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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / April 2004400TX Developing Questions
Hey Everyone... I'm a student out at NCSU in Raleigh, and I'm in a documentary photography class...basically, I have some developling questions about 400TX 135. My instructor, who is a very..very...intelligent man, I trust anything that comes out of his mouth told me to really only shoot Tri-X at EI 200, since it's really only a 400 speed film 'in the lab'. He spoke to contrast issues that I think I understand, but I didn' 100% understand him. Anyways, I went ahead and shot some 400TX at EI 200, and I'm ready to develop. He told me to develop it at the 400 times..this is in D-76 1:1, or around 9.5 minutes. I'm just thinking this will give me really thick negatives. Should I develop at the 400 time, since 400TX 'really is' an ISO 200ish film, or should I run it in D-76 at the EI 200 time? Or should I split the difference? I also have access to XTOL (my favorite) and Microdol-X, which I'm starting to use more of. I also have some normally exposed (EI 400) that I'll run normally in the Microdol. Basically, any sense you can make of anything is appreciated. Or just TX developlment tips..going maybe beyond the 'eh, just put it in the camera, shoot it, and run it in D-76!'. Thanks so much. --Adam Attarian > Hey Everyone... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > lab'. He spoke to contrast issues that I think I understand, but I > didn' 100% understand him. Did he also teach how to meter properly? His rating might either be a reasonable compromise or specifically tied to his particulate metering habits. I'd follow his metering directions carefully, expose at 200 and develop as recommended. If you don't like the outcome, then ask the instructor. If you go screwing around with developers before you master metering and also have a consistent developing regime you won't get far. BTW - opinion: forget Microdol-X. It's crap. Always was. : > Hey Everyone... : > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : > lab'. He spoke to contrast issues that I think I understand, but I : > didn' 100% understand him. : Did he also teach how to meter properly? His rating might either be a : reasonable compromise or specifically tied to his particulate metering : habits. I'd follow his metering directions carefully, expose at 200 and : develop as recommended. If you don't like the outcome, then ask the : instructor. : If you go screwing around with developers before you master metering and : also have a consistent developing regime you won't get far. Very good advice. When running speed and development tests you always want to use the same equipment (meters, enlargers, etc) when doing the testing as you will will be using when making the exposures. This is especially true for light meters and thermometers.  SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com I think you'll find that nobody doesn't like d76. After all it's so commonly used that no film manufacturer will ship a film that doesn't do well in d76. If you want to try something different try Kodak's Tmax developer. Dilute 1:9 (one part concentrate to nine parts water) at 75 degrees with 9.5 minutes as a starting point. My testing gives me a film speed of 400 but YMMV. Frank : Hey Everyone... : I'm a student out at NCSU in Raleigh, and I'm in a documentary : photography class...basically, I have some developling questions about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : lab'. He spoke to contrast issues that I think I understand, but I : didn' 100% understand him. : Anyways, I went ahead and shot some 400TX at EI 200, and I'm ready to : develop. He told me to develop it at the 400 times..this is in D-76 : 1:1, or around 9.5 minutes. I'm just thinking this will give me really : thick negatives. Should I develop at the 400 time, since 400TX 'really : is' an ISO 200ish film, or should I run it in D-76 at the EI 200 time? : Or should I split the difference? : I also have access to XTOL (my favorite) and Microdol-X, which I'm : starting to use more of. I also have some normally exposed (EI 400) : that I'll run normally in the Microdol. : Basically, any sense you can make of anything is appreciated. Or just : TX developlment tips..going maybe beyond the 'eh, just put it in the : camera, shoot it, and run it in D-76!'. : Thanks so much. : --Adam Attarian SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com >My instructor, who is a very..very...intelligent man, >I trust anything that comes out of his mouth >He told me to develop it at the 400 times.. >Should I develop at the 400 time[?] Granted, I've taken snips out of your original message, but I don't think I've distorted the meaning. My apologies, if I have. Somebody is paying for your instruction from this very, very intelligent man. I would suggest that you 1) do it his way, at least for the first several weeks, and that 2) if you don't like his way, approach him. Tell him why you're unhappy with his suggestions and ask if you're actually following his procedures correctly. You can get free advice from this newsgroup any time. You'll have your paid instructor's time for