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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Darkroom / February 2004

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Printing on the back of a print.

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Mark in Maine - 01 Feb 2004 00:34 GMT
I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
been using Ilford RC paper, but am having a hard time finding
something that will print on the back - if I use an inkjet (Epson
1280) - the ink does not seem to dry, and is very susecptible to
water.  I also have a laser printer, which is better, but I get a
ghost image, about an inch away from the original image.  Has anybody
done this before - any comments, suggestions, etc?

Mark
Tom Thackrey - 01 Feb 2004 00:54 GMT
> I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ghost image, about an inch away from the original image.  Has anybody
> done this before - any comments, suggestions, etc?

I don't have an answer, but I do have a warning. Laser printers are very hot
and some use fuser oil, RC paper is plastic, you could end up with an RC
print melted to the drum of your laser printer. It's a very expensive repair
and the print is usually ruined ;-)

Signature

Tom Thackrey
www.creative-light.com
tom (at) creative (dash) light (dot) com
do NOT send email to jamesbutler@willglen.net (it's reserved for spammers)

Gregory W Blank - 01 Feb 2004 04:51 GMT
> I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mark

Your are an  idiot..we all do stupid stuff like this reply...:-D Ha that aside
why not print the calendar part  underneath the picture on the same sheet
of paper, them laminate the whole page? Or try something like the press on calendars
at the "Photographers Edge".

What I want is software that generates calendars for a whole year,years into the future
and can print the calendar at high res,....say 600 dpi.
Signature

LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

David Nebenzahl - 01 Feb 2004 05:03 GMT
On 1/31/2004 4:34 PM Mark in Maine spake thus:

> I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ghost image, about an inch away from the original image.  Has anybody
> done this before - any comments, suggestions, etc?

First of all, sorry, I haven't done this myself.

But I'm curious why you're getting a ghost image with your laser printer. Is
this perhaps just your printer? I've printed paper about the thickness of RC
paper in a laser printer before without this problem, though nothing with a
surface like RC.

How about doing a test by taking a few sheets of RC to a copy shop and seeing
if they'll run them through their copier (basically the same process as a
laser printer)? As long as you can convince them the sheets won't ruin their
equipment, they should do it. (Keep in mind that laser printers and copiers
are fine with plastic sheets, like transparency film or laminating sheets.)

Signature

It's stupid, moronic and too fcuking obvious, as obvious as counting your
fingers, so TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW or just shut the fcuk up.

- "jjs" in extremis on rec.photo.darkroom

Ken Hart - 01 Feb 2004 18:29 GMT
> On 1/31/2004 4:34 PM Mark in Maine spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> paper in a laser printer before without this problem, though nothing with a
> surface like RC.

The ghost image is _probably_ because the fusing roller is not completely
fusing the toner to the paper. The photo paper is thicker than regular
(common copier) paper and the roller does not provide sufficient heat to
completely fuse. Or the surface of the paper is not accepting all of the
toner. Some of the toner is staying on the fusing roller and being fused on
the next revolution. (the diameter of the roller is equal to the distance
between the two images divided by pi?)
Do you have the same problem if you use heavy card stock?

> How about doing a test by taking a few sheets of RC to a copy shop and seeing
> if they'll run them through their copier (basically the same process as a
> laser printer)? As long as you can convince them the sheets won't ruin their
> equipment, they should do it. (Keep in mind that laser printers and copiers
> are fine with plastic sheets, like transparency film or laminating sheets.)

The output of a copier uses heat, and could damage the photo, and possibly
the fusing roller. A commercial copier will probably have a hotter roller
than a small home office type copier.

I have tried using my copier (a small Canon, about the size of a briefcase)
to put a copyright message on the back of color photos (on Kodak Endura
paper). It works, but... (a) set the copier exposure light to limit the
amount of toner, (b) the photos will come out curled and need to go under
some weight for some time, (c) the one-of-a-kind photo is the one that will
jam/scratch/melt!

