Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / December 2007
The Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 Totally Destroys Canon's 14mm f/2.8L II Prime!!
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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 03:00 GMT There's no surprise here! It seems these are great times to be a Nikon shooter or a Canon shooter with an adapter. How can Canon justify putting out such a crappy lens and charge over $2,000 for it? How can Canon justify putting out the 1Ds Mk III and not supply six Nikkor adapter rings with it? Canon needs to get their act together and contract Nikon to make their glass, and quickly if they want to be taken seriously by pro shooters. This is beyond criminal when the quality of the 14/2.8L II is equal to a $200 kit lens.
<http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l2_a.html>
Rita
Annika1980 - 22 Dec 2007 03:37 GMT > <http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l...> > > Rita Hey, isn't that the same webiste that found the Canon 17-40L to be the equal of your heralded Nikon 17-35 f/2.8? Yeah, that's what I thought.
PixelPix - 22 Dec 2007 03:55 GMT > > <http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l...> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > equal of your heralded Nikon 17-35 f/2.8? > Yeah, that's what I thought. Once again ignoring the OP's obvious troll.... the new Nikon lens looks to be a stella performer and could be the wide angle that I have been waiting for. Until now, there has been nothing from either camp (Nik/Can) that has matched this level of performance.... and to get this from a zoom is quite an achievement!
I hope that husband gets his adapter into full production sometime soon... or better still, that Canon comes up with a worthy challenger!
Rusty
PixelPix - 22 Dec 2007 04:18 GMT > > > <http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l...> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Rusty Bugga! A problem has just been pointed out to me about this lens..... due to the front element/hood design, the use of ND Grads is real problem. :-(
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 14:40 GMT > Bugga! A problem has just been pointed out to me about this lens..... > due to the front element/hood design, the use of ND Grads is real > problem. :-( Yep! This major design flaw is why I have passed on getting this lens. The old 17-35/2.8 Nikkor will do for me.
Rita
TH O - 22 Dec 2007 18:39 GMT In article <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Bugga! A problem has just been pointed out to me about this lens..... > due to the front element/hood design, the use of ND Grads is real > problem. :-( What about Cokin adapters and filters with a Cokin hood? Will any of them be wide enough for this lens?
N - 23 Dec 2007 00:18 GMT > In article > <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What about Cokin adapters and filters with a Cokin hood? Will any of > them be wide enough for this lens? Take a look at the lens on the Nikon web site. The petal shaped hood is built-in.
TH O - 23 Dec 2007 00:50 GMT In article <476daa1d$0$6832$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> > In article > > <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Take a look at the lens on the Nikon web site. The petal shaped hood is > built-in. Didn't know that. What about holding one of the square ND filters over the front of the lens then? That's my last suggestion ... if that doesn't work, you're SOL. ;)
William Graham - 23 Dec 2007 00:58 GMT >> In article >> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Take a look at the lens on the Nikon web site. The petal shaped hood is > built-in. It's hard to tell.....My 70 - 300 had a "built in" shade.....Until I discovered one day that it unscrewed and could be removed......
N - 23 Dec 2007 02:16 GMT >>> In article >>> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It's hard to tell.....My 70 - 300 had a "built in" shade.....Until I > discovered one day that it unscrewed and could be removed...... Take another look at the website. The front element appears to protrude too far for any filters to be attached.
Paul Furman - 23 Dec 2007 05:35 GMT >>>> In article >>>> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Take another look at the website. The front element appears to protrude > too far for any filters to be attached. The old 14/2.8 is the same design. ND grad could be done in post-processing with the D3'd dynamic range though.
TH O - 23 Dec 2007 05:44 GMT > >>>> In article > >>>> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > The old 14/2.8 is the same design. ND grad could be done in > post-processing with the D3'd dynamic range though. If he takes multiple pics and combines them with HDR or similar tools. If print film couldn't record these scenes properly in most cases, a digital camera with lower dynamic range isn't going to have success.
Paul Furman - 23 Dec 2007 05:52 GMT >>>>>> In article >>>>>> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > If print film couldn't record these scenes properly in most cases, a > digital camera with lower dynamic range isn't going to have success. Watch the highlights & pull the shadows from a high bit raw. The shadows have more DR than film from comparisons I've read. Not quite a ND grad but I do that all the time with good results.
Max Perl - 23 Dec 2007 09:50 GMT >> In article >> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Take a look at the lens on the Nikon web site. The petal shaped hood is > built-in. Normally this kind of lenses has a drop in or screw in filter possibility at the rear end of the lens......like the 15/3.5 has..........
N - 23 Dec 2007 11:37 GMT >>> In article >>> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907eaef@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > at the > rear end of the lens......like the 15/3.5 has.......... There is no mention of filter size in the tech spec on the website.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 11:50 GMT > Normally this kind of lenses has a drop in or screw in filter > possibility at the > rear end of the lens......like the 15/3.5 has.......... Nope.
Rita
Max Perl - 23 Dec 2007 14:41 GMT >> Normally this kind of lenses has a drop in or screw in filter >> possibility at the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Rita For landscapes using my 17-35 AFS I always use a polarizer......so I thing I would miss if I had the 14-24. But it seems to be a good performer.......
Max
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 15:08 GMT >>> Normally this kind of lenses has a drop in or screw in filter >>> possibility at the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > thing I would miss if I had > the 14-24. But it seems to be a good performer....... That's my feeling as well. I keep UV filters on all my lenses for protection. The 14-24 would be a disaster waiting to happen for me. The 17-35 is an excellent lens that will be hard to beat for decades to come.
Rita
Annika1980 - 23 Dec 2007 16:01 GMT > That's my feeling as well. I keep UV filters on all my lenses for > protection. Too bad your fuckin dad didn't have that philosophy.
UV filters for protection? They make lens caps for that, you know. Why buy expensive glass and then make it shoot through some cheap glass? Of course, I'm one to talk having shot many pics through windows and all.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 16:14 GMT > UV filters for protection? They make lens caps for that, you know. > Why buy expensive glass and then make it shoot through some cheap > glass? Of course, I'm one to talk having shot many pics through > windows and all. It's all good, especially when shooting in the rain! It's pissing like a Pakistani racehorse over here.
