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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / July 2008

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Ok, you all win - I give up.

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clandestin_écureuil - 10 Jul 2008 09:43 GMT
They say that where there's smoke, there is fire, though often they are
wrong. However when you can see nothing else but smoke it would seem to be
imprudent to suggest that there might not be a fire.

I began responding to various people one by one, then after a break, read
through many more posts. It is becoming evident that this man is a little
more than just a person with some social difficulties who has managed to
antagonise some people. The antagonism seems to be universal and unanimous.

I will keep my own counsel with regard to him, I am sorry for suggesting
that others listen to me.

I can see after looking at a number of the posts and web sites that people
have provided links for that he is a very bitter and petty man, though I
doubt that he would be in any way dangerous other than in his own imagination.

I still find his situation to be sad - he must be a lonely man. Perhaps in
real life he isn't so abrasive and offensive. I hope so.

Secret Squirrel - lesson learned.

Signature

Ingrid Rose

clandestin.ecureuil(insert missing symbol here)gmail.com

Mark Thomas - 10 Jul 2008 11:55 GMT
> They say that where there's smoke, there is fire, though often they are
> wrong. However when you can see nothing else but smoke it would seem to
> be imprudent to suggest that there might not be a fire.
I must admit even *I* was a little surprised by the volume of the
conflagration!

> I began responding to various people one by one, then after a break,
> read through many more posts. It is becoming evident that this man is a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I will keep my own counsel with regard to him, I am sorry for suggesting
> that others listen to me.

Heavens, do not apologise for offering some caution and calm!  I greatly
appreciated your comments, and I admit that I sometimes overdo it.

But as one of those who has been on the receiving end of Douglas:
- insulting and abusing my family and me
- threatening violence
- alleging, completely falsely, that I had stolen items from his market
stall (among numerous things)
.. I don't like to see him trying *any* of his multitude of tricks on
others.  Ignoring would be good, but it doesn't help new folk.

> I can see after looking at a number of the posts and web sites that
> people have provided links for that he is a very bitter and petty man,
> though I doubt that he would be in any way dangerous other than in his
> own imagination.

And again, you have summarised Douglas very astutely.  (O:

> I still find his situation to be sad - he must be a lonely man. Perhaps
> in real life he isn't so abrasive and offensive. I hope so.

(Puts psychologist hat on..) I suspect it has resulted from him
discovering the internet and in its infancy, he got away with pretending
many things under his various identities.  It made him feel good, he
could be what he always wanted to be or what he truly thought he was...

But he gradually pushed the limits too far and things got truly nasty
when he sang the praises of his own business under a nom-de-plume, while
trying to *sell* that very business.  Foolishly he also posted elsewhere
using the same fake name (Graham Hunt) but he signed it as 'Douglas'...
woops.  Then I and others began to look more carefully, and found the
enormous web of identities and deceit he had created.  A normal
person/troll might have stopped, but for Doug this was a red rag to a
bull, and he basically went ballistic at me and others, in ways that you
wouldn't believe.  (Or maybe you would,, now that you've seen some of
the evidence!)

Now, it seems anyone who criticises his work is asking for trouble.  It
is indeed sad for those new to the group, and Douglas.  I also suspect
that he is nowhere near this bad in real life, and like most bullies,
would crumble if challenged in person.  But he has created this internet
persona, and has nowhere to go with it...

> Secret Squirrel - lesson learned.

Don't be disheartened!  That was just *one* lousy thread, and I accept
full responsibility for causing the pain and suffering - I humbly
apologise.  Let's drop it and move on.  As soon as you see the 'Douglas'
word, don't look at the post!

So where's that flash question? - find out how nice most of us can be!
Also, don't be afraid to post what you may regard as 'unworthy' images.
 The only folk who get into trouble for that are those who pretend to
be "profeshunal's" with years of experience and get all precious and
upset when one of their precious and perfect images is criticised.  I
have none of those sort of images!  Sadly I'm no multiple flash expert
either, but that hasn't stopped me trying to help folks before...  (O:

You only have to look at some of the crap I post (just ask Doug or Rita
how bad it is!) and see the kind responses I get, to know that there are
plenty of kind and helpful folk here who don't bite.  Most of us really
are here to learn and share.  Just ignore the bit of usenet that is
unpleasant, and contribute to the good side.

And if I can help, just tell me what sort of demo image you want (eg bad
flash fill, poor composition, whatever) and I'll happily post one of
mine - I have a zillion!

Stick around and help rebuild the group..
Rita Berkowitz - 10 Jul 2008 11:58 GMT
I'll take a moment to answer this post in a serious note in the likelihood
should you not be a sockpuppet of one of the many people taunting of D-Mac.

> They say that where there's smoke, there is fire, though often they
> are wrong. However when you can see nothing else but smoke it would
> seem to be imprudent to suggest that there might not be a fire.

And if this is the case than you have to criticize the very same people that
continually throw more fuel on the fire to taunt him.

> I began responding to various people one by one, then after a break,
> read through many more posts. It is becoming evident that this man is
> a little more than just a person with some social difficulties who
> has managed to antagonise some people. The antagonism seems to be
> universal and unanimous.

So, if this is the case than this casts the people in a poor light that live
to continually taunt D-Mac for sport and enjoyment.  There are two sides to
the story, but it seems the mob mentality rules here.

> I will keep my own counsel with regard to him, I am sorry for
> suggesting that others listen to me.

Again, if you are genuine and not a sockpuppet, you are wasting your time as
this effort is wasted on these people.

> I can see after looking at a number of the posts and web sites that
> people have provided links for that he is a very bitter and petty
> man, though I doubt that he would be in any way dangerous other than
> in his own imagination.

Taking sides, are we?  If so, you're no better than the people that have
been taunting and egging D-Mac on for all these years.  It's so simple for
these people to break the cycle of stupidity, they just don't want to.  Out
of all these people in aus.photo I find Troy to be the only sensible one by
not participating or using restraint when the mob goes out on a lynching.

> I still find his situation to be sad - he must be a lonely man.
> Perhaps in real life he isn't so abrasive and offensive. I hope so.

Yes, the situation is very sad.  I suspect the band of merry men that
perpetuate this stupidity are far worse off than what your psychoanalysis of
D-Mac portrays.