The best thing I've found for writing on photos is a waterproof marker, such
as a Sharpie brand; but I don't think you want to free-hand write the
calendar pages on each photo!

Ken Hart
Jean-David Beyer - 01 Feb 2004 12:43 GMT
> I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mark

There are felt-tip pens with rather fine points out there that write
perfectly well on photographic negatives and on the backs of RC prints.
They are said to be archival, and perhaps they are. You just have to
find the right ink.

This does not directly solve your problem because you surely do not wish
to draw calanders on the back of your prints with a felt tip pen. So if
you can find (ask Epson perhaps?) an ink for a printer that uses a
composition enough like that in those felt tip pens, they dry quite fast
(not instantaneously).

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Frank Calidonna - 01 Feb 2004 13:09 GMT
> > I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> > back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> > Mark

Mark,

Dick Blick Art Supply, dickblick.com ,  sells a very nice blank calendar. I
have used it before. It is made to either paint or draw a picture every
month, but it easily fits a horizontal or vertical 5x7" print on the pages.
As a bonus you don't have to do the binding as it is already put together.
They used to cost about $4.00 each.

  Frank    Rome, NY
Nicholas O. Lindan - 01 Feb 2004 13:16 GMT
Mark in Maine wrote:

> RC prints ... print on the back - if I use an inkjet (Epson
> 1280) - the ink does not seem to dry ...

I doubt you can get conventional ink jet to stick
to the back of RC paper.

Ink jet ink is designed so that it does not dry.
If it dried then the ink nozzles would clog up.  
The ink works by penetrating the paper and wicking
into the fibers. The back of RC paper is water-proof
and the ink can not penetrate to the paper beneath.

There are industrial continuos stream ink jet printers
that do use an evaporating marking ink for printing date codes
on milk jugs and soup cans.

The easiest solution may be to use ink-jet paper and
print the photo on one side and the calendar on the
other.  

There are (were) companies that sold calendar 'kits' for
ink-jet and color laser.  The years calendar was pre-printed
on the back and the paper was punched for and came with
a spiral binder.

You might try using fiber base photographic paper.
I have never tried running photo paper through a
printer, though.  The lack of sizing in
the paper may cause the ink to bloom with time
- try it to find out.

--
Nick Lindan
Jean-David Beyer - 01 Feb 2004 13:24 GMT
Nicholas O. Lindan wrote (in part):

> You might try using fiber base photographic paper. I have never tried
> running photo paper through a printer, though.  The lack of sizing in
>  the paper may cause the ink to bloom with time - try it to find out.

I thought photo paper had a lot of sizing on (in) it. I am not talking
about hand made platinum style paper. Of course, the gelatine layer(s)
are on top of the sizing, but perhaps the gelatin acts as a sizing for
subsequent ink.

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Nicholas O. Lindan - 01 Feb 2004 13:49 GMT
> Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
>
>  > The lack of sizing in [photographic] paper...

> I thought photo paper had a lot of sizing on (in) it.

Mea culpa.  You are right, it is sized.  

DW fibber paper put me in mind of rag mounting board.

Obviously time to start the coffee maker....

--
Nick Lindan
Dale Strouse - 01 Feb 2004 17:50 GMT
> > I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> > back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> > Mark

Why not just print out your calendar pages on a separate sheet of laser
paper, and then with spray glue, glue this to the back of the RC print?
THen you can trim the edges to cut off any misaligned overhang. I do
this all the time to make photo cards.
Gary Beasley - 01 Feb 2004 16:16 GMT
>I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
>back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Mark

If it all has to be on photo paper you might try something like 11x14
creased and folded to 11x7 with the image on one side and the calendar
grid on the other. Folded sheets will bind as well as single sheets.
If flatness is a problem you might want to use adhesive of some kind
inside the folded sheet. FWIW Epson makes a double sided paper that
you could use for better effect.
Patrick Gainer - 01 Feb 2004 19:24 GMT
> >I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> >back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> inside the folded sheet. FWIW Epson makes a double sided paper that
> you could use for better effect.
An "old fashioned" dot matrix printer will probably work. They can still
be had. Epson LQ series and Panasonic equivalents do a pretty good job
on text, charts, etc. and will work from any word processing program.
David Nebenzahl - 01 Feb 2004 20:51 GMT
On 2/1/2004 11:24 AM Patrick Gainer spake thus:

>> >I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
>> >back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> be had. Epson LQ series and Panasonic equivalents do a pretty good job
> on text, charts, etc. and will work from any word processing program.

