Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2004
substitue trays
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Matt Ashbrook - 14 Feb 2004 05:15 GMT Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to develop prints in as opposed to buying new trays? I recently bought a larger easel very reasonably and I'd like to keep from spending over a hundred bucks for a set of 20 x 24 trays. So I thought I would buy a few of these storage boxes and cut them down to trays . Then i could get buy for about $25.00. They wouldn't have to last forever at that price - in case I finally make the digital move.
Thanks, Matt A.
David Nebenzahl - 14 Feb 2004 08:14 GMT On 2/13/2004 9:15 PM Matt Ashbrook spake thus:
> Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > $25.00. They wouldn't have to last forever at that price - in case I finally > make the digital move. No! You *cannot* use those trays for photography! What on earth were you thinking? You *must* use only the Official Approved Photo-Type Trays that You Buy at the Photo Store. Anything else will give inferior results.
Sheesh, when will people learn?
 Signature It's fun to demonize the neo-cons and rejoice in their discomfiture, but don't make the mistake of thinking US foreign policy was set by Norman Podhoretz or William Kristol. They're the clowns capering about in front of the donkey and the elephant. The donkey says the UN should clean up after them, and the elephant now says the donkey may have a point. Somebody has come out with a dustpan and broom.
- Alexander Cockburn, _CounterPunch_ (http://www.counterpunch.org), 9/17/03
Jorge Omar - 14 Feb 2004 11:38 GMT Yes, photo stores must make a lot of profit selling inexpensive gear at ridiculously high prices, or how else will the owner pay the bills when the world is going digital?
Jorge
> Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" > type of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Matt A. Dan Quinn - 14 Feb 2004 12:00 GMT > Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Matt A. Give one-tray processing a try. Dan
Dennis O'Connor - 14 Feb 2004 12:01 GMT In addition consider paint roller trays, engine oil drip pans, wall paper paste trays, roasting pans <not aluminum>, dryer pans and trays, furnace trays, material handling trays and pans <sturdy, used in factorys>, etc... take a look here at usplastic.com for starters http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category% 5Fname=Trays&Page=1&cookie%5Ftest=1 Rubbermaid stuff on clearance... and do a google for more...
Of course, your pictures will never amount to a tinkers damn if you didn't pay for official photographic trays...
denny
> Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to > develop prints in Mike King - 14 Feb 2004 14:38 GMT I have seen great trays at the home building center about 40x40 looks like heavy duty PVC made to fit under a washing machine for above grade installs to protect what's below from leaks. In that application it think you add a drain but for photo they look about perfect. About $10 US. -- darkroommike
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> In addition consider paint roller trays, engine oil drip pans, wall paper > paste trays, roasting pans <not aluminum>, dryer pans and trays, furnace > trays, material handling trays and pans <sturdy, used in factorys>, etc... > take a look here at usplastic.com for starters http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&categ ory%5Fname=Trays&Page=1&cookie%5Ftest=1
> Rubbermaid stuff on clearance... > and do a google for more... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to > > develop prints in bob - 16 Feb 2004 14:29 GMT > I have seen great trays at the home building center about 40x40 looks > like heavy duty PVC made to fit under a washing machine for above > grade installs to protect what's below from leaks. In that > application it think you add a drain but for photo they look about > perfect. About $10 US. -- > darkroommike If they are PVC, and not ABS, they might make good sink material, too, since they already have sides.
Bob
Robert Feinman - 14 Feb 2004 14:24 GMT > Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Matt A. Should work fine, but the developer tray may stain over time. Don't mix up which you use for which chemical.
 Signature Robert D Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramas and Photoshop Tips http://robertdfeinman.com
Mike King - 14 Feb 2004 14:39 GMT Yes the developer tray will stain, which will then differentiate it from the other trays for all time. Or just label your trays.
-- darkroommike
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> > Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type > > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramas and Photoshop Tips > http://robertdfeinman.com Norman Worth - 14 Feb 2004 15:04 GMT It depends on what they are made of. If it doesn't deteriorate in alkali or mild acid and doesn't exude plasticizer over everything, you are probably OK. I bought a set of Rubbermaid 6X8 inch trays about 30 years ago for use with 5X7s and other small stuff, and they are still among my favorites. Polystyrene, PET, and polycarbonate (Lexan), including rubber filled variants, are generally all right. PVC is usually OK.
> Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Matt A. Nicholas O. Lindan - 14 Feb 2004 16:51 GMT > > ... > > substitute trays > > Rubbermaid etc. Rubbermaid, another company that moved out of NE Ohio...
There is also another old solution:
o Make a frame from four pieces of 1x3, 2x4, AOS*...;
o Lay Visqueen or some other heavy duty plastic wrap in the frame, draping it over and then tucking it under;
o Fill.
Caveat: emptying is a bitch if the trays were built on the floor - as I did when developing some 30x40's.
Emergency trays can be built this way from a cut-down cardboard box and a garbage bag.
Edward Weston is reputed to have used this method, using his rain-coat for the plastic sheeting. Urban legend, I am sure, but one never knows ...
----- *AOS: technical engineering acronym for "Any Old Sh*t"
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Patrick Gainer - 14 Feb 2004 17:46 GMT > > > ... > > substitute trays > > > Rubbermaid etc. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > o Lay Visqueen or some other heavy duty plastic wrap > in the frame, draping it over and then tucking it Don't forget kitty litter boxes.
> under; > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com > Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. lloyd@the-wire.com - 15 Feb 2004 13:48 GMT >Don't forget kitty litter boxes. ... ahhh ... now we see the significance of AOS...
regards, --le
_______________________________________ Lloyd Erlick Portraits, 2219 Gerrard Street East, unit #1, Toronto M4E 2C8 Canada. --- voice 416-686-0326 lloyd@the-wire.com http://www.heylloyd.com _______________________________________
Dan Quinn - 15 Feb 2004 22:34 GMT RE: lloyd@the-wire.com
> > Don't forget kitty litter boxes. To my knowledge 20x24 litter boxes are not made. My kitty litter box is 14x18 outside and very nearly as large as I've ever seen. I've noticed that kitty could use a little more room to maneuver. I may order a 16x20 print tray to use as a kitty litter box. As for 20x24 prints, I'd think one sturdy print tray would do. Dan
Patrick Gainer - 16 Feb 2004 02:15 GMT > RE: lloyd@the-wire.com > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > As for 20x24 prints, I'd think one sturdy print tray would do. > Dan Some have used a trough which can be made of plastic drain pipe and end caps. Use your imagination. See-saw the print through the liquid.
otzi - 16 Feb 2004 06:16 GMT > > RE: lloyd@the-wire.com > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Some have used a trough which can be made of plastic drain pipe and end > caps. Use your imagination. See-saw the print through the liquid. On the telly last night I saw a doco on war photographers, missed his name but as part of the story, vis 2000, there was a section on setting up an exhibition. The darkroom worker was shown sinking a rolled up print and re rolling it back and forth. I know not the result only that the story waffled on about density, sky and redoing the print (24x30) to the photographers satisfaction to the tune of four goes for the exhibition.
otzi - 16 Feb 2004 06:21 GMT Erroneous tab press!!
To continue, -- if the described method works OK one doesn't need such large trays. Has any one an opinion on this method of paper control?
Jorge Omar - 16 Feb 2004 10:42 GMT I've seen a posting in photo.net from a pro lab man in which he recommended such a method for huge prints.
And I've used in the past paint rollers in the shower box floor, with shower water as stop and final wash - but then I don't advise using it in winter...
Jorge
> Erroneous tab press!! > > To continue, -- if the described method works OK one doesn't need such > large trays. Has any one an opinion on this method of paper control? bob - 16 Feb 2004 14:37 GMT > Some have used a trough which can be made of plastic drain pipe and end > caps. Use your imagination. See-saw the print through the liquid. I picked up some stainless steel drywall mud tray at the home center on clearance. I think they were under $5 each. Have not used them yet, but if I do, I will need to cover the edges.
As to the original question, I think the one advantage "official" photo trays have are the depressions in the bottom that keep the prints from sticking, so while shopping for alternatives, you might want to try to find something like that.
Bob
Nicholas O. Lindan - 16 Feb 2004 15:18 GMT "bob" <1xwj.ReverseThePartBeforeTheDot@bellsouthnet> wrote.