Rita
Signature

Stamping out Internet stupidity one idiot at a time.  Never empower the
idiot, embrace it and stimulate it.  For more details go to the Usenet
Stimulus Project page.

http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Helen - 10 Jul 2008 12:08 GMT
> I'll take a moment to answer this post in a serious note in the likelihood
> should you not be a sockpuppet of one of the many people taunting of D-Mac.
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Why cross-post this here?  If the author wanted it here he/she would
have done so in the first place.
It's clear the motives are not to benefit the group but to cause wars.
Rita Berkowitz - 10 Jul 2008 12:29 GMT
> Why cross-post this here?  If the author wanted it here he/she would
> have done so in the first place.
> It's clear the motives are not to benefit the group but to cause wars.

My motives are to see that all the participants of this stupidity get a fair
shake in the deal and that the wars stop.   Again, it's too easy for the
wars to stop should these people desire them to cease.  Mark is the worst
instigator out of the bunch as he writes pages of bullshit about D-Mac in an
effort to bring him back when it's clear D-Mac is trying to ignore him.

Now stop the nonsense "Helen" and go out and shoot some images with the 40D
noise box and plasticize them in Photoshop.

Rita
Signature

Stamping out Internet stupidity one idiot at a time.  Never empower the
idiot, embrace it and stimulate it.  For more details go to the Usenet
Stimulus Project page.

http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Ray Fischer - 11 Jul 2008 04:14 GMT
>> Why cross-post this here?  If the author wanted it here he/she would
>> have done so in the first place.
>> It's clear the motives are not to benefit the group but to cause wars.
>
>My motives are to see that all the participants of this stupidity get a fair
>shake in the deal and that the wars stop.

You are a liar.

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Ray Fischer        
rfischer@sonic.net

Atheist Chaplain - 11 Jul 2008 04:36 GMT
>>> Why cross-post this here?  If the author wanted it here he/she would
>>> have done so in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> You are a liar.

I'm sensing a common thread in regards to Rita here :-)

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"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

John McWilliams - 11 Jul 2008 06:09 GMT
>>>> Why cross-post this here?  If the author wanted it here he/she would
>>>> have done so in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I'm sensing a common thread in regards to Rita here :-)

F-U set. Please keep the garbage out of aus.photo and rpe.
Annika1980 - 11 Jul 2008 20:16 GMT
> F-U set. Please keep the garbage out of aus.photo and rpe

FU, too!
Mark Thomas - 10 Jul 2008 12:14 GMT
Rita Berkowitz wrote a deeply moving and thoughtful piece.

But bear in mind that is the very same Rita who is quoted here, going
tag team with Douglas:
http://groups.google.com.au/group/aus.photo/msg/061f3ccff0946af1

Rita, of course, *abhors* cowardly attacks on family members...

So, readers, make up your own mind.

(And once again, I have had to remove Rita's added follow ups, as she
seeks attention outside this group.)
Rita Berkowitz - 10 Jul 2008 12:28 GMT
> Rita Berkowitz wrote a deeply moving and thoughtful piece.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> So, readers, make up your own mind.

I abhor any form of child abuse!  Sorry, we don't turn a blind eye in the
States when irresponsibly parents endanger their children.  Maybe things are
different "Down Under" but we call it like we see it.

Oh, and before I forget I think you owe D-Mac an apology for attacking his
wife and children before we continue this discussion any further.

Please archive this post.

Rita
Signature

Stamping out Internet stupidity one idiot at a time.  Never empower the
idiot, embrace it and stimulate it.  For more details go to the Usenet
Stimulus Project page.

http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Mark Thomas - 10 Jul 2008 12:51 GMT
>> Rita Berkowitz wrote a deeply moving and thoughtful piece.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Oh, and before I forget I think you owe D-Mac an apology for attacking
> his wife and children before we continue this discussion any further.

Rita, simply post a link to where I attacked Douglas' wife and children.
   If you can do that one simple thing, I will indeed humbly apologise.
 Or else you have to admit to being a liar.  (Rita has posted this
claim numerous times in the past, yet could never post a reference.)

It's one or the other.  Link or liar?  Crunch time.

Or perhaps now is the time to tell Secret Squirrel that you're just
jokin', and are just posting all of this to 'stimulate the idiots'...

(O:

F-u re-set. Again.
Rita Berkowitz - 10 Jul 2008 13:02 GMT
> Rita, simply post a link to where I attacked Douglas' wife and
>    children. If you can do that one simple thing, I will indeed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It's one or the other.  Link or liar?  Crunch time.

Apologies should be from the heart and unconditional so this is on you and I
will no longer play.  I will, though, ask for the 157th time?

"Oh, and before I forget I think you owe D-Mac an apology for attacking his
wife and children before we continue this discussion any further."

This will be the only response you will get from me till you become a man
and step up to the plate and apologize to D-Mac.

Rita
Signature

Stamping out Internet stupidity one idiot at a time.  Never empower the
idiot, embrace it and stimulate it.  For more details go to the Usenet
Stimulus Project page.

http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Mark Thomas - 10 Jul 2008 13:41 GMT
>> Rita, simply post a link to where I attacked Douglas' wife and
>>    children. If you can do that one simple thing, I will indeed
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Rita

So 'she won't play'.  No link.  (And you will note I gave NO conditions
for the apology.)

So Rita (aka Digital Soft Paw on flickr) is indeed a liar.  The type who
stoops low in any attempt to discredit.

I wear her (and Doug's) dislike with pride.  (O:

mt

f-u reset.  Again.
Rita Berkowitz - 10 Jul 2008 13:55 GMT
> So 'she won't play'.  No link.  (And you will note I gave NO
> conditions for the apology.)
>
> So Rita (aka Digital Soft Paw on flickr) is indeed a liar.  The type
> who stoops low in any attempt to discredit.

<YAWN>

Dance, Baby, Dance!

Apologies should be from the heart and unconditional so this is on you and I
will no longer play.  I will, though, ask for the 157th time?

"Oh, and before I forget I think you owe D-Mac an apology for attacking his
wife and children before we continue this discussion any further."

This will be the only response you will get from me till you become a man
and step up to the plate and apologize to D-Mac.

Please archive? Thank you ufor your support.