Rita
TH O - 24 Dec 2007 17:34 GMT In article <24cd0103-a1ba-43d5-bfaf-c287dc52380f@f52g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> > That's my feeling as well. I keep UV filters on all my lenses for > > protection. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > glass? Of course, I'm one to talk having shot many pics through > windows and all. Ever seen any comparison photos showing UV filters degrading image quality? (and no, $3 filters don't count)
Tony Polson - 23 Dec 2007 18:51 GMT >For landscapes using my 17-35 AFS I always use a polarizer......so I thing I >would miss if I had >the 14-24. But it seems to be a good performer....... Because of the angle of view of a 14-24mm on a full frame DSLR or a film SLR, a polariser won't work. It will polarise some part of the field of view but will have no effect on other parts, leading to a horribly uneven effect across the frame. So whether or not you can actually fit a polariser to a 14-24mm f/2.8 is somewhat irrelevant.
I never use a polariser on any lens wider than 35mm on full frame. On DX format I will go no wider than 24mm with a polariser.
Max Perl - 23 Dec 2007 21:08 GMT >>For landscapes using my 17-35 AFS I always use a polarizer......so I thing >>I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > horribly uneven effect across the frame. So whether or not you can > actually fit a polariser to a 14-24mm f/2.8 is somewhat irrelevant. For the sky you are right.....it can be very uneven using a polarizer. But it some cases the polarizer could make sense I think......giving more saturated greens on leaves.....also it you have some water in the foreground it can be nice to remove reflections or make the water transparent. It depends very much on the scene. You can have an element very close to the lens where a polarizer makes sense.
The 14-24 is probably not ment to be used on film cameras for B/W films. But here it would be nice to have the possiblity to use e.g. a yellow filter. Strange Nikon does not mention anything about using filters on this lens? ......or do they say it is just not possible?
> I never use a polariser on any lens wider than 35mm on full frame. On > DX format I will go no wider than 24mm with a polariser. Tony Polson - 23 Dec 2007 21:50 GMT >>>For landscapes using my 17-35 AFS I always use a polarizer......so I thing >>>I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >It depends very much on the scene. You can have an element very close to the >lens where a polarizer makes sense. That's true. I accept all those points, Max. But you have to be very careful, and it helps if you know what you are doing, which I know you do. For the average amateur, it is best to avoid using a polariser with ultra-wide angle lenses.
>The 14-24 is probably not ment to be used on film cameras for B/W films. But >here >it would be nice to have the possiblity to use e.g. a yellow filter. >Strange Nikon does not mention anything about using filters on this lens? >......or do they >say it is just not possible? This lens looks like it will be a big seller. I'm sure that there will be an aftermarket filter adapter before long.
Max Perl - 23 Dec 2007 23:36 GMT >>>>For landscapes using my 17-35 AFS I always use a polarizer......so I >>>>thing [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > This lens looks like it will be a big seller. I'm sure that there > will be an aftermarket filter adapter before long. It seems that these "super-zooms" often are better in the mid zoom range (in this case at 20mm) than the corresponding prime lens. Probably because of more time spent on development and use of expensive glass etc. I sold my AFD 24/2.8 after I got the 17-35 zoom which I use as a variable 24mm lens :-) ......the 12-24 will be a pretty good 18mm lens even at a full frame body I hope.....
Tony Polson - 24 Dec 2007 12:32 GMT >>>>>For landscapes using my 17-35 AFS I always use a polarizer......so I >>>>>thing [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >even at a full frame body >I hope..... I think you're probably right. I just hope that the 12-24mm doesn't have the same huge variability that afflicted the early production of the 17-35mm f/2.8.
William Graham - 23 Dec 2007 22:27 GMT >>>For landscapes using my 17-35 AFS I always use a polarizer......so I >>>thing I [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> I never use a polariser on any lens wider than 35mm on full frame. On >> DX format I will go no wider than 24mm with a polariser. They are also very useful when shooting window displays through the glass.......
PixelPix - 23 Dec 2007 13:23 GMT > >> In article > >> <2df39873-b703-46a9-9e10-ed2d7907e...@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the > rear end of the lens......like the 15/3.5 has.......... Sadly that doesn't help with ND Grads :(
Paul Furman - 25 Dec 2007 17:12 GMT >> "N" <n...@st.y> skrev : >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sadly that doesn't help with ND Grads :( The Sigma 14mm has a very narrow slot for drop in sheet material cut to fit. I think there just isn't room to allow more for such a wide lens. The Canon also doesn't seem to accept filters and has the built in petal hood.
Tony Polson - 25 Dec 2007 17:19 GMT >>> "N" <n...@st.y> skrev : >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >The Canon also doesn't seem to accept filters and has the built in petal >hood. There seems to be a presumption among manufacturers that if you use digital, there is no need for you to use filters.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 14:39 GMT >>> <http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l...> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (Nik/Can) that has matched this level of performance.... and to get > this from a zoom is quite an achievement! Amazing! Pointing out "obvious" facts is considered trolling. Wonders never cease around here.
> I hope that husband gets his adapter into full production sometime > soon... or better still, that Canon comes up with a worthy challenger! This would be nice since this is a Canon shooter's dream lens, optically speaking, of course.
Rita
Douglas - 22 Dec 2007 05:27 GMT > There's no surprise here! It seems these are great times to be a Nikon > shooter or a Canon shooter with an adapter. How can Canon justify putting [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Rita Although Canon have made some notable (and questionable) advances in lens designs in the past 25 years, they are not known for producing extremely high optical quality lenses. In fact most Canon lenses are of the plastic element variety and could be discarded from serious consideration in image quality. Their line-up of lenses then, isn't all that crash hot or very good value.
Way back when the T90 was released a leading magazine editor remarked that if you could get Nikon and Canon to agree, the world's best camera would be a Canon using Nikon lenses.
I think he'd change his mind if he could see the results of the 3D. All the pictures on that site show Rita, is what us older shooters have known for most of our life. Canon make leading edge (often faulty) cameras but Olympus and Nikon make the best lenses.
Douglas
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 14:41 GMT > Although Canon have made some notable (and questionable) advances in > lens designs in the past 25 years, they are not known for producing > extremely high optical quality lenses. In fact most Canon lenses are > of the plastic element variety and could be discarded from serious > consideration in image quality. Their line-up of lenses then, isn't > all that crash hot or very good value. I know and can accept Canon was never an optical company and the lenses they produced were really never up to standards. My problem with them is they should charge accordingly. If the new 14/2.8L II was priced accordingly at $400 MSRP it would be an acceptable lens for the performance level given. I found this out with the 500/4L IS USM. I could force myself to live with it were priced at $1,500 MSRP.