Sorry, no. I'm usually an advocate of extremely low-tech solutions, but this
one will create "graphics" that look like the invoice you get from your auto
mechanic.

Signature

It's stupid, moronic and too fcuking obvious, as obvious as counting your
fingers, so TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW or just shut the fcuk up.

- "jjs" in extremis on rec.photo.darkroom

Patrick Gainer - 02 Feb 2004 17:16 GMT
> On 2/1/2004 11:24 AM Patrick Gainer spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> - "jjs" in extremis on rec.photo.darkroom
Not the one I had. On such things as text and charts. it did very well,
but very slowly. This was a 24 pin LQ 1070.
Morton Klotz - 01 Feb 2004 21:05 GMT
>>I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
>>back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>inside the folded sheet. FWIW Epson makes a double sided paper that
>you could use for better effect.

I was going to suggest the same thing. Epson calls it Double Sided
Matte Paper. I have used it in an Epson 750 printer and it works well.
JRF - 02 Feb 2004 05:37 GMT
Canon's matte paper would probably print well on the back side, but you'll
have to decide for yourself if you like your images on matte paper.  My own
opinion is that scenics don't fare well on a matte finish, portaits do
better, but we all have make that assessment individually.

Bob in Las Vegas

> >>I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> >>back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I was going to suggest the same thing. Epson calls it Double Sided
> Matte Paper. I have used it in an Epson 750 printer and it works well.
David Nebenzahl - 01 Feb 2004 20:57 GMT
On 1/31/2004 4:34 PM Mark in Maine spake thus:

> I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ghost image, about an inch away from the original image.  Has anybody
> done this before - any comments, suggestions, etc?

Here's an idea: how about using an Alps printer? They're "out of print" but
still available on eBay. Anyone had experience with these? I think they'll
print on practically anything.

Signature

It's stupid, moronic and too fcuking obvious, as obvious as counting your
fingers, so TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW or just shut the fcuk up.

- "jjs" in extremis on rec.photo.darkroom

Gregory W Blank - 02 Feb 2004 00:29 GMT
>Here's an idea: how about using an Alps printer? They're "out of print" but
> still available on eBay. Anyone had experience with these? I think they'll
> print on practically anything.

Actually I have; Omega Satter at one point considered marketing them for
Alps. Their people came in and even demo'd the units to the president,
myself and another CS rep. They really had some cool features like
they could print "gold foil" using a special ribbon. They used some kind of
wax cartridges which each contained a seperate color. This was pre Epson
micro Piezo 6 ink printers, the prints looked like photos and were supposedly fade resistant
for 100 years? B&H carried them for a while but the Alps
people didn't like the arrangement because the printers needed alot
of customer service support,..... for some users. They were complex beyond the
abilities of the average sales person.
Signature

LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

Mike King - 05 Feb 2004 10:32 GMT
Laser printing not a good choice the heat from the drum can damage RC
papers.

My Epson C80 uses a different type of ink, pigment rather than dye based, if
I let the prints dry overnight the ink will usually stay put on the back of
RC prints.

Or use FB paper instead of RC.

Or make digital prints on a double-sided paper rather than making prints in
the darkroom.

Or mount the prints on preprinted calendars.

Or mount the prints back to back with calendar pages that could also be
printed in the darkroom and take the stack to Kinko's for binding.

--
darkroommike

----------
> I want to make a calender, by printing the calender grid thing on the
> back of some RC prints, then spiral binding them together.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mark
 
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