Rita
Signature

Stamping out Internet stupidity one idiot at a time.  Never empower the
idiot, embrace it and stimulate it.  For more details go to the Usenet
Stimulus Project page.

http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Atheist Chaplain - 10 Jul 2008 14:29 GMT
>> So 'she won't play'.  No link.  (And you will note I gave NO
>> conditions for the apology.)
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Rita

We all know your a liar and a troll Rita, but if you must keep proving this
in the other groups why not start your own sh.t fight there instead of
hijacking other threads in a childish attempt to discredit Mark and anyone
else who see's through your bullshit and lies.
You either have a link to prove that Mark did actually say those things or
your just as bad as D-Mac and deserving of the same ridicule and scorn as he
get's
Time to stop dancing around the question, time to stop being a serial
masturbator as the only idiot being stimulated here is you, and its time to
put up or f.ck off.

Signature

God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

Cal I Fornicate - 11 Jul 2008 09:46 GMT
>> So 'she won't play'.  No link.  (And you will note I gave NO
>> conditions for the apology.)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> This will be the only response you will get from me till you become a man
> and step up to the plate and apologize to D-Mac.

Isn't stepping up to the plate the reason why so many American women are
so fat?

Someone should hide the plate.

Cal
Rita Berkowitz - 11 Jul 2008 13:14 GMT
> Isn't stepping up to the plate the reason why so many American women
> are so fat?

Sorry to break it to you, Son, as a whole, this is the Western world's
problem; even the Aussies have a problem of blimping out.

> Someone should hide the plate.

Agreed!

Rita
Signature

Stamping out Internet stupidity one idiot at a time.  Never empower the
idiot, embrace it and stimulate it.  For more details go to the Usenet
Stimulus Project page.

http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Atheist Chaplain - 11 Jul 2008 13:24 GMT
>> Isn't stepping up to the plate the reason why so many American women
>> are so fat?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Rita

no argument there, I know I'm overweight but my blood pressure is good and
so is my cholesterol, I just need to get off my arse and do some exercise
:-)

Signature

God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

Rita Berkowitz - 11 Jul 2008 14:05 GMT
> no argument there, I know I'm overweight but my blood pressure is
> good and so is my cholesterol, I just need to get off my arse and do
> some exercise :-)

See, this is a perfect excuse for you to buy that long lens you were always
dreaming about and go out on morning hikes.  I'm sure you guys have some
beautiful wooded areas Down Under that are spectacular in the morning?

Rita
Signature

Stamping out Internet stupidity one idiot at a time.  Never empower the
idiot, embrace it and stimulate it.  For more details go to the Usenet
Stimulus Project page.

http://ritaberk.myhosting247.com

Atheist Chaplain - 12 Jul 2008 13:35 GMT
>> no argument there, I know I'm overweight but my blood pressure is
>> good and so is my cholesterol, I just need to get off my arse and do
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Rita

currently the mornings here are -6 C so not conducive to anyone let alone
anyone with a camera :-)
I was up at 5AM today so I could take my little girl down to Sydney so she
could fly out to Vietnam for 3 weeks, the frost was so thick I had to
de-frost the car doors before I could even open them :-)
so forgive me if I say "Bugger going for a morning walk at the moment"

Signature

God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

Helen - 12 Jul 2008 15:06 GMT
> >> no argument there, I know I'm overweight but my blood pressure is
> >> good and so is my cholesterol, I just need to get off my arse and do
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> --
> God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
Helen
Annika1980 - 12 Jul 2008 16:09 GMT
> I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
> Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.

-6C?  That's just a warm spring day in Canada.
Robert Coe - 12 Jul 2008 16:44 GMT
: > I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
: > Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
:
: -6C?  That's just a warm spring day in Canada.

Oh, Jeez. Another round of "My a.s is colder than your a.s." Pretty soon Floyd
Davidson will weigh in from the North Pole and top us all (in 40 or 50 highly
technical posts). When are yuo guys going to learn to leave well enough alone?

Bob
Helen - 12 Jul 2008 20:01 GMT
> : > I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
> : > Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Bob

You're clearly making more out of this than I intended.  I merely
stated that I didn't know Australia could get that cold.  I always
thought it was quite warm there, even in winter.
As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
Jeff R. - 13 Jul 2008 00:56 GMT
>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.

You North Americans are funny people.

Deconstruct that last phrase of yours: "I could care less"
That means there is, presumably, something about which you care less.  So
the issue at hand has, at least, marginal interest to you.

Shouldn't you say, (as we Aussies do): "I couldn't care less" ?
Isn't that a better way of being suitably dismissive?

This is one of those linguistic anomalies that irritate my poor sensitive
soul.

I used to be irritated by:
"The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want", and
"You can't have your cake and eat it too"
until punctuation and explanation made these sensible, but "I could care
less" eludes me.

Why do Yanks (and apparently Canadians) use that phrase?

--
Jeff R.
MI - 13 Jul 2008 03:25 GMT
On 7/12/08 4:56 PM, in article
487944c0$0$30461$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au, "Jeff R."
<contact.me@this.ng> wrote:

>>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> --
> Jeff R.

Count me out on that one. (There's another one for you.) I can't stand the
phrase either. I don't use I could care less.

Signature

Martha T2 Canada
1500mg. Metformin, 4mg. Avandia

dj_nme - 13 Jul 2008 06:14 GMT
<snip>
> until punctuation and explanation made these sensible, but "I could care
> less" eludes me.
>
> Why do Yanks (and apparently Canadians) use that phrase?

Considering that without the "n't" at the end of the "could" (or "not"
between the words "could" and "care"), it makes no sense.
"I couldn't care less" or "I could not care less" would actually make
sense.
Robert Coe - 13 Jul 2008 06:17 GMT
: >  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
:
: Why do Yanks (and apparently Canadians) use that phrase?

A good question; I've wondered myself. We used to say "I couldn't care less";
the gramatically anomalous form is, I guess, about twenty years old. It's
supposed to be sardonic: "[as if] I could care less". I presume that like most
linguistic affectations in modern American society, it came from a TV program,
but I couldn't tell you which one. (I watch lots of news and some sports, but
very little "entertainment" TV.)

We used to pride ourselves on our variety of English being just as good, and
just as authentic, as those of the Aussies and the Brits. Screw-ups like the
one you cite are embarrassing.