> Way back when the T90 was released a leading magazine editor remarked > that if you could get Nikon and Canon to agree, the world's best > camera would be a Canon using Nikon lenses. Absolutely! I loved the results I got from the Mk III and my Nikkors.
> I think he'd change his mind if he could see the results of the 3D. > All the pictures on that site show Rita, is what us older shooters > have known for most of our life. Canon make leading edge (often > faulty) cameras but Olympus and Nikon make the best lenses. If it weren't for the D3's announcement I would be shooting Canon with my Nikkors for most stuff and buy a few L lenses for when I really need AF. If the D3 can provide the same image quality as my old Mk III I will be in Utopia.
Rita
default - 22 Dec 2007 07:17 GMT > <http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l2_a.html> Since the images in most of 16-9.nets tests show sharpening artifacts, I'm surprised that anyone puts any credibility to their tests.
Alfred Molon - 22 Dec 2007 11:36 GMT > > <http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l2_a.html> > > Since the images in most of 16-9.nets tests show sharpening artifacts, I'm > surprised that anyone puts any credibility to their tests. Chromatic aberrations have nothing to do with sharpening.
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Alfred Molon ------------------------------ Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/ http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 14:42 GMT >>> <http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l2_a.html> >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Chromatic aberrations have nothing to do with sharpening. LOL! You're right. It seems these tests will always bring someone out of the woodwork to try to shoot down the facts. Sadly, Canon's 14/2.8 really isn't a good lens.
Rita
Annika1980 - 22 Dec 2007 17:31 GMT > >> Since the images in most of 16-9.nets tests show sharpening > >> artifacts, I'm surprised that anyone puts any credibility to their [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Rita Here's a fact for ya. The Nikon pics in that test were sharpened considerably. I know this because he posted a link to the RAW file on the FM forum. No doubt that the Canon pics would have looked better with similar sharpening.
And why doesn't he show the same part of the frame in the top photo of this comparison? http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24mm_1/nikon14_24mm_a.html
The new Nikon lens might be a great performer, but you can draw no worhtwhile comparisons from this test. It seems that its strength is in the corners of the frame which would benefit those with FF bodies.
PixelPix - 22 Dec 2007 18:11 GMT > > >> Since the images in most of 16-9.nets tests show sharpening > > >> artifacts, I'm surprised that anyone puts any credibility to their [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > worhtwhile comparisons from this test. It seems that its strength is > in the corners of the frame which would benefit those with FF bodies. Hmmm? .....The full frame RAW sample of Canon 14mm @ 2.8 that one user posted in the FM thread is rather impressive.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 23:15 GMT >> The new Nikon lens might be a great performer, but you can draw no >> worhtwhile comparisons from this test. It seems that its strength is >> in the corners of the frame which would benefit those with FF bodies. > > Hmmm? .....The full frame RAW sample of Canon 14mm @ 2.8 that one user > posted in the FM thread is rather impressive. Maybe he got lucky and got the one decent sample out of twelve. This is the most frequent complaint about L glass; you need to sample many to find the good one.
Rita
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 23:13 GMT >>> Chromatic aberrations have nothing to do with sharpening. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > considerably. I know this because he posted a link to the RAW file on > the FM forum. Sour grapes! Even if this is the case it still doesn't excuse all that CA. Of course, like you will say, you can deal with it in post. That's not the issue; it's an overpriced crappy prime that got its butt kicked by a dirt-cheap zoom.
> No doubt that the Canon pics would have looked better with similar > sharpening. Of course they would, if you like plastic.
> And why doesn't he show the same part of the frame in the top photo of > this comparison? > http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/nikon_14_24mm_1/nikon14_24mm_a.html Ask him.
> The new Nikon lens might be a great performer, but you can draw no > worhtwhile comparisons from this test. It seems that its strength is > in the corners of the frame which would benefit those with FF bodies. Just a little clue, this is the targeted audience for this type of lens. Only an idiot would put it on a 1.6X crop camera. The APS-H (1.3X crop) of the old Mk III is a nice compromise. Sadly, Canon's 14/2.8 would be just as much of an embarrassment on the APS-H sensor. Even you that seek mediocrity wouldn't be happy with purchasing the 14/2.8L II.
Rita
PixelPix - 22 Dec 2007 08:19 GMT > There's no surprise here! It seems these are great times to be a Nikon > shooter or a Canon shooter with an adapter. How can Canon justify putting [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Rita Some more info about this test and the canon adapter development can be found here....
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/594820
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 14:40 GMT > Some more info about this test and the canon adapter development can > be found here.... > > http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/594820 Thanks! It almost makes me wish I didn't sell the old Mk III. Still don't have my D3 and I'm getting hotter every day over it.
Rita
Neil Harrington - 22 Dec 2007 16:10 GMT >> Some more info about this test and the canon adapter development can >> be found here.... >> >> http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/594820 > > Thanks! It almost makes me wish I didn't sell the old Mk III. But the 18 months were up, right? You had no choice. The Rule Must Be Obeyed. ;-)
Neil
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Dec 2007 23:11 GMT >> Thanks! It almost makes me wish I didn't sell the old Mk III. > > But the 18 months were up, right? You had no choice. The Rule Must Be > Obeyed. ;-) LOL! Nope, I broke the contract early and had a little less than 15-months left. I did make a $100 profit on the deal but I'm suffering profusely since I don't have a high-ISO performer to hold me over till the D3 comes. If I had known Nikon was going to be such bastards and punish me like this I wouldn't have sold the Mk III so fast.
Rita
Neil Harrington - 23 Dec 2007 02:13 GMT >>> Thanks! It almost makes me wish I didn't sell the old Mk III. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I > wouldn't have sold the Mk III so fast. But you'll be happier with the D3 and you know it. Ken Rockwell's had his for a few weeks so yours will probably be here soon.
Neil
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 02:17 GMT > But you'll be happier with the D3 and you know it. Ken Rockwell's had > his for a few weeks so yours will probably be here soon. I know you are right, but deep down inside I really miss the old Mk III. I expected to have my D3 sooner than this. Bastards!
