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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2004

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Ventilate or Scrub

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Dan Quinn - 15 Feb 2004 11:00 GMT
With all the talk of darkroom ventilation, air scrubbers came to mind.
I've been reminded of those who turn on the shower to clear the air.
At www.safelab.com click on, technical resources.                 Dan
PSsquare - 15 Feb 2004 15:29 GMT
> With all the talk of darkroom ventilation, air scrubbers came to mind.
> I've been reminded of those who turn on the shower to clear the air.
> At www.safelab.com click on, technical resources.                 Dan

What?  Scubbers are required where the absolute amount of pollutants become
significant in terms of the public health.  That generally means commercial
applications. I cannot imagine where any darkroom enthusiast would ever need
such a thing. Scrubbers are a nightmare to maintain to say nothing of the
expense.

This is Horse Feathers!

PSsquare
jjs - 15 Feb 2004 17:41 GMT

> What?  Scubbers are required where the absolute amount of pollutants become
> significant in terms of the public health.  That generally means commercial
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> This is Horse Feathers!

Or something like that. Yep. :) I see the perfect darkroom!  Scrub the
air, polarize and ground all articles, wear white paper suits, hoods,
mask, cotton gloves, booties... Yeah, sure.  

Chances are good that a small darkroom gets as much 'dust' from human skin
sluff, dander, and clothing than new airborne particles.

Spoting prints is good for the soul.
PSsquare - 15 Feb 2004 21:32 GMT
John aka jjs:

I think you miss the point, so let me be more specific.  There is a big
difference between dust/static control and scrubbers, and I cannot agree
with what seems a repudiation of dust and static as a danger. Dust/static
actions capture the bad guys and pitch them outside.  Scrubbers capture
chemical bad guys and neutralize them for safe disposal.

Elimination of dust and static is easy and bring immediate results in the
home darkroom. It is also cheap to control. Keep humidity up in winter to
reduce static.  Keep the darkroom under positive pressure and filter
incoming air with a cheap furnace filter.  Put an exhaust fan above the
chemical trays. Use tongs.   Tape the edges of ceiling panels to trap
fiberglass particles. There have been frequent instances on this newsgroup
and in my photo club where dust was a problem and the solutions discussed.

OTOH scrubbing chemicals is technically difficult and costly. Air scrubbers
have in common with good darkroom ventilation the capture of fumes, but
beyond that the similarity ends.   In large part, scrubbers benefit the
outside atmosphere only.  They need to capture a significant quantity to
compare with what is emitted from many common sources like industrial paint
booths.  They need a revenue stream to pay for the system. The quantities in
darkrooms are trivial to the outside air quality. The darkroom quantities
are like peeing in the ocean. Who could measure it?  So, the benefit inside
the darkroom is ZERO.

Regards,

PSsquare

> > What?  Scubbers are required where the absolute amount of pollutants become
> > significant in terms of the public health.  That generally means commercial
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Spoting prints is good for the soul.
jjs - 15 Feb 2004 22:24 GMT
> John aka jjs:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> chemical bad guys and neutralize them for safe disposal.
> [...]

Good article. I appreciate the correction.
otzi - 16 Feb 2004 05:56 GMT
> > John aka jjs:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Good article. I appreciate the correction.

What is a good filter for incoming air or what can one adapt for this
purpose? And what does one use to move the air with?
For dust, apart for all the forgoing, has any one tried one of those water
pot vacuum cleaners?  Apart for the noise would they work? Would need to be
going for a fair while to have any effect I would recon.
Gary Beasley - 16 Feb 2004 21:05 GMT
>What is a good filter for incoming air or what can one adapt for this
>purpose? And what does one use to move the air with?
>For dust, apart for all the forgoing, has any one tried one of those water
>pot vacuum cleaners?  Apart for the noise would they work? Would need to be
>going for a fair while to have any effect I would recon.

I have a hepa filter mounted in front of the air intake with a
standard fiberglass filter on top of it to capture the bigger dust and
extend the hepa filters life.
PSsquare - 17 Feb 2004 00:50 GMT
Otzi,

You asked as series of questions.

> What is a good filter for incoming air or what can one adapt for this
> purpose?

I am using an American Air Filter pleated "Dirt Demon" that has about 50%
collection efficiency at 2.3 microns. There are lot of suppliers out there.
The  package usually gives the collection  efficiency.  Collection increases
for larger particle sizes, so I am essentially getting most stuff about
arond 5 microns.  (There are 25.5 microns in one thousandth inch, so that
seems adequate.  A human hair around 100 to 150 microns, I thinkl.)

>And what does one use to move the air with?

I am using a rotary fan built into a light proof baffle.  Bought it from
Porters and built a box over the intake to hold a furnace filter. This puts
the room at positive pressure.  I have a smaller centrifugal fan build into
a box and set over the wet sink to exhaust fumes.  I pipe the exhaust thru 3
inch flex hose to the outside.  The centrifugal fan is bathroom exhaust fan
that I boxed into to make it sit on a shelf over the sink. It's capacity is
about 40% of the incoming fan, so it does not pull a negative pressure in
the darkroom.  So overall I filter the input for clean makeup air, capture
fumes over the sink and exhaust them.

> For dust, apart for all the forgoing, has any one tried one of those water
> pot vacuum cleaners?  Apart for the noise would they work? Would need to be
> going for a fair while to have any effect I would recon.