Bob
Annika1980 - 13 Jul 2008 14:28 GMT
> I used to be irritated by:
> "The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want", and
> "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too?

http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/99721022
Radical Radish - 13 Jul 2008 16:19 GMT
>> I used to be irritated by:
>> "The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want", and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/99721022

What use is a cake if you can't eat it?

Rad
John McWilliams - 13 Jul 2008 16:56 GMT
>>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Why do Yanks (and apparently Canadians) use that phrase?

Language evolves. Some feel it's an inexorable deterioration, and
certainly usenet is a part of the latter. It gives us, after all, the
nearly ubiquitous mispelling of the possessive "its" by including an
apostrophe as if it were a contraction for "it is". i wont even tch
cmprssd spling and l/c "sentences" w/ no punct

I might say "I could care less" and it'd be understood in context, but I
don't necessarily write it that way, and I live in California now.

I am sure there are a number of language anomalies that don't make sense
if taken literally.

Any you can think of in Oz?

Signature

john mcwilliams

user@domain.invalid - 13 Jul 2008 17:14 GMT
>> You North Americans are funny people.
>>
>> Deconstruct that last phrase of yours: "I could care less"

Language changes.  For example, the old dictum "don't use
a double negative, because two negatives make a positive" certainly
applies in logic. If you design an IC without knowing this, it won't work.

But language is different. Today in English, a double negative frequently
means a positive. "I couldn't care less" means that you could, possibly
care more than you do, maybe you will, maybe you won't, but you really don't
care and probably nobody is going to change your mind. It's a double
negative.

But it was not always so in earlier English. A thousand years ago,
double negatives were standard ways of simply saying "not". And
today similar things are coming into use again. This is not
anything unusual, nor can it be stopped, nor should that be tried.

Doug McDonald
Robert Coe - 13 Jul 2008 17:32 GMT
: >> You North Americans are funny people.
: >>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
: today similar things are coming into use again. This is not
: anything unusual, nor can it be stopped, nor should that be tried.

How sure are you about that, Doug? A thousand years is a very long time in the
history of English. What was spoken 1000 years ago was Old English (the
language of "Beowulf", not that of William Shakespeare or even of Geoffrey
Chaucer). It was a Germanic language that bore very little resemblance to
today's English or to any other language spoken today. Maybe you know enough
Old English to say authoritatively that it used double negatives. But if you
do, you're in a very small minority of the participants in this newsgroup.

Bob
Jeff R. - 14 Jul 2008 03:31 GMT
> I am sure there are a number of language anomalies that don't make sense
> if taken literally.
>
> Any you can think of in Oz?

I'll be buggered if I can...

Signature

Jeff R.

Penis Kolada - 14 Jul 2008 15:19 GMT
>> I am sure there are a number of language anomalies that don't make
>> sense if taken literally.
>>
>> Any you can think of in Oz?
>
> I'll be buggered if I can...

Very droll...

PK
bob@yeruncle.com - 15 Jul 2008 01:42 GMT
>>>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> Shouldn't you say, (as we Aussies do): "I couldn't care less" ?
>> Isn't that a better way of being suitably dismissive?

I usualy say 'couldn't' and not 'could', but I think that version is sarcasm,
not literalism... or it could be mindlessnessism...
Ken Hart - 16 Jul 2008 17:44 GMT
>>>>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> sarcasm,
> not literalism... or it could be mindlessnessism...

Both expressions "I could care less" and "...couldn't care less" are
somewhat ambiguous. That's why I prefer more plain-spoken, simple phrases
such as: "I don't care", "I don't give a damn", or "The meter has not been
invented that could measure my total and complete indifference"
Colin.D - 17 Jul 2008 00:10 GMT
>>>>>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
>>>> You North Americans are funny people.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> such as: "I don't care", "I don't give a damn", or "The meter has not been
> invented that could measure my total and complete indifference"

I don't see the ambiguity in 'I couldn't care less'.  That says my care
level is already zero, and I can't care less that that.

'I could care less' means I have a care level that that I can reduce to
a lesser level, so clearly I care some - which isn't what the phrase is
used to indicate.

A written phrase which does irritate me is 'baited breath' when they
mean 'bated breath', as in 'abate' or lessen, i.e. my breathing has
stopped in anticipation of some happening.

Do they go fishing with baited breath, I wonder?

Colin D.
bob@yeruncle.com - 17 Jul 2008 02:34 GMT
>>>>>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>such as: "I don't care", "I don't give a damn", or "The meter has not been
>invented that could measure my total and complete indifference"

How about - "You've mistaken me for someone who cares." (Or 'gives a sh.t'
depending on company.)
Alan Browne - 13 Jul 2008 17:33 GMT
>>  As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Shouldn't you say, (as we Aussies do): "I couldn't care less" ?
> Isn't that a better way of being suitably dismissive?

Both are informal statements.  I would tend to say "couldn't" but the
disinterest in the other form is dismissive enough.  It is not as if
people measure the weight of the words carefully in informal speech.

> This is one of those linguistic anomalies that irritate my poor
> sensitive soul.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Why do Yanks (and apparently Canadians) use that phrase?

1) Usenet is international.  Regional variations of English abound.
2) Usenet is informal.  People do not check what they write as if it
were a letter to the editor or a school paper or writing the great novel.
3) Grammar is deteriorating everywhere.  Most so in the US.  Canada is
not far behind, alas.
4) I find Brits use English and the French use French with finer
vocabulary than North American English and French speakers.  While I can
almost understand Spanish in Mexico and Argentina; in Venezuela it is
spoken too fast and in Spain they pronounce some things with a most
bizarre roll of the tongue that sounds like lisping.
5) Language evolves.  Then it evolves.  Then it evolves.
6) Media and the internet are both stabilizing language while adding new
content and expression.  See 5).
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Jeff R. - 14 Jul 2008 04:27 GMT
>> Why do Yanks (and apparently Canadians) use that phrase?
>
> 1) Usenet is international.  ...
> 2) Usenet is informal.  ....

You misunderstand my gripe, Alan.
I understand and (grudgingly) accept the laxity of written communication
online.
That's not the object of my query.

> 3) Grammar is deteriorating everywhere.  Most so in the US.  Canada is not
> far behind, alas.

Heh.
That's been the clarion-call of old buggers since before Socrates - but -
see (5) and (6) below.
My gripe is not a grammatical one; it is one of straightforward meaning -
more than just interpretation.