Rita
Annika1980 - 23 Dec 2007 02:32 GMT > > If I had known Nikon was going to be such bastards and punish me like this > > I > > wouldn't have sold the Mk III so fast. > > But you'll be happier with the D3 and you know it. Ken Rockwell's had his > for a few weeks so yours will probably be here soon. Yes, but Ken Rockwell probably bought his. He didn't have to wait in line at the rental counter like the idiot troll. Ever wonder why Rita always brags on equipment he supposedly owns and then supposedly gets rid of it? It all started with the much ballyhooed Nikon Noct 58mm f/ 1.4. A lens so perfect that Rita just had to sell it.
Then the fool bragged about owning a 1D3 and a 500 f/4L IS. That one sold quickly as well netting the idiot troll a tidy profit in the process no doubt, despite the fact that the 1D3 had focusing problems and people were dumping them cheaply. But that doesn't affect Rita because he knows the secret to buying equipment for next to nothing. "Buy low, sell high," he teaches us.
And be sure to sell exactly 18 months after you bought it because for some reason that's when the buyers on the used market always pay higher than list price for used gear. And if you believe all that hogwash, let me tell ya a little story about a retired multimillionaire yachtsman I know near Brisbane. It's a real doozy as well.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 04:15 GMT > Then the fool bragged about owning a 1D3 and a 500 f/4L IS. That one > sold quickly as well netting the idiot troll a tidy profit in the > process no doubt, despite the fact that the 1D3 had focusing problems > and people were dumping them cheaply. But that doesn't affect Rita > because he knows the secret to buying equipment for next to nothing. > "Buy low, sell high," he teaches us. LOL! Got the receipts, when we get together I'll gladly show them to you. Don't tell me that Canon sucks so much that one couldn't give it away. We both know Nikon rules! Now stop being so damn jealous. Like I said, one day you will get the good stuff if you hold your mouth open just right.
Rita
Annika1980 - 23 Dec 2007 14:33 GMT > > Then the fool bragged about owning a 1D3 and a 500 f/4L IS. That one > > sold quickly as well netting the idiot troll a tidy profit in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > LOL! Got the receipts, when we get together I'll gladly show them to you. Or you could simply just scan or photograph them. Oh that's right, you don't have a camera!
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 15:07 GMT >> LOL! Got the receipts, when we get together I'll gladly show them to >> you. > > Or you could simply just scan or photograph them. Oh that's right, you > don't have a camera! I could and I did, that doesn't mean that I'm going to post them. You'll get the opportunity to see the originals one day when you stop by for some beer and crabs.
Rita
Annika1980 - 23 Dec 2007 15:29 GMT > >> LOL! Got the receipts, when we get together I'll gladly show them to > >> you. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > get the opportunity to see the originals one day when you stop by for some > beer and crabs. Two things you should know about me .... I don't drink and I have no interest in seeing your crabs.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 15:37 GMT >> I could and I did, that doesn't mean that I'm going to post them. >> You'll get the opportunity to see the originals one day when you >> stop by for some beer and crabs. > > Two things you should know about me .... I don't drink and I have no > interest in seeing your crabs. Oh well, your loss. While you're a guest in my house I will still treat you good and show a little dignity towards you. I guess a Pepsi and prime rib will have to do. Like I said, I can back up my end, can you?
Rita
Annika1980 - 23 Dec 2007 15:58 GMT > > Two things you should know about me .... I don't drink and I have no > > interest in seeing your crabs. > > Oh well, your loss. While you're a guest in my house I will still treat you > good and show a little dignity towards you. I guess a Pepsi and prime rib > will have to do. Yuck! I'm a Diet Coke and NY Strip man myself. Had that exact thing at Outback last night, in fact.
>Like I said, I can back up my end, can you? I understand that you back up your end to a lot of guys. As for me, my mouth don't write checks my a.s can't cash.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 16:14 GMT >> Oh well, your loss. While you're a guest in my house I will still >> treat you good and show a little dignity towards you. I guess a >> Pepsi and prime rib will have to do. > > Yuck! I'm a Diet Coke and NY Strip man myself. > Had that exact thing at Outback last night, in fact. Ah, you like eating out of dumpsters. I'll treat you to an Outback dinner and have a salad. I can't bring myself to eat that garbage Outback.
>> Like I said, I can back up my end, can you? > > I understand that you back up your end to a lot of guys. > As for me, my mouth don't write checks my a.s can't cash. I believe you, especially when you always have a mouthful of manly goodness. I always thought you liked the North American White Snake.
Rita
Neil Harrington - 23 Dec 2007 16:51 GMT >>> If I had known Nikon was going to be such bastards and punish me >>> like this I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yes, but Ken Rockwell probably bought his. He didn't have to wait in > line at the rental counter like the idiot troll. Ken Rockwell said he did buy his, online as he buys everything else I believe. Rita buys 'em the same way as far as I know. Ken got his order in very early and that's probably the difference.
> Ever wonder why Rita > always brags on equipment he supposedly owns and then supposedly gets > rid of it? It all started with the much ballyhooed Nikon Noct 58mm f/ > 1.4. A lens so perfect that Rita just had to sell it. The Noct was f/1.2 -- and Rita said it sold for a very good price.
> Then the fool bragged about owning a 1D3 and a 500 f/4L IS. That one > sold quickly as well netting the idiot troll a tidy profit in the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > multimillionaire yachtsman I know near Brisbane. It's a real doozy as > well. Well, I don't endorse the "18 month rule" but then our approach to these things is very different. Rita apparently buys one or two high-end camera bodies and sells them as new ones come out. That suits Rita's purpose but wouldn't suit mine. I prefer to buy cameras when they've been out for quite some time, usually at or after the end of their production run, since their prices are then significantly lower and I presume any initial bugs in production will have been worked out. I have no interest in high-end models. And I have no particular interest in selling the ones I do buy, unless or until I've decided to switch to a different make or type, which has happened a very few times in the last 40+ years. Consequently I always have several cameras, which I enjoy (though right now I have far too many non-Nikons and have got to get a lot of 'em on eBay). Since I switched to Nikon a few years ago and am an old geezer, I'll probably never change brands again and will just keep accumulating Nikons as long as I have room for them.
Neil
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 22:41 GMT >> Yes, but Ken Rockwell probably bought his. He didn't have to wait in >> line at the rental counter like the idiot troll. > > Ken Rockwell said he did buy his, online as he buys everything else I > believe. Rita buys 'em the same way as far as I know. Ken got his > order in very early and that's probably the difference. Kenny boy gets his hardware donated to him. I got to stand in line like the rest of the world.
