Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2004
Photo chemicals and Alzheimer's Dementia
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greyworld - 07 Feb 2004 00:30 GMT Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came across a 56y/o gentleman with a severe case of Alzheimer's Dementia--very tragic for one only 56y/o. In doing the history with his wife, she wondered if all those years in the darkroom, 30 some years, with B & W and color chemicals might have contributed to his illness. I've never heard of any link but I thought I would put this out to see if anyone has ever heard of any connection. Just interested. Dan
Gregory W Blank - 07 Feb 2004 02:37 GMT > Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interested. > Dan No we are all crazy to start with. Did he drink the chemistry? Or not have adequate ventilation? Maybe stick hands hands in the chemistry without washing them before meals,......or was he scratching you know what you know where, sometimes I have heard one gets a fairly good dose that way ya know.
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Norman Worth - 07 Feb 2004 04:26 GMT I doubt it, but I haven't looked hard either. I haven't seen any particular association between darkroom work and Alzheimer's in the scientific literature I get, and certainly elderly darkroom workers without Alzheimer's are common. The only chemical agent that has been associated with Alzheimer's disease that is commonly encountered in the darkroom is aluminum, which is found in hardening fixing baths. It's connection with Alzheimer's is controversial, and there are several more common sources in the environment - dust, cooking ware, food wrapping, cans, etc. In the body, aluminum is usually quickly converted to the oxide and excreted. Boranes and borohydrides are used in some color reversal developers. I don't know of any documented connection to Alzheimer's, but this sort of compound might cause (unspecified) trouble if it got across the blood-brain barrier. These compounds are quite exotic, however, and they are used in very low concentrations.
> Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interested. > Dan Richard Knoppow - 07 Feb 2004 09:24 GMT > Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interested. > Dan Alzheimer's is tragic. I doubt very much that there is any connection with photographic chemicals. I think you will have to do some extensive research on the statistics of the occurance of Alzheimer's among photographers vs: the general population. You will also have to find out exactly how the photographers worked. Not all work directly with chemistry. For instance, many professional color labs use machine processing where the exposure to any chemical is very slight. AFAIK, there are no definite pointers to a cause for Alzheimer's. Many past speculations have simply not held up under close examination. I have some interest in this desease having watched a good friend's mother waste away and eventually die of it. Its pretty difficult to explain about it to someone who has not had experience with an Alzheimer's victim. In some ways its even more horrifying than cancer.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Gregory W Blank - 07 Feb 2004 11:53 GMT
> Alzheimer's is tragic. I doubt very much that there is any > connection with photographic chemicals. I think you will [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > it to someone who has not had experience with an Alzheimer's > victim. In some ways its even more horrifying than cancer. Yes I can say that it is tragic, my grandmother got it late into life she died at 95, basically the person is gone towards the end but the body remains for many years. Lingering and sometimes wasting away.
I know a very vibrant artist lady of 65 that within 6 months nolonger was the same person. Sometimes it can work that quickly I believe. Seeing her,.... that made a big impression. I would never wish it upon anyone. Alzheimer's I think though is more difficult on the family, perhaps and cancer on the patient. My father battled cancer and diabetes for many years it is very painful to watch and I am sure to experience, even though they provide drugs to ease the cancer. These are lessons one must take to heart.
as always Gb.
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Richard Knoppow - 08 Feb 2004 04:35 GMT > > Alzheimer's is tragic. I doubt very much that there is any > > connection with photographic chemicals. I think you will [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > as always Gb. My observation is that the personality stays for quite a time. I always had the feeling that the victim was concious of something terrible happening that they could not understand. It must be enormously frightening. For many years Alzheimer's was attributed to long term alcholism. It turned out not to be but many of its victims turn to drinking to help with the fear. In the last fifteen years I have helped care for two cancer victims, one of whome died (the other will live forever I hope), an Alzheimer's victim, and an ALS victim. It does something to you to see people die slowly. If you think there is no trouble in the world, just stand still for half a minute, it will run right over you.
 Signature --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Gregory W Blank - 08 Feb 2004 13:46 GMT > My observation is that the personality stays for quite a > time. I always had the feeling that the victim was concious [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > turned out not to be but many of its victims turn to > drinking to help with the fear. I can attest to that Grandma, hated alcohol never touched it.
> In the last fifteen years I have helped care for two > cancer victims, one of whome died (the other will live > forever I hope), an Alzheimer's victim, and an ALS victim. > It does something to you to see people die slowly. If you > think there is no trouble in the world, just stand still for > half a minute, it will run right over you. What I say to that; is grab every chance you can at happiness that does not involve hurting someone else, life is too short to do otherwise and regrets last a long time and are worthless.