> 4) I find Brits use English and the French use French with finer
> vocabulary than North American English and French speakers.

That's surely just familiarity breeding contempt, yes?

> 5) Language evolves.  Then it evolves.  Then it evolves.

Yes.
Hence my earlier diatribe on "alternate" supplanting "alternative"
(Whoops! Wrong NG)

Evolution would usually imply the success of something with a superior skill
in replicating.  It's sad that incorrect usage and ignorance seem to survive
and replicate better than accuracy and precision.

I guess it's easier to use slovenly language.  Therefore its use will
increase.  Contradictory and illogical expressions will become fixed in the
language through this process of evolution.
Evolution is not always "good", and it doesn't always result in an
improvement to the organism.  Doesn't mean we can't rebel.

> 6) Media and the internet are both stabilizing language while adding new
> content and expression.  See 5).

Are they responsible for the expression "could care less" ?
I would have thought they were just reflecting common usage.

I have never heard that usage in Australia.
I "hear" it frequently from Nth American users.

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Alan Browne - 14 Jul 2008 17:12 GMT
>> 4) I find Brits use English and the French use French with finer
>> vocabulary than North American English and French speakers.
>
> That's surely just familiarity breeding contempt, yes?

Absolutely not.  Whenever I'm in the UK or France I can't help but
admire the more precise selection of nouns as well as higher care for
grammar.

>> 5) Language evolves.  Then it evolves.  Then it evolves.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> skill in replicating.  It's sad that incorrect usage and ignorance seem
> to survive and replicate better than accuracy and precision.

I do agree, however the world is composed of more and more generalists.

One recent article (NYT or WP) bemoaned the lack of knowledge about
general things (basic geography is a good example) and the two sides of
the argument which included the view that it's not so important to know
something as it is to know how to get information quickly and efficiently...

> I guess it's easier to use slovenly language.  Therefore its use will
> increase.  Contradictory and illogical expressions will become fixed in
> the language through this process of evolution.
> Evolution is not always "good", and it doesn't always result in an
> improvement to the organism.  Doesn't mean we can't rebel.

See above.  I happen to agree with you but that does not mean we're
going to turn the wave.

>> 6) Media and the internet are both stabilizing language while adding
>> new content and expression.  See 5).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I have never heard that usage in Australia.
> I "hear" it frequently from Nth American users.

Then it's a regional thing.  There are many odd things about English as
spoken in Australia as well to both NAmer and British ears...

Cheers,
Alan.

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Atheist Chaplain - 13 Jul 2008 02:51 GMT
On Jul 12, 11:44 am, Robert Coe <b...@1776.COM> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:09:10 -0700 (PDT), Annika1980 <annika1...@aol.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>thought it was quite warm there, even in winter.
>As far as who has the coldest climate, I could care less.

and that's the way I took It Helen :-)
I have friends in Alberta and I a get the odd email with the photos of 6'
snow drifts and double digit negative temps :-)
While we had snow here a few days ago, it very rarely settles anymore.
I live in an area of Australia that gets +40C temps in the Summer and in
winter we get into the double digit negatives (not Canada type double digit
negative but -10 to -15 C or so and the odd occasion).

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Helen - 13 Jul 2008 03:03 GMT
> On Jul 12, 11:44 am, Robert Coe <b...@1776.COM> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> --
> God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

The climate in Canada is as diverse as the landscape.
Here is a guide showing the different temps. in each region beginning
in January all the way through to December.
http://www.studycanada.ca/english/climate.htm
MI - 13 Jul 2008 03:28 GMT
On 7/12/08 6:51 PM, in article g5bn3c$jo1$1@aioe.org, "Atheist Chaplain"
<abused@cia.gov> wrote:

> On Jul 12, 11:44 am, Robert Coe <b...@1776.COM> wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:09:10 -0700 (PDT), Annika1980 <annika1...@aol.com>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> winter we get into the double digit negatives (not Canada type double digit
> negative but -10 to -15 C or so and the odd occasion)

Not in my part of Canada. -3C is cold enough for me! And I start really
complaining about the unseasonable weather at -5C.

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Rita Berkowitz - 13 Jul 2008 03:29 GMT
> While we had snow here a few days ago, it very rarely settles anymore.
> I live in an area of Australia that gets +40C temps in the Summer and
> in winter we get into the double digit negatives (not Canada type
> double digit negative but -10 to -15 C or so and the odd occasion).

Damn!  That's cold!  Next you'll be telling me you have penguins?

Rita
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Atheist Chaplain - 13 Jul 2008 10:07 GMT
>> While we had snow here a few days ago, it very rarely settles anymore.
>> I live in an area of Australia that gets +40C temps in the Summer and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Rita

No Penguins here, the poisonous snakes killed them off millennia ago, and we
don't have many snakes up here either as the poisonous spiders killed off
most of them :-)

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Radical Radish - 13 Jul 2008 15:59 GMT
>> While we had snow here a few days ago, it very rarely settles anymore.
>> I live in an area of Australia that gets +40C temps in the Summer and
>> in winter we get into the double digit negatives (not Canada type
>> double digit negative but -10 to -15 C or so and the odd occasion).
>
> Damn!  That's cold!  Next you'll be telling me you have penguins?

Yep. In the southern states we have penguins.

They are called Fairy Penguins.

http://www.ozanimals.com/Bird/Fairy-Penguin/Eudyptula/minor.html

Of course the gay community wants their name to be changed. Probably
still complain if they renamed them "Poofter Parrots". No pleasing the gays.

Rad
Rita Berkowitz - 13 Jul 2008 20:04 GMT
>> Damn!  That's cold!  Next you'll be telling me you have penguins?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> still complain if they renamed them "Poofter Parrots". No pleasing
> the gays.

Holy crap!  Those things are nice.  As for the gays, ever since they
abolished the woodshed we were destined for moral decay and the fall of
civilization.  First it's gay marriage, now the penguins.  We're two steps
behind the Roman Empire.

Rita
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Atheist Chaplain - 14 Jul 2008 01:00 GMT
>>> Damn!  That's cold!  Next you'll be telling me you have penguins?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Rita

If people want the Gays to stop having sex, then I say let them get married
;-)

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Helen - 12 Jul 2008 20:17 GMT
> > I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
> > Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
>
> -6C?  That's just a warm spring day in Canada.

