I've been printing Black and White for a couple of years now and am fairly
confident.
I thought that I might have a go at some colour (RA4) just for fun, but
without the expense of buying automatic colour processor because I don't see
this as a regular/long term thing.
So I bought some RA4 paper on eBay - "Tetenal Work" - the pack looked fairly
new and unopened.
I bought a "Photchem" RA4 kit, and found a "Cibachrome" colour drum in a
cupboard in the darkroom.
I filled a very large (16x20) tray with water at 30degC, mixed up my
developer and bleach and put everything in the tray to warm up.
Following the instructions in the kit, I started off with the following
process;
Dev - 200secs @ 30degC (constant agitation)
Wash 90secs
Bleach/fix 90secs
Wash 90secs
My first test strip was way too dark, but after a couple more attempts, I
have managed to get to the state where the exposure looks about right but I
cannot seem to get my whites white !
The base colour of the paper (even unexposed edges) comes out a dirty
grey/green colour every time and overall the colours look very muddy.
I thought that perhaps the bleach/fix was not working, so I have tried
mixing up another batch and I have tried extending the bleach/fix time - no
better.
Then I thought perhaps that I was over developing - so I have been
progressively reducing development time from 200 secs, now down to 40secs
(@30degC) - still no better and I am now starting to lose shadow density and
contrast.
Any ideas what is going on ? - Perhaps the paper is all fogged ? - I can buy
some more paper but I would be grateful if anybody else can provide some
thoughts. I have provided a scan of my latest test strip here ..
http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/album_fullsize.html?c_photo=7240876
And, for comparison, here is the same scan of the original (commercial)
print ...
http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/album_fullsize.html?c_photo=7240877
Any thoughts/comments most welcome
Bob W
Robert Whitehouse - 27 Feb 2004 22:31 GMT
The original links that I pasted don't seem to work - hopefully this one
will ...
http://www.photobox.co.uk/public/detail.html?c_album=594513
> I've been printing Black and White for a couple of years now and am fairly
> confident.
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> Bob W
Nick Zentena - 27 Feb 2004 23:20 GMT
> I filled a very large (16x20) tray with water at 30degC, mixed up my
> developer and bleach and put everything in the tray to warm up.
How are you keeping the tray at 30C? An open tray is going to drop fairly
quickly unless your room temp is 30C.
> Following the instructions in the kit, I started off with the following
> process;
>
> Dev - 200secs @ 30degC (constant agitation)
And I thought my kit used long times-)
> The base colour of the paper (even unexposed edges) comes out a dirty
> grey/green colour every time and overall the colours look very muddy.
> Then I thought perhaps that I was over developing - so I have been
> progressively reducing development time from 200 secs, now down to 40secs
> (@30degC) - still no better and I am now starting to lose shadow density and
> contrast.
I don't think you can overdevelop. The process basically goes to
completion. 40 secs at 30C is less then the normal times for at higher
temps. Lower temps require more time.
> Any ideas what is going on ? - Perhaps the paper is all fogged ? - I can buy
I can only guess your temps are off. I can't tell anything from the web
photo.
Nick
Francis A. Miniter - 28 Feb 2004 04:37 GMT
Hi Robert,
Comments are interleaved.
>I've been printing Black and White for a couple of years now and am fairly
>confident.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Following the instructions in the kit, I started off with the following
>process;
It would appear that you are not giving the paper a pre-wash after
exposure. This is very important in order to remove the cyanic coating
on the paper. Failure to remove this coating results in a case of the
blue/green meanies, as Dr. Chapman has called it, in Photo Techniques
USA. A vigorous 60 second pre-rinse is advisable.
>Dev - 200secs @ 30degC (constant agitation)
This is much too long for an RA-4 process. The time is in fact correct
for the C-41 process to develop color negatives. At 30° C., 60 seconds
is sufficient. While RA-4 paper develops to completion and cannot be
overdeveloped, it may be that excessive time in the bath can have a
deleterious effect on the emulsion. That last is speculation on my
part. Try much shorter times, though
>Wash 90secs
Half that would be adequate.
>Bleach/fix 90secs
If you keep the Blix bath at the same temperature as the developer, you
can use your time in developer as a reasonable guide to the time in
Blix. So, 60 seconds would suffice.
>Wash 90secs
I like 2 - 3 minutes.
>My first test strip was way too dark, but after a couple more attempts, I
>have managed to get to the state where the exposure looks about right but I
>cannot seem to get my whites white !
>
>The base colour of the paper (even unexposed edges) comes out a dirty
>grey/green colour every time and overall the colours look very muddy.
Very well could be the blue/green meanies. Dr. Chapmen advises that,
when adding CD-3 as a solid to the solution, first add little ethanol
and diethylene glycol to facilitate solubility and keep developer
particles from adhering to the print.
><snip>
>
>Bob W
>
>
Francis A. Miniter
Robert Whitehouse - 28 Feb 2004 07:51 GMT
Francis, Nick,
Many thanks for your comments, these are very helpful.