> As to the original question, I think the one advantage "official" photo > trays have are the depressions in the bottom that keep the prints from > sticking, so while shopping for alternatives, you might want to try to find > something like that. Good point. They serve several purposes:
o Letting chemicals circulate behind the print
o Keeping the print from sticking to the bottom so that it can slide around the tray when agitated: not so critical when the emulsion is face up, but needed when the emulsion is face down.
o Forming a channel for water to get under the print when the print is lifted from the tray - especially critical with large prints: I once found myself holding two jagged corners as the remainder of the print slid gracefully back into the tray.
I have (had) trays with:
o Flat bottomed stamped steel with black paint. Prints didn't stick, as the trays were 3x4" (?). Came from a Kodak ABC photo lab kit: everything needed to make B&W prints in one small box. Rusted, didn't last more than a few weeks. 40's vintage.
o Hard rubber, shattered when dropped, don't remember the pattern. 50's vintage.
o Sharp ridges: Ok, but the ridges can image on the paper or film if the emulsion lays against them too long. Hard to clean, the ridges interfere with a cleaning sponge and accumulate gunk at the ridge root. The trays I have are injection molded and made by FR and Yankee (I prefer the FRs) - 60's vintage.
o An embossed X, a nice smooth surfaced and rounded X: OK, but large prints stick to the tray at the corners, are hard to pull and don't let the chems circulate as well as they should. Additionally, if the print sticks to the bottom it is hard to get a print-tong/fingernail under the print to lift it. Made with vacuum forming? 70's vintage.
o Array of bumps: The best of the lot - the bumps are smooth so they don't image on a face down sheet; they let chemicals at the back of the sheet; the sheet is kept off the bottom of the tray across the whole surface. Again, looks like vacuum forming. 80's vintage. Made by 'Cesco/Photoquip'.
Another example of the evolution of everyday items, for the Petroski fans out there.
If I were embossing my own trays I am not sure what I would do to dimple them: blobs of RTV; glue strips of 12 ga round plastic to the bottom; duckboard/lath; glue buttons; a few layers of nylon screening?
I know: glue the bamboo from old print tongs to the bottom in a sort of random grid.
* * * *
Isn't it amazing what one can write about to postpone an unpleasant task?
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
bob - 16 Feb 2004 17:23 GMT "Nicholas O. Lindan" <nolindan@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:Db5Yb.6858 $W74.1134@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net:
[...]
> If I were embossing my own trays I am not sure what I would > do to dimple them: blobs of RTV; glue strips of 12 ga round > plastic to the bottom; duckboard/lath; glue buttons; a few layers > of nylon screening? [...]
For Rubbermaid trays, heat will allow you to modify their shape. Probably a household iron would do the trick. I would suggest starting on low heat and experimenting with a small container first. Protecting the surface of the iron with aluminum foil might not be a bad idea too.
For your stainless food service trays, a ball peen hammer would do the trick!
Bob
Nicholas O. Lindan - 16 Feb 2004 15:34 GMT 2 more tray alternatives I have used:
o Pyrex glass rectangular baking dishes. My mother finally gave up and compromised, splitting the cost of a set of hard rubber trays from Sears: Sears used to have a full-service photo department with more darkroom items than most photography stores carry today. The items were stamped "Tower". Montgomery wards had the same, though they didn't have a brand name.
o Food service trays, as used in steam tables.
Neither had a textured bottom. Visions of embossed food service trays can be seen in my imagining, though.
Look in the paper for announcement of closing down institutions. A good cheap source for tray substitutes, and all sorts of other dual use items. Hospitals, go to the 'Clinical Laboratory', Pathology, Microbiology and cafeteria sections. I had a friend who bought a vibration isolation table for an analytical balance from a belly up hospital. The top was a slab of 2ft x 3ft x 3" marble and he needed lots of help moving it. I think it will become his headstone before he finds another use for it. So, look out - white elephants abound.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Collin Brendemuehl - 16 Feb 2004 17:42 GMT > Anyone tell me if there's any reason why I couldn't use the "storage" type > of plastic boxes they sell a Kmart or Walmart for shoes and clothes to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Matt A. Keep your eyes open for garage sale and thrift shop opportunities. They often go really cheap used, given the boom of digital these days. You'd love my darkroom sink. It's the basin from a bassinet. Works perfectly because it already has a drain attached! And it's long and narrow to fit where big square sinks wouldn't have fit.
Collin
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