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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2004Xtol being phased out?
Is there any truth to this rumor that Xtol may be phased out. I have just got back into darkroom work with some xtol and to not want to get familiar with a developer that may not be here in the near future. Any thoughts? > Is there any truth to this rumor that Xtol may be phased out. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Any thoughts? No. A few years ago Kodak stopped making the 1 liter packages because of quality control problems, so 5 liter is now the smallest size available. There are no known plans to discontinue the product. I would suspect it to be around for as along as other Kodak B&W developers. No.... Both Xtol and Tmax used heavily by commercial film processors... They are the end product of a 100 years of Kodak research in BW developers, and they will be produced <cheap to manufacture, also> as long as Kodak is in the film business... <ok you trolls, don't start on that rumor again> denny > Is there any truth to this rumor that Xtol may be phased out. > No.... Both Xtol and Tmax used heavily by commercial film processors... > They are the end product of a 100 years of Kodak research in BW developers, > and they will be produced <cheap to manufacture, also> as long as Kodak is > in the film business... So why has Kodak stopped producing Portra 400BW and Portra 400UC (the latter only months after having introduced it)? Where's the logic in Kodak's decisions? I really am not surprised by anything Kodak does, although if it actually did anything right for a change, that would probably be refreshing. I wouldn't assume that 100 years of research would stop Kodak from making a stupid mistake; nothing has ever stopped it from making even more stupid mistakes in the past.  SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. As this seems to have been a by-product of my earlier reply to a post about Xtol ! Here in the UK Kodak ceased production of all powdered chemicals last year, and they are now imported by an independant distributor. This led to problems during the transition period. This dealership has very strong ties with Kodak and is the distributor of Kodak Express Minilabs. When I ordered Xtol early last year it was unavailable here and one major darkroom supplier could not obtain any at all. I had the last two packs from another. It has to be said Kodak's market share of B&W photochemicals has always been very small here in the UK anyway compared to Ilford etc. Unfortunately as the B&W market appears to be shrinking* there are lower stock levels in shops & distributors. So there are times when less popular products are out of stock. This is exacerbated by the problems of importing from the States when shipments can take anything from 10 days to 6 weeks to arrive. I import equipment into the UK, and delays are outside outside our control or our US suppliers, and are often caused by Customs and the carriers. (Air freight is great but adds much higher transport costs). * I'll qualify the appears to be shrinking, this seems to be mainly due to shops & dealers worried about carrying stocks of conventional materials as more people switch to digital, and means we have to rely more & more on niche suppliers. Xtol is not one of Kodak's best selling developers and if we want them to keep producing it we must use it, and more importantly get others to use it. If not we could end up with the old faithfull D-76 - which I've never used ! The "hands on" feedback I had while in the US & Canada was that Xtol had not been selling well at all, and that was in two large professional photo stores, as well as a number of smaller shops, (as I tried to by some). If it was discontinued would all be lost ? Alternative Formulae have been published and someone else could step into the breach and produce a substitute. So is it being phased out ? Who knows. It's no longer economic to manufacture Kodak's powdered chemicals here in Europe, Kodak will look at their product range in the States . . . . . . All I'd say to finish is it's a great developer and I for one want to continue using it. Ian >Xtol is not one of Kodak's best selling developers and if we want them to >keep producing it we must use it, and more importantly get others to use it. >If not we could end up with the old faithfull D-76 - which I've never used >! ...and which for me has produced more consistent results than Xtol. Go figure. Ed Can only speak for myself, I've been using Xtol now for quite a while, actually since just after it first became available (in the UK), and have never had a problem, it's extremely consistent and has far better keeping properties when compared to D76 ( I have used ID-11 which is or rather was the same formula ). Ian > >Xtol is not one of Kodak's best selling developers and if we want them to > >keep producing it we must use it, and more importantly get others to use it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed > I have used ID-11 which is or rather was > the same formula ). ...or rather was?? Have I missed something? Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Feb. 23, 2004 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses ID-11 has been reformulated and is no longer identical to D-76 Ian > > I have used ID-11 which is or rather was > > the same formula ). > > ...or rather was?? Have I missed something? > > Ralf > ID-11 has been reformulated and is no longer identical to D-76 I see. Any idea when that happened? Ralf SignatureRalf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Feb. 23, 2004 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses >> ID-11 has been reformulated and is no longer identical to D-76 >I see. Any idea when that happened? Anchell & Troop's "Film Developing Cookbook" says (pp41/42) "Note: Although Kodak D-76 and Ilford ID-11 are ostensibly the same formula there are a few differences. Ilford sells ID-11 in two separate packages. The first contain metol, the second sulfite. This eliminates the need for some of the additives which Kodak includes in their single package and may allow the Ilford formula to perform closer to the original." Ilford themselves give conflicting indications. I have a 100 Delta 135 box (expiry date Jul 2004) that gives different times for ID-11 and D-76 (11mins for ID-11 1+1 and 12mins for D-76 1+1), yet a 100 Delta 120 box (expiry date Aug 2003) gives the same time (11mins) for both. Not sure when ID-11 was reformulated. But the US product differed from the UK product and the reformulation is due to the use of Phenidone instead of Metol. There's plenty written about this elsewhere, and I'm sure others have more knowledge on this. Here in the UK it is I think still Metol based, but then I prefer X-tol anyway ! Ian > > ID-11 has been reformulated and is no longer identical to D-76 > > I see. Any idea when that happened? > > Ralf >Not sure when ID-11 was reformulated. But the US product differed from the >UK product and the reformulation is due to the use of Phenidone instead of >Metol. No Phenidone here in the US. http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/sds/Products/00110071.pdf INGREDIENT NAME CAS No. WEIGHT P-METHYLAMINOPHENOL SULFATE 55-55-0 10-30 % HYDROQUINONE 123-31-9 60-100 % Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com Please remove the "_" when replying via email >ID-11 has been reformulated and is no longer identical to D-76 > >Ian To state that they are identical, one would need to know the exact formulas of the shipping versions. This isn't possible unless you have worked for both E.K. and Ilford and even then one would have to have been so employed very recently as the formulas may change at any time. The very reason I mix my own. Regards, John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com Please remove the "_" when replying via email Others state that they are identical and indeed the Kodak & Ilford published formulae are the same. I seem to remember the same formula from other manufacturers as well, in older manuals. I'd totally agree that there are probably different additives etc in both, and obviously manufacturers tweak their products and don't wish their competitors to know how. But for all practical purposes if you make up your own from the well published identical formula you will get results extremly similar to the packaged products Ian > >ID-11 has been reformulated and is no longer identical to D-76 > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com > Please remove the "_" when replying via email > Can only speak for myself, I've been using Xtol now for quite a while, > actually since just after it first became available (in the UK), and have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ian According to Calumet in the UK, they still have it in stock. If Calumet and Silverprint still have Xtol in stock that doesn't amount to many packs on UK shelves does it. Particularly compared to 18 months ago when it was still being made amd packed in the UK for the European market. > > Can only speak for myself, I've been using Xtol now for quite a while, > > actually since just after it first became available (in the UK), and have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > According to Calumet in the UK, they still have it in stock. > If Calumet and Silverprint still have Xtol in stock that doesn't amount to > many packs on UK shelves does it. > > Particularly compared to 18 months ago when it was still being made amd > packed in the UK for the European market. That depends. In the US, very few brick and mortar stores have darkroom supplies anymore, and if they do, the selection is very limited. I buy virtually all my darkroom supplies on the internet. RE: Gary Banuk <gjban@comcast.net> wrote > I have just got back into darkroom work with some xtol and do not > want to get familiar with a developer that may not be here in the near > future. > > Any thoughts? Do Homebrew. I understand that Mytol is the Homebrew equivalent. Dan |
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