I will ceratinly try the pre-wash, this sounds promising. As regards keeping
the temp. constant, this is why I am using a large deep dray, so that I can
put lots of water in, plus drum, plus chemicals, all in the same tub of warm
water. I am monitoring this and putting a bit of hot in every couple of
minutes to keep the temp. constant.
I will have another go tomorrow and let you know progress.
Thanks again,
Bob W
> Hi Robert,
>
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Francis A. Miniter
Nick Zentena - 28 Feb 2004 14:02 GMT
I found this:
http://www.jobo-usa.com/instructions/instructions_tetenal_monopkra4.htm
Scroll down to faults. You're not using a safelight?
Nick
Robert Whitehouse - 28 Feb 2004 15:30 GMT
Nick,
No - I'm not using a safelight, but then the room is not *-TOTALLY-* dark -
there is a tiny neon lamp by a power socket and there is a flourescent
"exit" sign which are difficult to cover up. I can JUST see my hand in front
of my face (but only just). I was hoping that this might be dark enough for
prints (but I wouldn't process film in this much light).
Bob
I
> I found this:
http://www.jobo-usa.com/instructions/instructions_tetenal_monopkra4.htm
> Scroll down to faults. You're not using a safelight?
>
> Nick
Francis A. Miniter - 28 Feb 2004 23:39 GMT
>Nick,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Bob
>
Seems awfully bright to me. Try to throw something black over the exit
sign.
Francis A. Miniter
Maxwell Sandford - 01 Mar 2004 17:56 GMT
Just a wash following the developer is risky. Use a stop-bath formulated
for color processing. This will not be especially acid, pH 5.5-6.5 is
typical, but it will contain Sod. bisulfite to eliminate color couplers that
react with blix to cause stains. Make the darkroom dark. Don't tolerate
any light sources at all, especially an illuminated EXIT sign! I'd go after
that one with wire cutters and electrical tape.
S.Baggett - 02 Mar 2004 03:06 GMT
I agree that "developer caused bleaching problems" in RA-4 is an
under- reported national problem. Well, maybe not to the extent we
need a support group or anything. Developer carryover into the blix
will cause ugly whites and even the unexposed edges will have that
"sickly" look. When I quit using a stop bath, I soon had a problem
that sounds exactly like this one. I found it took 4 (four) 30-second
washes of fresh water to eliminate all of the gray-green ickyness from
the white edges. I went back to a 30-second stop bath (just using
acetic acid) followed by one 30-second wash and I was happy again. I
also upped the amount of blix replenisher I was using, just to be
safe.
>Just a wash following the developer is risky. Use a stop-bath formulated
>for color processing. This will not be especially acid, pH 5.5-6.5 is
>typical, but it will contain Sod. bisulfite to eliminate color couplers that
>react with blix to cause stains. Make the darkroom dark. Don't tolerate
>any light sources at all, especially an illuminated EXIT sign! I'd go after
>that one with wire cutters and electrical tape.
Ed Berger - 28 Feb 2004 14:15 GMT
First, I would get some new paper, just to remove that variable.
Also, are you loading it in complete darkness? I would also suggest
using one of the room temperature RA-4 kits (Tetenal or
Photocolor-Patterson). I've been printing color in trays and find it
no more difficult than B&W, although getting the proper filtration
takes some practice.
Nick Zentena - 29 Feb 2004 16:01 GMT
> It would appear that you are not giving the paper a pre-wash after
> exposure. This is very important in order to remove the cyanic coating
> on the paper. Failure to remove this coating results in a case of the
> blue/green meanies, as Dr. Chapman has called it, in Photo Techniques
> USA. A vigorous 60 second pre-rinse is advisable.
I'm wondering about this. With the current Kodak paper I don't seem to
have any problems but I picked up some older Supra III and I think I'm
getting the meanies. So all it takes is a 60 second water soak?
Thanks
Nick
S.Baggett - 29 Feb 2004 02:28 GMT
I had the same problem once and it turned out to be too much carryover
of the developer into the blix. The alkaline developer was raising
the pH of the acid blix too much. Use 2 or 3 washes between the dev
and blix or use an acid stop-bath + wash between the dev and blix.
This solved my problem of the "dirty gray-green whites".
>I've been printing Black and White for a couple of years now and am fairly
>confident.
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
>Bob W
Victor Falkteg - 29 Feb 2004 02:58 GMT
If you want an advice:
1. Use only NEW FRESH paper. I prefer Kodak Ultra Endura because of the
quality, but this is a matter of personal taste. ONLY use the huge well know
makers paper.
2. Do NOT use different kind of hobby chemistry. Use for example Kodak
standard chemistry (developer replenisher, starter and bleach fix). They are
very good and works fine at 35 degrees C or some higher depending of the
version.