Don't have any experience with what you suggest, but I cannot imagine that a
vacuum cleaner would move enough air.  They are designed to create high
intake suction rather than exhaust quantities of clean air.   Anyhow, the
noise would be terrible.  At least, that it how it seems to me.

Good luck

PSsquare
otzi - 19 Feb 2004 15:35 GMT
> Otzi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> PSsquare

Thanks, thats given me a bit af a idea any way.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 19 Feb 2004 18:36 GMT
One can get a fine particle filter for
a forced-air furnace and/or whole
house air-conditioner.

I find it keeps dust from being blown into my darkroom.
If the darkroom is left fallow for a few months, when I
return there is no dust build-up.  Obviously the darkroom
is hooked to the house's HVAC.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.

SofaKing - 16 Feb 2004 20:11 GMT
Safelab?! Kind of a bizarre mix of proselytizing religion [sic ..."Asia has
long been a stronghold of Satan ..."], US patriotism [quotes from Dub-ya, in
reality his not-even-American-speech-writer David Frumm] and lab
knowledge...I guess that's what's known in the lab world as chemistry?

> With all the talk of darkroom ventilation, air scrubbers came to mind.
> I've been reminded of those who turn on the shower to clear the air.
> At www.safelab.com click on, technical resources.                 Dan
Dan Quinn - 17 Feb 2004 10:19 GMT
> Safelab?! Kind of a bizarre mix of...

 I did notice the RED-WHITE-AND-BLUE.
 IIRC that front page was dated 10-?-01.
 Post 9-11-01 is still out there.
 If you come across a better site with more DIY insight let us know. Dan
Jim Phelps - 19 Feb 2004 15:03 GMT
> With all the talk of darkroom ventilation, air scrubbers came to mind.
> I've been reminded of those who turn on the shower to clear the air.
> At www.safelab.com click on, technical resources.                 Dan

Just a thought,  In the type of system you envision with the scrubber, you
would also need to control humidity.  The size of this system just got
larger by a whole bunch...
Dan Quinn - 20 Feb 2004 00:22 GMT
> "Dan Quinn"wrote
> > With all the talk of darkroom ventilation, air scrubbers came to mind.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you would also need to control humidity.  The size of this system just
> got larger by a whole bunch...

 The fume hood unit described at Safelab has all the bells and
whistles. I suppose it may exhaust indoor or outdoor. Water flows down
and air moves up.
 Just off-hand I'd think a unit a foot square and three feet tall
might do for an eight hundred square foot darkroom. An air velocity of
one foot per/second is less than one mile/hour. That air velocity will
provide sixty cubic feet/minute of scrubbed and humidified air.
 A recirculating pump with filter plus a low rpm fan would be required.
A sump heater would help bring up the humidity. There would be some
maintanence required.                                               Dan
Jim Phelps - 20 Feb 2004 07:44 GMT
Dan,  If you vent inside, then humidity will be a problem.  For the most
part the air traversing the scrubber becomes saturated with water vapor.  It
would act as a humidifier unless some means are used to dry out the air.
Hence a dehumidifier.  Most dehumidifiers that are commercially available
use the refrigeration process to condense the water out of the air.  This
will make the expense of installation and operation increase significantly
(it'll drive the electrical bill through the roof).  Otherwise you must vent
to the outside.  And if you do vent outside, due to the airflow, this air
must be drawn from somewhere and you're back to providing filtered air into
the darkroom.  The scrubber liquor (I wonder if that's the correct use of
that word for this purpose, but who knows) still must be disposed of so you
are not reducing the chemical disposal and environmental issue

Now, I'm all for ecological darkroom use.  However, _I_ do not believe the
particulate or emissive vapors are of significant quantity from the home
darkroom enthusiast to warrant the expense of a scrubber.  A good cross
ventilation system with one or more blowers would provide the best - and
cheapest - method of maintaining a healthy and fume free darkroom.

For those looking for good, cheap and efficient filters for your darkroom
needs, don't overlook the pleated paper filters available in the Auto Parts
store.  Some diesel engines use good size ones, they're practically a HEPA
filter and cost about $10.00.  I used one in a home made negative drying
cabinet...
Dan Quinn - 20 Feb 2004 23:55 GMT
> Dan,  If you vent inside, then humidity will be a problem.  For the
> most part the air traversing the scrubber becomes saturated with
> water vapor. It would act as a humidifier unless some means are
> used to dry out the air.

 Well I'd have to play with it some. Saturation would likely never
occure due to my leaky, intermittently used, moisture absorbing darkroom.
A low, medium and high setting using a split phase fan motor may help.
Besides, I'm after a higher humidity.

> The scrubber liquor (I wonder if that's the correct use of
> that word for this purpose, but who knows) still must be disposed
> of so you are not reducing the chemical disposal and
> environmental issue.

 Liquor? water would be more like it. That goes down the drain. The
pump filter catches the particulate matter.

> Now, I'm all for ecological darkroom use.  However, I do not believe
> the particulate or emissive vapors are of significant quantity from
> the home darkroom enthusiast to warrant the expense of a scrubber.

 Think of it as a humidifier which will de-oder, de-fume and
de-particulate.

> For those looking for good, cheap and efficient filters for your
> darkroom needs, don't overlook the pleated paper filters available
> in the Auto Parts store.  Some diesel engines use good size ones,
> they're practically a HEPA filter and cost about $10.00.  I used
> one in a home made negative drying cabinet...

 Pre-filtering and activated charcoal might be a good idea. That would
be the delux version.
 
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