Take care Gb
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David Starr - 08 Feb 2004 14:55 GMT > My observation is that the personality stays for quite a >time. I always had the feeling that the victim was concious >of something terrible happening that they could not >understand. It must be enormously frightening. It's the most terrifying thing I can imagine: knowing your mind is going & there's nothing you can do about it.
>For many >years Alzheimer's was attributed to long term alcholism. It [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >think there is no trouble in the world, just stand still for >half a minute, it will run right over you. I've been through that as well, and it's the most draining experience I've ever had.
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Jorge Omar - 07 Feb 2004 19:16 GMT My mother was a victim of Alzheimer. Slow, painful death both for her and the family.
Jorge
"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:292Vb.14732 $F23.11415@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
I have some interest in this
> desease having watched a good friend's mother waste away and > eventually die of it. Its pretty difficult to explain about > it to someone who has not had experience with an Alzheimer's > victim. In some ways its even more horrifying than cancer. Robert Vervoordt - 09 Feb 2004 06:13 GMT >My mother was a victim of Alzheimer. >Slow, painful death both for her and the family. Same here. My father's bouts with Cancer, Heart Congestion and Emphysema were not as disturbing in comparison.
>Jorge > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> it to someone who has not had experience with an Alzheimer's >> victim. In some ways its even more horrifying than cancer. Robert Vervoordt, MFA
dr bob - 07 Feb 2004 12:09 GMT > Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interested. > Dan Don't know. Have had hands in contact with b&w process chemicals for 50 years now without that problem. However how does one know for sure? How many out of a sample space of how many has this happened to? This sort of unsubstantiated urban legend certainly does not help the plight of those of us attempting to preserve traditional photographic methods, does it? Truly, dr bob.
Gregory W Blank - 07 Feb 2004 13:46 GMT >This sort > of unsubstantiated urban legend certainly does not help the plight of those > of us attempting to preserve traditional photographic methods, does it? > Truly, dr bob. Ya gotta die from something,.....why worry , so take some precautions, like gloves and a fan, worrying is more detrimental than anything.
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Dennis O'Connor - 07 Feb 2004 14:33 GMT Yup, I second that Bob... I have been splashing in photo chemicals for over 50 years and it hasn't, uhh, hasn't, uhh, hasn't . . . something or other...
OK, couldn't resist that... Anyway, I have Alzheimer patients in my practice and not a one of them has ever been in a darkroom... So, as anecdotal evidence I strongly doubt a causal relationship between between photo chemicals and Alzheimers Disease... denny
> > Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > of us attempting to preserve traditional photographic methods, does it? > Truly, dr bob. PSsquare - 07 Feb 2004 14:40 GMT Since you are a health professional, I assume you are aware that there is also a genetic link to Alzheimer's that shows up typical in the 50's? A recent PBS program stated that it has a 50% probability of being inherited in children of those carrying the gene. So, did any prior instances show up in the patient's family?
On a different track, I spent about 37 years doing engineering problem solving. One clear learning was that a problem can have more than one cause, and never to assume that just one variable causes the problem. It can be a combinations of two or more causes or can be several independent causes. It would be possibly distracting to assume that Alzheimer's has a single cause.
Regards,
PSsquare
> Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interested. > Dan Ken Burns - 07 Feb 2004 16:22 GMT My wife's mother died in her early 60s after about a 10-yr bout with Alzheimers. She spent the last couple years under full-time medical supervision and care in medical care facility, and eventually died from pneumonia. At no time in her life was she ever exposed to photo chemicals.
KB
> Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interested. > Dan ? - 08 Feb 2004 11:46 GMT Ken,
I am sorry for your loss and I appreciate your post. Personally, I think the guy is a troll seeking to initiate another urban legend akin to those such as the hazards of dental fillings.
It is either he is a troll or that he/she is using a standard other than that which is commonly accepted to define "mental health professional".
Remember that 1995 New Yorker cartoon where two dogs are sitting in front of a computer? One dog is typing in his post and the other dog sez "The nice thing is that on the Internet, no one knows you are just a dog."
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> My wife's mother died in her early 60s after about a 10-yr bout with > Alzheimers. She spent the last couple years under full-time medical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > interested. > > Dan ? - 08 Feb 2004 11:40 GMT Every mental professional is well versed in statistics and how to research the literature. All know that a datapoint of one is exactly that, a single data point. Obviously those educated at the graduate level are far more facile at accessing the literature; but even the someone working as a social worker with a only an undergraduate degree is educated on locating authoritative sources of information.