3. You do NOT need any stop bath or rinse after the developer if you let the
developer dropp from the print for 5 seconds. The recomended replenisher
rate takes care of normal carry over.
4. You do NOT need any pre rinse in water. This is specific for some drum
processors.
5. NEVE, NEVER try to use a drum processor. Use some kind of slot processor
(Nova is one) or even open try is better then a drum. To use a drum
processor is to beg for truble.
6. NEVER, NEVER try to experiment with different time in the developer. 45
sec at 35 degrees Celius is right for Kodak chemistry. Take it ot and let it
drop for five seconds after 40 seconds. And 45 seconds in the bleachfix.
Never try to change. But don't care if the time in the bleach is a little
longer. You can turn on white light after 10 seconds on the bleach fix.
If you follow these 6 points, I am 100% sure you will have perfectly
developed prints. I have been folowing these points for many years and I'm
making prints of the highest quality in my basement lab.
And, the good thing with a slot processor is that you can keep the developer
in it for months if you replenish it right. You save a lot of money. I use
my drum processor in the garden, it's nice with some flower in.
Victor
> I've been printing Black and White for a couple of years now and am fairly
> confident.
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> Bob W
S.Baggett - 29 Feb 2004 04:10 GMT
I think this advice is too extreme.
Jobo has been in business for many years with many thousands of people
successfully using drums to process prints. They have made over a
dozen different drum processing units over the years. I started drum
processing in 1983 and didn't start using a Jobo (for better temp
control) until 1994. I have never used anything but a drum from the
EP-2 days until now.
I've tried all of the "hobby chemistry" and they all give good
results. The unit cost (per print) is higher with most of the "room
temperature" kits, but their results are indistinguishable from that
derived from using Kodak chemistry alone.
I am currently (tonight) using 16-month old Fuji Crystal Archive and
getting some great prints. Of course, I store it in my freezer when
not in use. Paper is not like vegetables, but it does need
refridgeration to stay "good".
The paper itself will absorb some developer and some will carry over
to the blix. Usually 2 30-second washes will take care of this but
you can use a 3-5% acetic acid stop bath followed by 30-second rinse
and this will certainly take care of the problem.
RA-4 is quite tolerant of development times. I wouldn't go less than
45 seconds or more than 90 seconds, but I've experimented with as much
as 2 minutes in the developer. All that was accomplished was a slight
increase in density and about a 5-7 cc shift toward the magenta. I
would still pick one temp/time combo (I use 1:00 at 35deg C) and stick
with it, for consistency. If you use a color analyzer (as I do), you
should maintain a consistent "process" throughout to achieve
consistent results and you will waste less paper on "test prints".
You can also replenish RA-4 when using a drum, but because of the
greater "aeration" in the drum you should use at least 3 times the
recommended replacement rate. I replenish (with RA-4 replenisher) at
a rate of 30ml/100ml of developer. I use the same for the blix.
This particular problem sounds exactly like he is not giving the print
sufficient wash after the developer which is causing too much of a
rise in pH of the blix. I"ve "been there, done that" and I'd bet my
favorite cat that this is the problem.
>If you want an advice:
>
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>>
>> Bob W
Jim Phelps - 29 Feb 2004 20:35 GMT
> I think this advice is too extreme.
I also agree!!! Been using drums since the Kodak paper of choice was
Ektacolor 37RC. Unicolor drums until about 6 years ago I upgraded to the
Jobo. However, I've upgraded again.
[snip]
> This particular problem sounds exactly like he is not giving the print
> sufficient wash after the developer which is causing too much of a
> rise in pH of the blix. I"ve "been there, done that" and I'd bet my
> favorite cat that this is the problem.
Not sure I agree with this theory, but it could be possible. When I said
above, I upgraded again, I've been using a ThermaPhot ACP 302 for the last
several months. With Tetenal Pro chemistry and this two bath roller
processor, I have never had the "blue - green meanies" nor problems with my
whites (sounds like a Tide commercial:~). Sure, carry over is at a minimum
(rollers act as wonderful squeegies), but 25 8X10's and a couple of 11X14's
thru 2.5 liters in one session is quite a bit. I always start a session
with a standard print and end it the same way. So I can see if there's been
a shift. Could also be that Tetenal's Blix is more tolerant to Dev
contamination? Maybe.
Anyway, drum processors work fine. Jobo is still in business and making
them after all these years...
Jim
Robert Brodie - 01 Mar 2004 16:55 GMT
Me too. Never had a problem drum processing. I currently use 2 Jobo
processors with no problems. I use them for single print runs instead of
setting up my Durst Printo Processor(roller transport) Temp is critical.
Try putting a heavy black trash bag over the exit sign.Also a fishtank
heater will keep the temperature in a pinch.
I think Jobo also has a ambient temp. developer for RA4. Watch your color
corrections too. Poor whites can be a number of problems from temperature,
contamination, or just color corrections at the enlarger.
> > I think this advice is too extreme.
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Jim