Speaking from where I am, Toronto, some spring days can be cold (not
requiring a parka like some would think), but I've also seen it very
warm on some spring days too, reaching into the low-middle 70's
fahrenheit.
Cal I Fornicate - 12 Jul 2008 20:29 GMT
>>>> no argument there, I know I'm overweight but my blood pressure is
>>>> good and so is my cholesterol, I just need to get off my arse and do
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
> Helen

Australia's a big country, it covers temperate, sub-tropical and
tropical zones. When it is below freezing in the southern states it can
be hot enough to require air conditioning in the far north.

I went all the way around it back in the eighties.

Cal
Helen - 12 Jul 2008 20:41 GMT
> >> "Rita Berkowitz" <ritaberk2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Cal

It is a beautiful country, from what I've seen on tv and magazines.
But what I love are the birds and some of the animals.
Cal I Fornicate - 12 Jul 2008 21:00 GMT
>>>>>> no argument there, I know I'm overweight but my blood pressure is
>>>>>> good and so is my cholesterol, I just need to get off my arse and do
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> It is a beautiful country, from what I've seen on tv and magazines.
> But what I love are the birds and some of the animals.

The people are pretty friendly too, though when I was last there after
9/11 it wasn't quite so good. Bush has done some serious damage to US
foreign relations in the follow-up to 9/11.

I like the Northern parts of Oz, and the Whitsunday Islands are
spectacular. I could live there indefinitely. Down in Tasmania it is
like Europe or the UK, both in climate and appearance, and in the North
it is all Palm trees and tropical jungle, blue waters and white sands,
exotic birds (human and feathered) and a perfect climate. Great fishing,
cheap food and rents etc., and girls who love guys with American
accents. Or Canadian, most can't tell the difference. :)

Cal
Indigo Blue - 15 Jul 2008 07:52 GMT
> I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
> Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
> Helen

A complete list of average climate in different parts of Australia is
here, should you care to enlighten yourself.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/annual_sum/2003/page16.pdf
Ray Fischer - 15 Jul 2008 08:54 GMT
>> I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
>> Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
>
>A complete list of average climate in different parts of Australia is
>here, should you care to enlighten yourself.
>http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/annual_sum/2003/page16.pdf

That's not very cold.

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Noons - 24 Jul 2008 23:30 GMT
wrote,on my timestamp of 1/01/1970 11:00 AM:

>> I had no idea it got that cold in Australia,  AC.  Not as cold as
>> Canadian winters but all the same I'm surprised.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> here, should you care to enlighten yourself.
> http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/annual_sum/2003/page16.pdf

errr.....
enlightenment is too long a word for "Helen".
wasting your time there...
Rita Berkowitz - 13 Jul 2008 03:30 GMT
>> See, this is a perfect excuse for you to buy that long lens you were
>> always
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> had to de-frost the car doors before I could even open them :-)
> so forgive me if I say "Bugger going for a morning walk at the moment"

Damn!  I never thought it got that cold there.  I guess the popular
portrayal of Australia being tropical to desert is a bit overblown?

Rita
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Doug Jewell - 15 Jul 2008 21:14 GMT
> currently the mornings here are -6 C so not conducive to anyone let
> alone anyone with a camera :-)
> I was up at 5AM today so I could take my little girl down to Sydney so
> she could fly out to Vietnam for 3 weeks, the frost was so thick I had
> to de-frost the car doors before I could even open them :-)
> so forgive me if I say "Bugger going for a morning walk at the moment"

Sook!!
A few years ago I had the joy of a winter in Canberra. I
found the mornings extremely conducive to a camera. Fog &
Frost is a combination I don't normally see here.
Atheist Chaplain - 16 Jul 2008 14:33 GMT
>> currently the mornings here are -6 C so not conducive to anyone let alone
>> anyone with a camera :-)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> mornings extremely conducive to a camera. Fog & Frost is a combination I
> don't normally see here.

Yeah I'm a sook :-P
Snow and frost can wear thing after a few years :-)

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Doug Jewell - 15 Jul 2008 21:20 GMT
>> no argument there, I know I'm overweight but my blood pressure is
>> good and so is my cholesterol, I just need to get off my arse and do
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> dreaming about and go out on morning hikes.  I'm sure you guys have some
> beautiful wooded areas Down Under that are spectacular in the morning?
Indeed we do.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdaj/844539140/
Surprisingly, this is only about 200m from a city area. The
city goes up to the edge of the range escarpment, then it
falls away some 400m into the Lockyer valley below.
The morning I took that it was a lovely -1C. Normally at
those temps there would be frost, but it does require
moisture to have frost. Lower down on in the valley there is
some moisture (although it is warmer down there), but up
here it has been dry as a bone for an extended period of
time as we are in the grip of the worst drought on record.
Plants will get frost-bitten but there won't be any sign of
frost on the ground.
Rita Berkowitz - 16 Jul 2008 00:16 GMT
>> See, this is a perfect excuse for you to buy that long lens you were
>> always dreaming about and go out on morning hikes.  I'm sure you
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Plants will get frost-bitten but there won't be any sign of
> frost on the ground.

All I can say, that is stunning!  Well worth going out in the cold and
getting the shot.

Rita
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Doug Jewell - 16 Jul 2008 00:56 GMT
>>> See, this is a perfect excuse for you to buy that long lens you were
>>> always dreaming about and go out on morning hikes.  I'm sure you
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> All I can say, that is stunning!  Well worth going out in the cold and
> getting the shot.
Thanks. I do wish we had snow here though, would make the
cold a little more inviting if it was prettier!

> Rita
Annika1980 - 11 Jul 2008 17:57 GMT
> Isn't stepping up to the plate the reason why so many American women are
> so fat?
>
> Someone should hide the plate.

New Study Shows That Australia Tops US As Most Obese Nation

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/256350
John McWilliams - 11 Jul 2008 18:25 GMT
>> Isn't stepping up to the plate the reason why so many American women are
>> so fat?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/256350

Obesity is a, uh, growing problem worldwide, as is ironically, starvation.

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Atheist Chaplain - 12 Jul 2008 13:46 GMT
On Jul 11, 4:46 am, Cal I Fornicate <priv...@bitz.com> wrote:

> Isn't stepping up to the plate the reason why so many American women are
> so fat?
>
> Someone should hide the plate.