>> 1.4. A lens so perfect that Rita just had to sell it. > > The Noct was f/1.2 -- and Rita said it sold for a very good price. He knew that. He was just trying to trip me up. Like I didn't know my Noct was f/1.9
> Well, I don't endorse the "18 month rule" but then our approach to > these things is very different. Rita apparently buys one or two > high-end camera bodies and sells them as new ones come out. That > suits Rita's purpose but wouldn't suit mine. Let's see, in the equation the only variable is the dSLR body. The body is the only throwaway item in the equation. You can't even sell an almost new D2xs for more than $1,800. Considering that it was a $4,500 body less than 18-months ago, that sucks. That is a steep curve and a kick in the a.s in 18-months. There's even speculation that the 18-month rule needs to be revised and shortened to 16-months. The point of interest Bret always tries to neglect is the money is in the lens system. A decent lens system will last a lifetime and a half, unless you buy Canon. We all know what happened to the FD mount. Bastards! Buy decent lenses and they will always increase in value. That's why I buy any and every lens I can get my hands on and flip it for profit when I'm done playing with it. Of course there are keepers that I hold onto for personal use and probably never sell unless they lose their appeal to me or the profit margin is insanely high.
Rita
Neil Harrington - 24 Dec 2007 02:33 GMT >>> Yes, but Ken Rockwell probably bought his. He didn't have to wait in >>> line at the rental counter like the idiot troll. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Kenny boy gets his hardware donated to him. I thought he said he bought his equipment.
> I got to stand in line like the > rest of the world. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > 18-months ago, that sucks. That is a steep curve and a kick in the a.s in > 18-months. Just not an issue for me. I don't buy cameras planning to sell them later. In most cases I eventually do, but I buy them for the pleasure of owning and using them. I still have my D70s (my first Nikon DSLR) and have no plans to get rid of it ever. I wouldn't buy or sell a D2Xs in any case; it's just not my kind of camera.
> There's even speculation that the 18-month rule needs to be > revised and shortened to 16-months. The point of interest Bret always [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > keepers that I hold onto for personal use and probably never sell unless > they lose their appeal to me or the profit margin is insanely high. That's me, except for the insanely high profit margin part.
Neil
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 24 Dec 2007 12:17 GMT >>> Ken Rockwell said he did buy his, online as he buys everything else >>> I believe. Rita buys 'em the same way as far as I know. Ken got his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I thought he said he bought his equipment. He also said that he doesn't make any money off of his website or from advertisers.
> Just not an issue for me. I don't buy cameras planning to sell them > later. In most cases I eventually do, but I buy them for the pleasure > of owning and using them. I still have my D70s (my first Nikon DSLR) > and have no plans to get rid of it ever. I wouldn't buy or sell a > D2Xs in any case; it's just not my kind of camera. Well, I used to feel the same way. I still love my old Nikon FE. Digital changed all of that. It defies logic and common sense these days to hold onto a dSLR more than 18-months due to severe deprecation. The dSLR now falls into the same category as other throwaway consumer electronics like the cell phone. Now if Canon and Nikon would introduce a modular body that can be upgraded by the user in the field. Kinda like a digital back.
>> There's even speculation that the 18-month rule needs to be >> revised and shortened to 16-months. The point of interest Bret [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > That's me, except for the insanely high profit margin part. That's anything over the traditional and very common 40% rate.
Rita
Neil Harrington - 24 Dec 2007 14:55 GMT >>>> Ken Rockwell said he did buy his, online as he buys everything else >>>> I believe. Rita buys 'em the same way as far as I know. Ken got his [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > He also said that he doesn't make any money off of his website or from > advertisers. I must have missed that.
>> Just not an issue for me. I don't buy cameras planning to sell them >> later. In most cases I eventually do, but I buy them for the pleasure [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > changed all of that. It defies logic and common sense these days to hold > onto a dSLR more than 18-months due to severe deprecation. Not as long as you still enjoy owning and using the camera, which I do. I don't care about depreciation. Now I might, if I were buying $5000 camera bodies. But I never have and probably never will, since I'm just not interested in those big heavy bombers.
If we were still back in the days of the early DSLRs of course it would be different. A friend of mine is into Canon gear, buys expensive stuff (any white lens is "expensive" to me), and when he switched from 35mm to digital his first DSLR was 3 megapixels. I believe the early Nikon DSLRs were 3 megapixels also (that was before I became a Nikon fanatic and I'm not really familiar with the early models). Now *that* is obviously limiting, without even considering the other technological advances. My friend makes large prints for local competitions, and the prints made from that first 3MP Canon were not at all satisfactory to my eye in terms of sharpness.
So in those early days I suppose it did make sense to get rid of the old bodies and buy new ones fairly often. But it seems to me that the curve of technological advance has flattened considerably in recent years, and there's much less need to upgrade regularly today. I love my D80 but could easily make do with my old D70s if I had to without feeling terribly deprived.
> The dSLR now > falls into the same category as other throwaway consumer electronics like [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > That's anything over the traditional and very common 40% rate. I don't expect ever to make a profit on any camera, or come close to breaking even. I never have yet, and I've bought and sold an awful lot of cameras.
*Lenses* may be a different story. I still have a lot of Minolta Maxxum lenses, a few of them very desirable today to Sony DSLR owners. I have a Minolta 135mm f/2.8 that I bought used but mint for about $80, it's fairly rare and I've seen this lens sell for over $300 on eBay. But generally speaking I don't expect to make any money on lenses either -- I just won't lose as much as I will on the bodies. But I don't look at this sort of thing as a business.
Neil
default - 24 Dec 2007 22:23 GMT > I don't expect ever to make a profit on any camera, or come close to > breaking even. I never have yet, and I've bought and sold an awful lot of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > lose as much as I will on the bodies. But I don't look at this sort of > thing as a business. Rita is exactly right about getting rid of digital bodies on-time. It is not always exactly 18 months though. Up to the announcement of the replacement model for you body, you can sell it for a significant fraction of the full retail price, possibly up to 80%. Within a week of the announcement of the replacement model, the used prices fall quickly as the market suddenly gets many used ones. Then it is too late.