How in the Hell can a "mental health professional" be so untrained, so uneducated as to not know how to access the literature or professional knowledge of his/her area? What in the world would make a "mental health professional" THINK a group populated by professional and amateur photographers would be fluent in the current medical literature related to dementia? Why would a "mental health professional" even think such a group is the best source for such information?
Personally, I think there is a good chance this is a troll seeking to start another urban legend like amalgam dental fillings lead to lupus.
I know this post is very hash, but if this guy is sincere and he is not trolling, he should go sue those who educated him for malpractice.
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> Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the > last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > interested. > Dan greyworld - 09 Feb 2004 23:49 GMT > Every mental professional is well versed in statistics and how to research > the literature. All know that a datapoint of one is exactly that, a single [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > interested. > > Dan Sorry this post created so much controversy and hostility! I am a mental health professional and I was taught to ask questions even if it leads nowhere or leads you down the wrong path. At least you learn something! I am aware of the literature and there is no definitive cause yet discovered for Alzheimer's dementia other than to suggest there is a heriditary factor. The client that I alluded to does not appear to have any famly members that have this illness. I cannot interview the client because of his severe disorganzation; therefore as with many in his situation, much of his history and environmental factors will always be a mystery. My post was merly an attempt to see if anyone else was aquainted with any connection with exposure with darkroom chemicals. It was an exploritory question! I was never attempting to create an urban ledgend. If even if I got 10 or 20 responses from individuals that stated darkroom workers they had known that contacted the disease it would only mean to me that this might be the start of some research. I try to follow the scientific method when I can. By the way most of the breakthroughs in mental health were by accident because of curious people. Dan.
brian - 10 Feb 2004 05:03 GMT > > Every mental professional is well versed in statistics and how to research > > the literature. All know that a datapoint of one is exactly that, a single [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > health were by accident because of curious people. > Dan. I can see where your coming form and where your headed, and I think the guy who replied, was throwing some kind of fit I read your original post and I didnt see anything in there to merit his reaction, maybe hes had his head in the developer too long, lol. Please continue to be curious, thats how most of the things we take for granted came to be, including photography.
Brian.....................
? - 10 Feb 2004 12:45 GMT If those who educated you did not fully explain to you how the scientific method provides an approach to your question, I certainly cannot hope to teach you that here. Here is an example of the absurdity that results from your approach:
Those who work in darkrooms die. This outcome seems to be unrelated to the number of years, frequency or duration of exposure or chemicals involved. It appears just stepping into a darkroom is enough to link darkroom use and death.
The data you seek to start the process of getting at your question is: Photographers who have worked in darkrooms for 50 years: how many of you suffer dementia? How many possess all of your faculties? Then, and only then, would you have data that would enable you to begin to correlate 50 years of darkroom exposure and mental state. This, of course, assumes you and your respondents have the same understanding of the term "dementia"; which is most unlikely unless you first spell out the definition you want the respondents to use.
Even these data cannot be collected via seeking self reports from this group. This is because those ex-darkroom workers suffering dementia are unlikely to be using the Internet, let alone participating in this group.
There are two reasons I deplore what you did. First and foremost, I am certain there are people on this list who have already met their responsibility of caring for a loved one who suffered one of the forms of dementia. To suggest on a whim that their hobby/profession may have contributed to the suffering of the person they loved is nothing short of reprehensible. There are no data to even whisper the suggestion that they may be guilty for the suffering of the person they cared for. And if you fail to comprehend that people DO make these connections, then your claim to being a mental health professional is most doubtful.
The other reason is that your post gives every indication that mental health research is little more than casting about in the wind for creating links between causation and outcome. Many of the statistical methods now used (autocorrelation, multiple regression, factor analysis, analysis of variance) were invented by those doing research in the behavioral sciences. What we think we know and what we hope to know is and will be a result of a disciplined approach to dissecting complex relationships among defined variables and outcomes.
I cannot conceive of an educated mental health professional being unaware of the implications of such behavior.
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> > Every mental professional is well versed in statistics and how to research > > the literature. All know that a datapoint of one is exactly that, a single [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > health were by accident because of curious people. > Dan. jjs - 10 Feb 2004 14:23 GMT > [...]
> I cannot conceive of an educated mental health professional being unaware of > the implications of such behavior. We don't know in this case what the poster really does. What is a Mental Health Professional? Is it someone with a masters in counseling? Someone who runs an Aroma Therapy shop? In neither case do I see any strident requisites for scientific understanding.