New Study Shows That Australia Tops US As Most Obese Nation

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/256350

Studies also show that Australian live longer than Americans, with
Australians expecting a life span of around 80 years yet Americans can
expect to shuffle off this mortal coil in about 78 years. Even Israelis live
longer than you guys!

Must be that excellent and expensive free health care you guys
have............... oops, that's right, you don't have free health care do
you.
you don't have much of anything free for that matter, so not only do you die
younger but it cost you more to do it, that would suck if you lived long
enough to appreciate it :-)
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tony cooper - 12 Jul 2008 15:09 GMT
>New Study Shows That Australia Tops US As Most Obese Nation
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>younger but it cost you more to do it, that would suck if you lived long
>enough to appreciate it :-)

There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
doctor/hospital directly.  You pay your government who passes along
the money to the doctor/hospital.  

The care is not free.  It's just a matter of how the money gets from
the patient to the providers.

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Robert Coe - 12 Jul 2008 16:50 GMT
: There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
: in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: The care is not free.  It's just a matter of how the money gets from
: the patient to the providers.

And of how many capitalist drones take a cut of it along the way.

Bob
Alan Browne - 12 Jul 2008 21:58 GMT
> There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
> in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The care is not free.  It's just a matter of how the money gets from
> the patient to the providers.

Absolutely right.  (We _can_ agree on something I guess Tony!).
However, the manner of coverage has effects.

The only advantage of universal health is that any citizen is covered
whether or not he pays taxes.  There is less suffering and one does not
have to make very unpleasant choices when someone is critically ill.

There is much better pre-natal care.  In Quebec, a woman gets up to 1
year of unemployment payments after a baby is born (or this can be 6
months for both parents).  (The politics of negative population growth
are in play and there are many incentives to pop babies out.)

(In the recent The Economist they talk about the British NHS at 60 years
... one of the original premises was that as people got healthier, costs
would reduce.  Of course as people got healthier their expectations for
service grew while they also aged longer requiring more care...)

Still, the life expectancy in Canada is longer that the US and the
infant mortality rate is lower as well.

The disadvantage is that everything averages out, so there are fewer
centers of excellence (cancer, cardiac, etc.) than in the US and
therefore we have longer waits for some tests and procedures.  In
Quebec, there are more and more private clinics/surgeries (not allowed
in most other provinces) but the province will cover most private costs.

We also have brain drain as a radiologist here will pull in $300 - $400K
or half (or less) of what he would get in the US.  So we train 'em (very
costly) and then they bugger off to the US for higher pay.

A cardiac surgeon here would pull in $400K and in the US upwards of
$1.5M (maybe more).

We're also losing nurses to the US.

If you're lucky and healthy, you don't worry.

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tony cooper - 12 Jul 2008 23:03 GMT
>> There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
>> in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>whether or not he pays taxes.  There is less suffering and one does not
>have to make very unpleasant choices when someone is critically ill.

The US does not have universal health care, but whether or not a
citizen has health care is not determined by whether or not they pay
taxes.   Health care is available to non-tax-paying citizens, but the
level of health care may not be the same as the tax-paying citizens
receive.  

This is not because of the tax-paying aspect, though.  It has more to
do with the employment aspect and the availability of private
insurance plans through employment.  Don't think, though, that all
employed Americans pay income tax.  Income tax may be withheld, but
the refund may exceed the withheld amount.

>There is much better pre-natal care.  In Quebec, a woman gets up to 1
>year of unemployment payments after a baby is born (or this can be 6
>months for both parents).

Pre-natal care is the care provided before the baby is born.  I don't
quite understand why post-natal women get unemployment benefits since
employment is not a condition leading to pregnancy.

While we don't pay unemployment benefits based on children, we do pay
benefits in other forms.  

Incidently, my wife has been a case manager for years in a free,
state-run clinic program for pre- and post-natal females.  What she
finds amazing and greatly disappointing is that so many pregnant
females do not make any effort to participate in this program.  She
will often be notified of a woman who has delivered a baby (hospitals
are required to notify her agency) but has gone nine months without
any pre-natal attention.  

>(The politics of negative population growth
>are in play and there are many incentives to pop babies out.)

We call that ADC (Aid for Dependent Children) in the US.

Don't get me wrong.  I am not saying that the US health care system is
at all sufficient or equitable.  It is probably better than some not
familiar with the system believe, but it is still lacking in many
ways.

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Ray Fischer - 13 Jul 2008 18:06 GMT
>> There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
>> in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>whether or not he pays taxes.  There is less suffering and one does not
>have to make very unpleasant choices when someone is critically ill.

The other advantage is that everybody is contributes, even the
healthy, which reduced the cost for all.

And another advantage is that medical problems get treated in the
early stages when it's still relatively inexpensive to do so.

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tony cooper - 13 Jul 2008 19:38 GMT
>>> There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
>>> in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>The other advantage is that everybody is contributes, even the
>healthy, which reduced the cost for all.

How does that work?  To contribute, you must have income.  It is the
people who do not have income who are most affected by the absence of
a universal health care system.  

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Ray Fischer - 13 Jul 2008 20:32 GMT
>>>> There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
>>>> in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>people who do not have income who are most affected by the absence of
>a universal health care system.  

The number of people have have NO income is almost zero.  There is a
vast gap between not having any income and not having enough income to
afford health care.

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tony cooper - 13 Jul 2008 23:31 GMT
>>>>> There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
>>>>> in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>The number of people have have NO income is almost zero.

Where in the world would you get such an idea?  Unemployed people do
not have income that would be available in a contributing universal
health plan.  They may have off-the-books income, but that would not
be subject to premiums for universal health care.  (The type of plan
proposed by some politicians whereby everyone is required to
participate)  The unemployed may have income from social programs like
ADC or unemployment benefits, but this would not be subject to
contribution.  People on Social Security would presumably participate,
and Medicare A and B would be eliminated.  

When speaking of income-based contribution programs, the only income
involved is reported earned income.  With unemployment at 5.5%, that's
a lot of people who don't have income.

> There is a
>vast gap between not having any income and not having enough income to
>afford health care.

The comment was not about being able to afford health care.  The
comment was about contributing to a universal health scheme.
Theoretically, with a universal health scheme where everyone has to
participate, the premiums would be affordable and income-tied.
Presumably.