The most important part of "buy low, sell high" is "buy low". You have to make the money on the purchase, not the sale. If you were really shrewd and lucky in the purchase then you can sell it after using it for 18 months or so of having a current camera for close to your purchase price and the camera has cost you next to nothing. Then you can buy the new one which won't cost much more, or even less than your old one and still get to use a current camera. You always get to use a current camera body without much additional cash outlay.
This is even more so with lenses. They often sell for 80-90% of the price of new _in your area_. This seems attractive to buyers since they don't have to pay taxes on the used lens and most don't want to deal with shipping.
However there are much better prices available for those willing to shop around. Canon USA refurbished lenses, which I find to be better than new, sell at Adorama for almost half what lenses cost here in the big box stores. This means that when I am done with a lens, I can easily sell it for enough to cover the cost of the lens, hood, shipping and taxes. Fluctuating currency rates, particularly the very low US dollar and finding the cheapest shipping make this a good deal. There is no duty or excise on imported camera equipment here, just sales tax. Used lenses here still seem to sell based on a fraction of the current local store prices which Canon hasn't adjusted. Sigma lenses seem to lose value in the used market a lot faster though. It makes financial sense to by Canon branded lenses.
This makes digital photography almost free other than the loss of interest, opportunity and inflation on the money you have tied up in whatever you presently own.
Neil Harrington - 25 Dec 2007 21:35 GMT >> I don't expect ever to make a profit on any camera, or come close to >> breaking even. I never have yet, and I've bought and sold an awful lot of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > announcement of the replacement model, the used prices fall quickly as the > market suddenly gets many used ones. Then it is too late. You may be right, but I'm just not interested in selling any bodies except those from camera brands or types I've abandoned.
Neil
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 25 Dec 2007 13:36 GMT > *Lenses* may be a different story. I still have a lot of Minolta > Maxxum lenses, a few of them very desirable today to Sony DSLR [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on lenses either -- I just won't lose as much as I will on the > bodies. But I don't look at this sort of thing as a business. Clean them up and dump them. There's no sense in warehousing equipment you aren't and probably will never use again. Convert them unwanted lenses to a nice new Nikkor that you'll use almost every day.
Rita
Ockham's Razor - 25 Dec 2007 15:52 GMT > > *Lenses* may be a different story. I still have a lot of Minolta > > Maxxum lenses, a few of them very desirable today to Sony DSLR [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > aren't and probably will never use again. Convert them unwanted lenses to a > nice new Nikkor that you'll use almost every day. The 14-24 must be a fine lens. Anyone got any info about the 17-55 2.8?
 Signature With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 26 Dec 2007 00:27 GMT >> Clean them up and dump them. There's no sense in warehousing >> equipment you aren't and probably will never use again. Convert [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The 14-24 must be a fine lens. Anyone got any info about the 17-55 > 2.8? The 14-24/2.8 is going to be a sweet lens. I don't particularly care for it because there are no provisions for a filter. I'll be sticking with my 17-35/2.8. The 17-55/2.8 is a DX lens and probably should be avoided. Get a 17-35/2.8
Rita
Neil Harrington - 25 Dec 2007 21:23 GMT >> *Lenses* may be a different story. I still have a lot of Minolta >> Maxxum lenses, a few of them very desirable today to Sony DSLR [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you > aren't and probably will never use again. Right -- however, I'm in no hurry to dump them. One or two like the 135/2.8 have appreciated considerably and may appreciate more, since Sony as far as I know does not make an equivalent fixed-focal-length lens. Others like some wide-angle zooms, fisheye etc. aren't so attractive today because they won't deliver the wide angle on Sony's present line, but will when and if Sony brings out a full-frame model. The others I'll sell as I get time to do so.
> Convert them unwanted lenses to a > nice new Nikkor that you'll use almost every day. Yes, but the nice new Nikkors I want I've been buying anyway. I don't need the money from selling these lenses.
I *do* wish I'd sold all those Minolta bodies when I could still have gotten a good price for them. They're all about mint and in the original boxes, but probably won't bring much now.
Neil
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 26 Dec 2007 00:27 GMT >> Convert them unwanted lenses to a >> nice new Nikkor that you'll use almost every day. > > Yes, but the nice new Nikkors I want I've been buying anyway. I don't > need the money from selling these lenses. True, but the point is to never leave unwanted money on the table. Make it work for you in new equipment or in some type of investment. Give it to your grandchildren.
> I *do* wish I'd sold all those Minolta bodies when I could still have > gotten a good price for them. They're all about mint and in the > original boxes, but probably won't bring much now. Probably true, but you never know. Then again, since they are film bodies you can still have a great time with them. The type of film you put in them only limits you.
Rita
Neil Harrington - 26 Dec 2007 01:13 GMT >> I *do* wish I'd sold all those Minolta bodies when I could still have >> gotten a good price for them. They're all about mint and in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > them > only limits you. I'm through with film forever. Cannot imagine any circumstances in which I'd go back, even occasionally. It breaks my heart that I'll have no further use for my magnificent Durst A300 (autofocus with 50/2.8 EL Nikkor), but there you are. I should have listened to my friend who advised me to go 100% digital and sell all my 35mm stuff a few years ago.
Neil
PixelPix - 23 Dec 2007 04:18 GMT > >>> Thanks! It almost makes me wish I didn't sell the old Mk III. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Neil But Nikon is probably delivering the left handed ones first. lol ;)
Neil Harrington - 23 Dec 2007 16:52 GMT >>>>> Thanks! It almost makes me wish I didn't sell the old Mk III. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > But Nikon is probably delivering the left handed ones first. lol ;) <guffaw!>
Yes, that may be the explanation.
Neil
cmyk - 23 Dec 2007 19:56 GMT > There's no surprise here! It seems these are great times to be a Nikon > shooter or a Canon shooter with an adapter. How can Canon justify putting [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Rita Maybe the comparison should have been between the Canon 14mm f/2.8 and the Nikon 14mm f/2.8, or between the Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM and the Nikon 14-24mm G (at least where their ranges overlap).
If you think the Canon 14mm prime is bad, the Nikon 14mm prime is even worse! See: http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/index.php
Cheers
 Signature cmyk
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2007 22:38 GMT >> There's no surprise here! It seems these are great times to be a >> Nikon shooter or a Canon shooter with an adapter. How can Canon [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and the Nikon 14mm f/2.8, or between the Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM > and the Nikon 14-24mm G (at least where their ranges overlap). Even with the 14-24/2.8 Nikkor having the handicap of being a zoom it still is far superior to both versions of the 16-35/2.8 and the 14/2.8.
