Since the digital
revolution most print shops quit using this stuff and it may be
possible to get some for a song. I'd go for a red filter on the window
for VC paper as you never know what the quality of light is from the
outside, it may fog the paper with an amber filter if it's too bright.
Nick Zentena - 28 Mar 2004 18:14 GMT
> There used to be a product called rubylith and one called amberlith
> which came in rolls big enough to cover a window. Since the digital
> revolution most print shops quit using this stuff and it may be
> possible to get some for a song. I'd go for a red filter on the window
> for VC paper as you never know what the quality of light is from the
> outside, it may fog the paper with an amber filter if it's too bright.

 I know a local art supply shop sells it. You need to ask for it but it's
still for sale.

     Nick
AArDvarK - 28 Mar 2004 20:33 GMT
I found the maker's site: http://www.ulano.com/
It looks like, by what I read, that it has a peel-away
backing ... not like it is a sheet on a roll. They get
very techy in the explanation.

Alex

> > There used to be a product called rubylith and one called amberlith
> > which came in rolls big enough to cover a window. Since the digital
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>       Nick
David Nebenzahl - 28 Mar 2004 21:51 GMT
On 3/28/2004 11:33 AM AArDvarK spake thus:

> I found the maker's site: http://www.ulano.com/
> It looks like, by what I read, that it has a peel-away
> backing ... not like it is a sheet on a roll. They get
> very techy in the explanation.

It is on a roll, and it does have a peel-away backing. I used to use the stuff
for its intended purpose, which was making flats (stripped-up negatives on
masking sheets) for burning plates for offset printing. It (Rubylith) is deep
red and should do fine for a safelight, but you need to get the amount of
light down also. Just putting it on a window won't work; there will be too
much light.

Signature

... but never have I encountered a guy who could not be bothered
to make his own case on his own show.

- Eric Alterman on his appearance on Dennis Miller's bomb of a show
on CNBC (3/17/04)

AArDvarK - 29 Mar 2004 00:43 GMT
> On 3/28/2004 11:33 AM AArDvarK spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> light down also. Just putting it on a window won't work; there will be too
> much light.

Yeah ... it's only little 60 watt "ge" bulbs outdoors.
They come on at night as door lights (at people's doors)
Alex
David Nebenzahl - 29 Mar 2004 03:16 GMT
On 3/28/2004 3:43 PM AArDvarK spake thus:

>> On 3/28/2004 11:33 AM AArDvarK spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Yeah ... it's only little 60 watt "ge" bulbs outdoors. They come on at
> night as door lights (at people's doors)

Ah, I see, said the blind man. So your original subject header wasn't quite
accurate: it's really a "nightlight darkroom". Ah so. Should work fine as a
"free" safelight, then.

Signature

... but never have I encountered a guy who could not be bothered
to make his own case on his own show.

- Eric Alterman on his appearance on Dennis Miller's bomb of a show
on CNBC (3/17/04)

Nick Zentena - 28 Mar 2004 21:59 GMT
> I found the maker's site: http://www.ulano.com/
> It looks like, by what I read, that it has a peel-away
> backing ... not like it is a sheet on a roll. They get
> very techy in the explanation.

 It used to come in various types. The local places sells small sheets
[8x10?]. Big sheets. The type with glue on the back is I think so you can
put it on and then use a sharp blade to cut away parts. The part you leave
on would block light. The part that you remove would expose the paper/film.

  Nick
Gary Beasley - 28 Mar 2004 23:57 GMT
>I found the maker's site: http://www.ulano.com/
>It looks like, by what I read, that it has a peel-away
>backing ... not like it is a sheet on a roll. They get
>very techy in the explanation.
>
>Alex

In this app you would leave it on the backing and place the peelable
side against the window. Several layers could be done to drop the
light level. You could also block most of the window area with
cardboard to reduce the light level. I've made safelights with the
stuff that worked very well.

>> > There used to be a product called rubylith and one called amberlith
>> > which came in rolls big enough to cover a window. Since the digital
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>>       Nick
Bob Salomon - 29 Mar 2004 00:16 GMT
> >I found the maker's site: http://www.ulano.com/
> >It looks like, by what I read, that it has a peel-away
> >backing ... not like it is a sheet on a roll. They get
> >very techy in the explanation.
> >
> >Alex

Why not just get some black-out curtains and not gunk up the windows?

it is not very difficult to make a frame covered with black-out fabric
and put in in the window when you want a darkroom and in a closet or
behind a door when you want a bathroom.

It can be eiter friction fit or use some hook & loop material.

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Bob Salomon - 28 Mar 2004 09:48 GMT
> I have no way of having a real darkroom. But I
> wonder if it is possible to do it with stuff such
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Alex

Developing is simple. A Combi Plan tank and a changing bag is all you
need. Printing can also be done in daylight but you would need to make a
box to cover the easel and a bellows arrangement to attach to the lens
and a changing bag attached to the box large enough to let you store and
remove paper and place it in the easel. You then need enough space in
the box to put the exposed paper in a drum and a larger enough opening
in the bag to remove the drum from the bag.

It is usually much easier to put a platform over a bathtub and make a
bathroom dark enougn to print in.

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AArDvarK - 28 Mar 2004 13:02 GMT
> > I have no way of having a real darkroom. But I
> > wonder if it is possible to do it with stuff such
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> It is usually much easier to put a platform over a bathtub and make a
> bathroom dark enougn to print in.

Thanks, that sounds very odd, a big "box"? ...
With the enlarger pointing down into it... I live
in an open complex of apartments and outside
all my windows are outdoor lamps everywhere.
So I think I would need opaque amber sheeting
that allows light through it to cover the inside
of the windows to the corners, and that would
be my light source for paper work. I put film into
a developing tank in a changing pup-tent, develop,
stop, wash, harden, and into the enlarger it goes,
grain focus then expose and into a tube it goes for
developing with a rotary motor. How does that
sound? Do you think it would work?

Alex
Bob Salomon - 28 Mar 2004 18:53 GMT
> Thanks, that sounds very odd, a big "box"? ...
> With the enlarger pointing down into it...

Actually that is how wet demos were done at trade shows and in stores
and those places are far more difficult to make light tight then a
bathroom in your home.

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