? - 10 Feb 2004 15:32 GMT I agree. I have not failed to notice that he/she has refused to identify his/her classification and education despite my two direct requests for such clarification.
All we know for sure (because this is what he told us) is that he has responsibilities that include intake interviews. This means he can be educated at any level from high school to Ph.D. It could mean he is classified as a social worker with only a 4 year degree and one year out of college; or it could mean he is an MD psychiatrist with a 15 year practice.
This leaves aside the fact that since "his" client is a darkroom worker, he or someone in his family could be reading this right now! How empathetic or professional is that?
Are you now more or less willing to see a psychotherapist for help with your depression/alcoholism/ fear of abandonment/ whatever it is that ails you.... knowing that your "mental health professional" may present your case for discussion on the Internet? And no, if it is done to you, you will not care that your name was not mentioned.
By presenting himself as a "metal health professional", he has made himself appear as an authoritative figure. As such, his comments may carry undue weight for those who may be prone to searching for a reason for a loved one's disease.
No, this message should never have been posted. It shows no empathy toward the family he describes, no concern for those darkroom workers who cared for loved ones with dementia, and least of all, it shows no understanding of how to systematically dissect a research question.
Hence, I had HOPED it was a troll searching to create a new urban legend. Sadly, the poster assures us he is sincere in his post.
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> > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > who runs an Aroma Therapy shop? In neither case do I see any strident > requisites for scientific understanding. jjs - 10 Feb 2004 17:05 GMT > [... snip good stuff ...]
> By presenting himself as a "metal health professional", he has made himself > appear as an authoritative figure. As such, his comments may carry undue > weight for those who may be prone to searching for a reason for a loved > one's disease. Yes, that is a deeply disturbing fact, and we will probably have that problem as long as people can post without a qualifying identity. For that reason, everyone should consider Usenet a nonauthoritative source, or as I consider it by default - a well of potential misinformation and posing.
I am glad you posted what you did. It is a daunting effort to confront the poseurs, but worthwhile.
? - 10 Feb 2004 17:23 GMT I am just astounded at how prophetic that damned cartoonist was. He/she should have been awarded the Pulitzer.
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aasainz-NOSPAM-@ix.netcom.com - 11 Feb 2004 05:28 GMT > I agree. I have not failed to notice that he/she has refused to identify > his/her classification and education despite my two direct requests for such [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > darkroom worker, he or someone in his family could be reading this right > now! How empathetic or professional is that? It could also be he is an attorney or some other kind of legal worker doing research for a lawsuit. An ambulance-chaser.
MFHult@nothydrologistnot.com - 10 Feb 2004 16:00 GMT >Every mental professional is well versed in statistics and how to research >the literature. All know that a datapoint of one is exactly that, a single >data point. How quaint. "Datapoint" was a highly innovative computer terminal product line of Computer Terminal Corporation (CTC) that reigned during the waning years of the punch card. The Datapoint 2200 was one of the first products to successfully use the 8008 -- Contractor Texas Instruments *almost* gave up on it. Rest is history ...
Do you recall that one data point is 'infinitely' more than none ?
>How in the Hell can a "mental health professional" be so untrained, so >uneducated as to not know how to access the literature or professional >knowledge of his/her area? This rant reminds us of the Dark Ages when the same Wisdom of the Ancients was recycled for half a millennia.
In the darkroom and in science, we learn by asking questions -- sometimes using formal hypotheses, sometimes not. But the notion that darkroom practice or science is advanced only by examining the literature is an outsider's notion of a creative process that in practice is far less constrained than most folks realize.
FWIW, in my opinion, the OP's question is less a "mental health" question than an epidemiological one. And IMO, the epidemiology and health effects (real and/or imagined) of darkroom practitioners is squarely on-topic in this newsgroup regardless of participants' professional background.
... Marc Marc_F_Hult.
Some Dude - 11 Feb 2004 15:52 GMT Highly doubtful.
>Having been an amateur photographer and darkroom enthusiast for the >last 30 years, I am also a mental health professional and I came [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >interested. >Dan Cheers, -sd http://www.zoom.sh
Mike King - 11 Feb 2004 17:50 GMT In research this type of "data" is called anecdotal (as in story telling) and is regarded as less that worthless. On the other hand if a hospital or insurance group noticed a correlation between hundreds of cases of Alzheimer's and exposure to darkroom chemicals that would be evidence. (Example would be Kodak's thousands of workers in their manufacturing plants and photofinishing labs over the last hundred (give or take) years.)