just a short while. Even if your professor is full of himself and isn't competent, you'll still learn a lot by using his procedures until you've mastered them and *then* moving on to something else. -- Eric http://canid.com/ > I'm a student out at NCSU in Raleigh, and I'm in a documentary > photography class...basically, I have some developling questions about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lab'. He spoke to contrast issues that I think I understand, but I > didn' 100% understand him. Hi Adam, Having done B&W photography at various stages in my life, and having been consistently frustrated with the inconsistency of my results, I have determined that I must use some kind of methodology for objectively measuring of the effects of EI and development time on negative density. I'm very much at the beginning of this learning curve and defer to the folks on this list who know way, way more about this topic than I do. But if this approach appeals to you, I will share that I have found the following website very helpful in understanding how to determine EI and development time for B&W film: http://www.zone2tone.co.uk/. This site presents as simple and as clear an approach as I've found (see http://www.zone2tone.co.uk/testingm.htm specifically). I am experimenting with measuring film density using a $25 print exposure monitor. If you're interested in learning about that, see this thread http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=b379902d.040 3171641.474a2dd3%40posting.google.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie %3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26q%3Dglaser%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch%26meta%3Dgroup%253Dr ec.photo.darkroom, on which I plan to follow up soon. Best of luck. --Phil > Having done B&W photography at various stages in my life, and having > been consistently frustrated with the inconsistency of my results, I > have determined that I must use some kind of methodology FWIW: I too was lost in the wilderness. No matter what I did and how I did it the results were inconsistent. The problem turned out to be the tap water. Things are now ho-hum: "Of course it comes out as expected, why wouldn't it?" Try a jug, 69 cents, cheap: it will either fix the problem or rule out water quality as a cause. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ Nick, Are you talking about our wonderful Cleveland water? If so, I will be using bottled water from now on. How about rince water? Tom Signature<<< There are only 10 kinds of people...Those that understand binary and those that don't. >>> > > > Having done B&W photography at various stages in my life, and having [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Try a jug, 69 cents, cheap: it will either fix the problem > or rule out water quality as a cause. > Are you talking about our wonderful Cleveland water? If so, I will be using > bottled water from now on. How about rince [sic] water? The water quality around here is just too variable: are the steel mills running? what about in Detroit? has the bottom mud been stirred up by wind and wave? what is the organic load? how are the zebra mussels doing? does the water department have enough money to buy chemicals this month? I use distilled water for developer stock solution, diluting stock film developer to working strength and again in the final Photoflo rinse. Distilled is _really_ needed around here when using homeopathic dilutions of Rodinal. I couldn't get anything weaker than 1:25 to work at all until going the distilled water route. Richard Knoppow suggests, when making up developer stock, to boil the water first to get rid of dissolved oxygen, cooling it to 100F and then slowly (no air bubbles) stirring in the powder. If you go through stock soln. slowly I am sure this is a good idea. For each roll of '35mm film I use 16oz of distilled water - 9 cents worth - it is not an extravagance. For paper processing I use tap water except for Dektol stock. Dektol lasts longer if not made up with tap water. -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ > Distilled is _really_ needed around here when using homeopathic dilutions > of Rodinal. Very nice phrase... > Richard Knoppow suggests, when making up developer stock, to boil the water > first to get rid of dissolved oxygen, cooling it to 100F and then slowly > (no air bubbles) stirring in the powder. If you go through stock soln. > slowly I am sure this is a good idea. Yes it must be... Stock solutions for what I use are at Rodinal-type strength, except for paper and so I use distilled for this. > I use distilled water for developer stock solution, diluting stock film > developer to working strength and again in the final Photoflo rinse. I was able to get a used reverse osmosis water filter for free from someone who found that the water produced was too costly and "too pure" for drinking. For those that don't know, a reverse osmosis filter produces almost distilled quality water from tap water. The down sides are that it has too much of the minerals removed for drinking in large amounts and almost 90% of the water that passes through it ends up down the drain. Since I only use it for photographic solutions, I want the quality and I don't care about "wasting" a few hundred liters a year of water, I just dump it in my garden. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson gsm@mendelson.com > > I use distilled water for developer stock solution, diluting stock film > > developer to working strength and again in the final Photoflo rinse. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > -- > Geoffrey S. Mendelson gsm@mendelson.com Film speed and contrast are not intrinsically related. That is, if you over expose, you should not necessarily under develop to compensate. You should under develop to compenstae for a higher than normal scene brightness range. Under developing an over exposed normal SBR will lead to printing problems. The old rule was "Expose for the shadows. Develop for the highlights." Ask your instructor what this means if you don't already know. >>Are you talking about our wonderful Cleveland water? If so, I will be using >>bottled water from now on. How about rince [sic] water? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > (no air bubbles) stirring in the powder. If you go through stock soln. > slowly I am sure this is a good idea. You are also supposed to decant the water after boiling to get rid of the precipitates caused by boiling. That is important. Bert > > > ... talking about our wonderful Cleveland water ... > > I use distilled water for developer stock solution ... > > Richard Knoppow suggests ... boiling the water ... > > to get rid of dissolved oxygen > You are also supposed to decant the water after boiling > to get rid of the precipitates caused by boiling... Agreed when using tap water and you are trying to get rid of some of the salts and organics. When using distilled water there isn't any precipitate and the developer can be added when the water has cooled to ~100F. FWIW, I use jugged grocery store distilled water and don't boil. Developer lasts long enough for my purposes - but Dektol is the only chemical I make up as a stock solution. For film all my developers are mixed just before use and used 1-shot. Ditto stop, fix, tone and clear. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ >>>>... talking about our wonderful Cleveland water ... >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > For film all my developers are mixed just before use and used > 1-shot. Ditto stop, fix, tone and clear. I was referring to Richard's recommendation to boil the water, not to the distilled water part. Bert > I'm a student out at NCSU in Raleigh, and I'm in a documentary > photography class...basically, I have some developling questions about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lab'. He spoke to contrast issues that I think I understand, but I > didn' 100% understand him. Tri-X has lots of latitude for overexposure, but very little for underexposure. So if you deliberately overexpose by a stop, as rating it at EI200 does, you are likely to get a higher proportion of easily printable negatives. Once you lose shadow detail by underexposing, there is no way to get it back. > Anyways, I went ahead and shot some 400TX at EI 200, and I'm ready to > develop. He told me to develop it at the 400 times..this is in D-76 > 1:1, or around 9.5 minutes. I'm just thinking this will give me really > thick negatives. Should I develop at the 400 time, since 400TX 'really > is' an ISO 200ish film, or should I run it in D-76 at the EI 200 time? > Or should I split the difference? Whatever. Just do something, and see how you like printing the negatives that result. If your prints are mostly too flat, increase the developing time next time. If they're mostly too contrasty (block highlights in particular), decrease development next time. If you're not getting enough shadow detail, increase exposure. > I also have access to XTOL (my favorite) and Microdol-X, which I'm > starting to use more of. I also have some normally exposed (EI 400) > that I'll run normally in the Microdol. Many people who use Tri-X swear by HC-110. > > I also have access to XTOL (my favorite) and Microdol-X, which I'm > > starting to use more of. I also have some normally exposed (EI 400) > > that I'll run normally in the Microdol. > > Many people who use Tri-X swear by HC-110. I've used XTOL and I love the qualities that it gives the negatives. But the last couple of times I mixed up the solution I had a hard time getting Part A dissolved and into solution. I use distilled water and tried mixing at 70F or so. Does anyone else have this problem? I get good results using Tri-X 400( I can only find the t-grained any more) exposed at 200EI and developed 1:1 for 9min 30sec at 68F, agitating continously for the first 60 sec then 5 sec every minute thereafter. I pull the film at 9:30 and directly into a distilled water only tank for a minute with initial 10 sec agitation, then I let it sit while the developer exhausts itself in the shadow details. Then fix, wash, photo flo, then dry. I find I get good latitude for my style of shooting without excessive grain. What developers do others like best and what are some of your favorite tried and true techniques? |
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