> If you think the Canon 14mm prime is bad, the Nikon 14mm prime is > even worse! See: http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/index.php Yep, Nikon's 14/2.8 is a piece of crap, there's no disputing that. The issue here is a Nikkor being crippled by being a zoom lens that costs less money still beats a prime costing considerably more.
Rita
Paul Furman - 23 Dec 2007 23:01 GMT >> There's no surprise here! It seems these are great times to be a Nikon >> shooter or a Canon shooter with an adapter. How can Canon justify [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If you think the Canon 14mm prime is bad, the Nikon 14mm prime is even > worse! See: http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/index.php That site rates the $1400 Nikon 14 better than the $1800 Canon. The review complains about the Nikon & offers alternatives but they haven't tested any primes and the zooms are all cropped frame. I have a Sigma 12-24 full frame and it has some nice qualities: low distortion, even center to corner performance, etc but razor sharpness is not one of it's features. I also have a 20mm/2.8 & it's not all that exciting. The 16/2.8 is great but it's a fisheye. The 18mm rectilinear isn't that great from reviews I've read. The thing is, it just is not easy designing a wide lens for full frame. Even for APS I've considered the 14/2.8... it's 'only' $800 used :-)
cmyk - 23 Dec 2007 23:23 GMT >> If you think the Canon 14mm prime is bad, the Nikon 14mm prime is even worse! See: http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/index.php > > That site rates the $1400 Nikon 14 better than the $1800 Canon. That doesn't seem to square with their statements: "Interestingly, the Canon 14mm f/2.8L ($1800) would appear to outperform (by a slim margin) only the Nikon 14mm f/2.8 ($1420). Both of these rather expensive primes are seemingly outpaced by each of the four zooms we included in this report."
Cheers
 Signature cmyk
Tony Polson - 23 Dec 2007 23:28 GMT >That site rates the $1400 Nikon 14 better than the $1800 Canon. The >review complains about the Nikon & offers alternatives but they haven't >tested any primes and the zooms are all cropped frame. The Sigma 14mm is a surprisingly good alternative.
Paul Furman - 24 Dec 2007 02:01 GMT >> That site rates the $1400 Nikon 14 better than the $1800 Canon. The >> review complains about the Nikon & offers alternatives but they haven't >> tested any primes and the zooms are all cropped frame. > > The Sigma 14mm is a surprisingly good alternative. Ah, thanks for pointing that out.
http://www.bythom.com/14lens.htm "Nikkor 14mm f/2.8D. Much more expensive than the Sigmas. And frankly, I don't see enough difference to justify the cost difference. The Nikkor does seem to have less problems with contrast control than the Sigma, though the problem isn't completely gone. Optically, I don't see much to distinguish the two other than a slightly warmer color out of the Sigma."
And Bjørn Rørslett gives the lens his highest rating with some reservations. Granted he's a Nikon worshiper, he's still real picky. http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_wide.html
If I can get a used Nikkor for $800 that seems a bit better than the Sigma... or maybe not... I'm looking into it. I would like a really nice super-wide and plan to go full frame at some point, anyways it would be useful for APS though not for the new price.
Tony Polson - 24 Dec 2007 12:38 GMT >>> That site rates the $1400 Nikon 14 better than the $1800 Canon. The >>> review complains about the Nikon & offers alternatives but they haven't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Ah, thanks for pointing that out. You're welcome. As you are probably aware, I am not a Sigma fan, but I was impressed with the 14mm. I also got very good results with the Sigma 15-30mm EX zoom, which could provide a low cost alternative to the 14-24mm Nikkor. However, if the early tests of the Nikkor are a true indication of its optical quality, it could be one of Nikon's best ever lenses.
>http://www.bythom.com/14lens.htm >"Nikkor 14mm f/2.8D. Much more expensive than the Sigmas. And frankly, I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >super-wide and plan to go full frame at some point, anyways it would be >useful for APS though not for the new price. With any luck, there will be a few 14mm Nikkors coming onto the used market once the 14-24mm starts selling in volume. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Max Perl - 24 Dec 2007 13:37 GMT >>>> That site rates the $1400 Nikon 14 better than the $1800 Canon. The >>>> review complains about the Nikon & offers alternatives but they haven't [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > market once the 14-24mm starts selling in volume. You might be > pleasantly surprised. We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It would require the mirror to be locked up.....without draining the battery. The the LCD could be used as viewfinder. Never heard people complain about their biogon's.......?
Tony Polson - 24 Dec 2007 15:55 GMT >We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It would >require the mirror to be locked up.....without draining the battery. The the >LCD could be used as viewfinder. Never heard people complain about >their biogon's.......? It seems that all newly announced DSLRs have the Live View feature.
So all we need is mirror lock-up, as you say!
Paul Furman - 24 Dec 2007 16:37 GMT >> We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It would >> require the mirror to be locked up.....without draining the battery. The the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So all we need is mirror lock-up, as you say! Apparently the D3 doesn't do live view with mirror lockup. Odd.
Max Perl - 25 Dec 2007 00:23 GMT >>> We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It >>> would [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Apparently the D3 doesn't do live view with mirror lockup. Odd. It must be a mechanical feature to lockup the mirror.....and Nikon must have decided that this feature is not needed......compared to the cost for making such a feature. It also requires someone to make such a lens........the old Nikkor 21mm could be used and maybe also some Voigtländer/Cosina lenses. Does a Biogon exist for the Leica M? With mirror lockup......a lot of rangefinder lenses may be used with the right adapter. But this will of course be a low volume product.
By the way.....maybe another topic.....but I think this product is quite nice......if you have a LF camera which takes Graflock backs. A funny way to make panorama pictures using LF lenses with your tiny DSLR.......or just utilize the full control of the image......macro etc.
http://www.enjoyyourcamera.com/Lens-Accessories/Lens-Mount-Adapter/Nikon-Adapter s/Nikon-Adaptor-for-Large-Format::529.html?XTCsid=5d11ecbfa5b7126299de0b652f4f8f 21
Paul Furman - 25 Dec 2007 01:39 GMT >>>> We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It >>>> would [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > right adapter. > But this will of course be a low volume product. I think Tony's mention of the issue with non-retro-focus lens problems with oblique angles on digital sensors may be the reason. I just thought that such an expensive pro camera should have that simple feature but it probably doesn't make sense.