-- darkroommike
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> Highly doubtful. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -sd > http://www.zoom.sh Nicholas O. Lindan - 11 Feb 2004 19:39 GMT > In research this type of "data" is called anecdotal (as in story telling) > and is regarded as less that worthless. On the other hand if a hospital or > insurance group noticed a correlation between hundreds of cases of > Alzheimer's and exposure to darkroom chemicals that would be evidence. Another correlative group would be workers in hospital X-ray processing labs: standing all day over large tanks of photochemicals with nitrogen gas bursts carrying vapor and droplets of chemicals all over hell and back.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
dr bob - 12 Feb 2004 12:44 GMT > > In research this type of "data" is called anecdotal (as in story telling) > > and is regarded as less that worthless. On the other hand if a hospital or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > nitrogen gas bursts carrying vapor and droplets of chemicals all over > hell and back. As a former nuclear/chemical engineer, I can assure you that x-ray technicians will be much more affected by radiation than the photographic chemicals used in developing film.
Truly, dr bob.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 12 Feb 2004 13:49 GMT > "Nicholas O. Lindan" <nolindan@ix.netcom.com> wrote > > ... workers in hospital X-ray processing labs: > > standing all day over large tanks of photochemicals
> ... x-ray technicians will be much more affected > by radiation than the ... chemicals ... In the large labs I am familiar with the darkroom workers were separate from the techs taking the X-rays. Though in small clinics I imagine they may be the same person.
Dentists and dental techs would be another group exposed to x-rays and B&W chems, not to mention vapors from nitrous oxide, halitosis and really septic teeth.
It seems the worst one can get in a darkroom is a metol rash.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Patrick Gainer - 27 Feb 2004 20:05 GMT > > "Nicholas O. Lindan" <nolindan@ix.netcom.com> wrote > > > ... workers in hospital X-ray processing labs: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com > Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. The trouble with being more or less anonymous is that one can say things to another that would not be said in a direct encounter.
It seems to me that when someone asks a question, if you know the answer, or where to get it, you give the information. If not, there is no point in lecturing the questioner about the scientific method.
Patrick A. Gainer Retired Aeronautical Engineer Former principal oboist of Norfolk Symphony Orchestra Father of 6 Lost track of grand and great grand children.
Nicholas O. Lindan - 29 Feb 2004 17:06 GMT > > > > "Francis the Talking Mule" <feed@bag.com> wrote: > > > > > Much ado about nothing
> The trouble with being more or less anonymous is that one can say things > to another that would not be said in a direct encounter. I got fed-up with the flame wars on r.p.* (and fed-up with my tendency to occasionally jump in an 'contribute') and started putting flamers into a kill file. When I look at the addresses in the file they are _all_ anonymous: nobody@nowhere.com 123@456.org no@spam.net ...
Though the number of posts on r.p.d. drops from 40 to 11 when the kill filter goes into effect, I have not seen a single singe and the groups are very civilized (and rather boring, truth be told).
> It seems to me that when someone asks a question, if you know the > answer, or where to get it, you give the information. If not, there is > no point in lecturing the questioner about the scientific method. > > Patrick A. Gainer, Father Ret. I am not sure what prompted this, but as my name is in the credits, and it is this or fix the squeak in the car....
rec.photo.*, along with the rest of Usenet, is made up of _discussion_ groups.
Asking a question prompts a discussion of the question: was it a good question?; has it been asked before?; was it ever answered?; how would one find the answer?; "I don't know anything about this, but...."; the habits, parentage and likely future of posters to date; and a splinter discussion about best time to photograph birds at QuickSand Island.
Usually the only question answered correctly is about bird migrations.
If I am looking for a simple correct answer to a straightforward question then I ask Google or go to the library and read a book or buy a good reference book. And I now have a large collection of bad reference books.
In keeping with the above, I have a question:
"What reference books and online used bookstores for purchase of same do the folks here recommend?"
My modus operandi is to go to amazon for reviews and links and then query the local libraries. If I want to buy the book then I go to abebooks.com.
My prime references are:
Technical: The Kodak Darkroom and Photography Guides Kodak & Ilford data sheets and app. notes in a loose leaf binder Paper copies of useful usenet posts & web pages, also in a binder
How to: Adams' Camera, Negative, Print ... series Adams' "The making of 40 photographs" to show many of his best pics had little to do with the Zone System.
Inspiration: Edward Weston Bret Weston Walker Evans Cartier Bresson
Can't find it: Google
Want to chew the fat about it: rec.photo.*
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
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