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Ray Fischer - 14 Jul 2008 04:39 GMT
>>>>>> There is no such thing as free medical care.  You pay for medical care
>>>>>> in any country.  We pay medical insurance premiums or pay the
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>Where in the world would you get such an idea?

Where do I get my facts?  From the real world.

>  Unemployed people do

BZZZT!  Dishonest attempt to move the goalposts.  15 yard penalty.

Whether a person is unemployed is IRRELEVANT.

[...]
>  They may have off-the-books income,

And you're pretending that income isn't income?

[...]
>> There is a
>>vast gap between not having any income and not having enough income to
>>afford health care.
>
>The comment was not about being able to afford health care.  The
>comment was about contributing to a universal health scheme.

Which can be done many ways.

>Theoretically, with a universal health scheme where everyone has to
>participate, the premiums would be affordable and income-tied.

Health care for the wealthy.

Social darwinism.

Maintaining the status quo, in other words.

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Ray Fischer        
rfischer@sonic.net

Alan Browne - 13 Jul 2008 20:13 GMT
> The other advantage is that everybody is contributes, even the
> healthy, which reduced the cost for all.

Most of the contributions obviously come from the healthy and working.
But if you are a citizen or admitted resident of the territory, then you
are covered.

Sick or not/working or not/paying taxes or not.

> And another advantage is that medical problems get treated in the
> early stages when it's still relatively inexpensive to do so.

Yep. (although many patients are their own worse enemy even when there
is no cost or obstacle to getting treatment).

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Atheist Chaplain - 13 Jul 2008 03:00 GMT
>>New Study Shows That Australia Tops US As Most Obese Nation
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> The care is not free.  It's just a matter of how the money gets from
> the patient to the providers.

to a pedant, that is of course true, but to the average Joe who just cut the
tip off his finger and had it stitched up at the local emergency department,
he cares not a jot, as he can walk out without having to put his hand in his
pocket.
regardless of your opinion of the man (Michael Moore), have a look at
"Sicko" to see the current state of the US Health System. All pretty much
confirmed as true by my Brother, who spent a decade working in the US at
some of the largest hospitals in the Country (ER Nurse)

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God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

tony cooper - 13 Jul 2008 03:42 GMT
>>>New Study Shows That Australia Tops US As Most Obese Nation
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>he cares not a jot, as he can walk out without having to put his hand in his
>pocket.

My cost for that visit is $50.  That's the co-pay required by my
private insurance for a hospital emergency room visit.  The cost is
$25 if I go to a doctor's office or an outpatient facility.  Free, to
me, if the accident was the result of an automobile accident.  Hardly
onerous.  

For that matter, I paid $50 for by-pass heart surgery.   That amount
only because I was admitted through ER.

>regardless of your opinion of the man (Michael Moore), have a look at
>"Sicko" to see the current state of the US Health System.

I'm very familiar with the US health care system.  I spent my working
career dealing with hospitals.

>All pretty much
>confirmed as true by my Brother, who spent a decade working in the US at
>some of the largest hospitals in the Country (ER Nurse)

Why?  If there was no advantage to being a nurse in the US or a
resident of the US, compared to being a nurse in Oz and a resident of
Oz, why would your brother spend ten years here?



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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Robert Coe - 13 Jul 2008 06:41 GMT
: >>>New Study Shows That Australia Tops US As Most Obese Nation
: >>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
: For that matter, I paid $50 for by-pass heart surgery.   That amount
: only because I was admitted through ER.

I think I've got you beat, Tony. The cost of my bypass was $0. I went to the
ER too, of course, but my plan had a provision that if the ER visit resulted
in admission to the hospital, the $50 co-pay was waived.

Bob

Obligatory photographic content: Long before I had my surgery, I watched a
bypass operation on TV (the first time one was ever shown, I believe). After
seeing it, I swore then and there that I'd never allow such a procedure to be
done on me. It's amazing how actually finding oneself in a life threatening
situation clarifies one's thinking on such matters.
Atheist Chaplain - 13 Jul 2008 10:29 GMT
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:42:04 -0400, tony cooper
> <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net>
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> threatening
> situation clarifies one's thinking on such matters.

My Dad has you all beat, he is a pensioner with no private cover, and he
recently underwent surgery to correct an aneurysm in his Aorta and repair
damage to his right kidney, he was operated on by one of Australia's top
specialist surgeons (A Professor who's name eludes me at the moment), he has
not had to pay a single cent for this life saving procedure, and is not
expected to.

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God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?

tony cooper - 13 Jul 2008 14:40 GMT
>I think I've got you beat, Tony. The cost of my bypass was $0. I went to the
>ER too, of course, but my plan had a provision that if the ER visit resulted
>in admission to the hospital, the $50 co-pay was waived.

Mine was in stages.  First the ER, then cardiac catheterization, then
surgery.  I went in because I "felt funny", and left nine days later.

>Obligatory photographic content: Long before I had my surgery, I watched a
>bypass operation on TV (the first time one was ever shown, I believe). After
>seeing it, I swore then and there that I'd never allow such a procedure to be
>done on me. It's amazing how actually finding oneself in a life threatening
>situation clarifies one's thinking on such matters.

You think it was difficult for you...I spent my entire working career
in specialty medical product distribution.  Part of it as a salesman
and most of it as the owner of a company that distributed specialty
medical products used in surgery.

I've scrubbed in as an observer in all kinds of surgery including
heart surgery.  I've stood there and watched them crack the sternum
and winced as they cranked the chest open.  I don't know if the noises
came across in your TV program.  The opening, and closing with wires,
is far from delicate surgery.

My obligatory photographic content is that part of the product line
that I distributed was Zeiss operation microscopes used in eye, ear,
neuro, spinal, and micro-reattachment surgery.  Also flexible
endoscopes of various kinds.  I've set up hospitals with the
photographic equipment used in conjunction with those instruments.
Mostly Contax 35mm film bodies.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Doug Jewell - 15 Jul 2008 21:51 GMT
> : For that matter, I paid $50 for by-pass heart surgery.   That amount
> : only because I was admitted through ER.
>
> I think I've got you beat, Tony. The cost of my bypass was $0. I went to the
> ER too, of course, but my plan had a provision that if the ER visit resulted
> in admission to the hospital, the $50 co-pay was waived.
<