> By the way.....maybe another topic.....but I think this product is quite > nice......if you have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.enjoyyourcamera.com/Lens-Accessories/Lens-Mount-Adapter/Nikon-Adapter s/Nikon-Adaptor-for-Large-Format::529.html?XTCsid=5d11ecbfa5b7126299de0b652f4f8f 21 The limitation with that is large format lenses are long focal lengths. Neat idea though.
Max Perl - 25 Dec 2007 11:03 GMT >>>>> We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It >>>>> would [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > The limitation with that is large format lenses are long focal lengths. > Neat idea though. Yes.....you have to use the panorama function and take a number of pictures and stitch them together to get a wide angle image. A 90mm lens is easy to get......but you can get at least a 65mm lens......
Paul Furman - 25 Dec 2007 17:30 GMT >>>>>> We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It >>>>>> would [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > and stitch them together to get a wide angle image. > A 90mm lens is easy to get......but you can get at least a 65mm lens...... Ah, OK I see how that makes sense. I have a 30mm medium format fisheye and made a rig to do that with, though I'm not sure I'd have the need to stitch a huge fisheye poster... I use it more for tilting the focus plane.
Max Perl - 25 Dec 2007 19:01 GMT >>>>>>> We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It >>>>>>> would [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > made a rig to do that with, though I'm not sure I'd have the need to > stitch a huge fisheye poster... I use it more for tilting the focus plane. Yes the adapter is made so you can take a number of images utilizing the big image circle of the LF lens. Then you do not need to think about the nodal point etc. The stitch program will be happy I think :-)
You could also use the shift function to get 2 rows of 3 or 4 images......to get a double high panorama image.....like people use the 28/3.5 PC-Nikkor. The problem is to get the time to play with all these possibilities........
:-) Tony Polson - 25 Dec 2007 13:03 GMT >Does a Biogon exist for the Leica M? The Carl Zeiss ZM range of lenses for Leica M mount includes a 15mm f/2.8 Biogon, two 21mm Biogons (an f/2.8 based on the design for the Contax G Series, and a 21mm f/4.5 based on the classic 21mm lens for the Contarex), a 25mm f/2.8, a 28mm f/2.8 and a 35mm f/2.
All Biogons. Take your pick!
Max Perl - 25 Dec 2007 18:55 GMT >>Does a Biogon exist for the Leica M? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > All Biogons. Take your pick! Could be interresting to see how the 15/2.8 handles on a M8. Is there any trace of CA in the corners.....etc. Else the old classic 21 mm for the Contarex is nice I think......also as a collectors item.
Tony Polson - 25 Dec 2007 19:31 GMT >Could be interresting to see how the 15/2.8 handles on a M8. Is there any >trace of CA in the corners.....etc. I haven't seen a ZM 15mm Biogon, let alone tried one. Nor have I tried a ZM 85mm f/2 Sonnar. But I have tried all the other ZM lenses on an M8 body, including some comparative tests with Leica lenses of the same focal lengths. The ZM lenses are outstanding performers on the M8, and they have no need of the Leica 6-bit coding. I expect the ZM 15mm and 85mm lenses will be equally impressive.
>Else the old classic 21 mm for the Contarex >is nice I think......also as a collectors item. Until 2007, it was the best 21mm lens for Leica M - obviously, it has to be used with an adapter. The new Carl Zeiss ZM C Sonnar 21mm f/4.5 is a modern interpretation of this classic design, and not only does it display near-zero distortion, but it is sharp right out to the corners, even wide open. An outstanding achievement. For me, this is easily the best new lens of 2007.
Max Perl - 25 Dec 2007 22:25 GMT >>Could be interresting to see how the 15/2.8 handles on a M8. Is there any >>trace of CA in the corners.....etc. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > corners, even wide open. An outstanding achievement. For me, this is > easily the best new lens of 2007. It has always been pleasure to turn the focus ring on a Contarex lens.
On my D2x I have not until now seen a super wide which did not have any trace of CA in the corners. E.g. if you have some trees with small branches and leaves against the sky. Here you can always find some trace of e.g. red/blue CA. We will see if Zeiss makes a biogon with Nikon mount.
Tony Polson - 26 Dec 2007 00:02 GMT >>>Could be interresting to see how the 15/2.8 handles on a M8. Is there any >>>trace of CA in the corners.....etc. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >It has always been pleasure to turn the focus ring on a Contarex lens. Probably the best made SLR ever!
>On my D2x I have not until now seen a super wide which did not have >any trace of CA in the corners. E.g. if you have some trees with small >branches and leaves against the sky. Here you can always find some >trace of e.g. red/blue CA. We will see if Zeiss makes a biogon with >Nikon mount. We live in interesting times ... :-)
Max Perl - 26 Dec 2007 11:27 GMT >>>>Could be interresting to see how the 15/2.8 handles on a M8. Is there >>>>any [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Probably the best made SLR ever! Maybe......they just selected the wrong type of shutter? The Nikon F was more successful......and they came out same year.....1959?
>>On my D2x I have not until now seen a super wide which did not have >>any trace of CA in the corners. E.g. if you have some trees with small [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > We live in interesting times ... :-) Yes.....but the Zeiss 50/1.4 was not 100% convincing. At least not the test results I have seen. So I still keep my Nikkor 50/2 and 50/1.8 :-)
Scott W - 24 Dec 2007 17:47 GMT > >We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It would > >require the mirror to be locked up.....without draining the battery. The the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So all we need is mirror lock-up, as you say! Not just a mirror lock-up but a mechanical one that does not take power to keep up.
But even if you have that a non-retro-focus wide-angle lens on a DSLR might not give good results. Lieca had to stuggle with this a fair bit.
Scott
Chris Malcolm - 25 Dec 2007 11:42 GMT In rec.photo.digital Tony Polson <tp@nospam.net> wrote:
>>We need a biogon-design to get a really good wide-angle I think. It would >>require the mirror to be locked up.....without draining the battery. The the >>LCD could be used as viewfinder. Never heard people complain about >>their biogon's.......?
> It seems that all newly announced DSLRs have the Live View feature.
> So all we need is mirror lock-up, as you say! It would be wise to automate the mirror lock up with such lenses as well :-)
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
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