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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / September 2007

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seriously..

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k - 21 Sep 2007 06:14 GMT
the amount of rubbish posted here is astonishing!

it certainly seems some people spend way too much time composing nonsense,
and one wonders why they'd want to draw attention to the fact that they are
largely without a purpose in life.

I'd be kinda ashamed to be known for merely being a prolific poster

unless it's as was predicted, digital would kill photography, and this is
all that remains of a discussion group about such things

k
Pete D - 21 Sep 2007 07:02 GMT
> the amount of rubbish posted here is astonishing!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> k

The ball is clearly in your court then, post your magic!

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

k - 21 Sep 2007 12:44 GMT
| > the amount of rubbish posted here is astonishing!
| >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
|
| The ball is clearly in your court then, post your magic!

got no replies on this the first time I posted it.. maybe it was missed,
maybe no one gave a damn:
"Seam Carving" for content-aware image resizing

(Wednesday, 22 August 2007  06:10 GMT)
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082201seamcarvingimageresizing.asp

and a demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-SSu3tJ3ns

or

<http://www.news.com/Photos+Camera+makers+bring+niches+into+focus/2300-1041
_3-6208134.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e703>

some new, some old.. some simple adaptations but maybe more of interest,
some *ideas* for people

k

new display tech

http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/19337/?a=f

"Photonic crystals are being used by a Toronto startup to create commercial
devices that offer better color and resolution than other flexible
displays.
Scientists in Canada have used photonic crystals to create a novel type of
flexible electronic-paper display. Unlike other such devices, the
photonic-crystal display is the first with pixels that can be individually
tuned to any color.

"You get much brighter and more-intense colors," says André Arsenault, a
chemist at the University of Toronto and cofounder of Opalux, a
Toronto-based company commercializing the photonic-crystal technology,
called P-Ink.

With P-Ink, it's a different story. "We can get 100 percent of the area to
be red," Arsenault says. This is because each pixel can be tuned to create
any color in the visible spectrum. "That's a three-times increase in the
brightness of colors," he says. "It makes a huge difference."

"It's a spectacular innovation," says Edzer Huitema, chief technology
officer of the Dutch firm Polymer Vision, based in Eindhoven. Even
traditional screens, such as cathode-ray tubes, LCDs, and plasma displays,
use three or even four differently colored pixels to generate color. "It's
a major limitation for all color-display technologies," Huitema says. When
the color of each pixel is controlled, not only does the color quality
increase, but the resolution should also improve by a factor of three.

Arsenault predicts that Opalux will have the first products on the market
within two years, probably in the form of advertising displays. But, he
says, it will be a long while before P-Ink will be in a position to
completely replace traditional displays. "The caveat is that we are not at
video speeds," Arsenault says.

this one looks like a keeper! :)

Even if they don't achieve high refresh rates, colour display that can be
manufactured to huge sizes, use little power (and at times NONE) and can
reproduce colours like this - the benefits to photographers editing images
would be awesome!

Maybe not at the editing stage, I'd hate to have to wait a second to see
where my dragged mouse would appear, but on a second 'preview' monitor it
would be great.

bluetooth wireless camera synching:
http://news.com.com/2300-1039_3-6196585-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

well those are my contributions for today..

k
N - 21 Sep 2007 12:56 GMT
> got no replies on this the first time I posted it.. maybe it was missed,
> maybe no one gave a damn:

Probably because most Windows users would use NTFS for their file systems.
Noons - 21 Sep 2007 09:42 GMT
> the amount of rubbish posted here is astonishing!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> unless it's as was predicted, digital would kill photography, and this is
> all that remains of a discussion group about such things

dude, your turn: post something.
Of your own, we got enough brown-nosing
coming in from x-posts.
k - 21 Sep 2007 11:50 GMT
| > the amount of rubbish posted here is astonishing!
| >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
| Of your own, we got enough brown-nosing
| coming in from x-posts.

well my posts of the past re freeware go unnoticed most of the time,

pointers to things like the 95,000 fps digicam ignored..

tech articles about cd/dvd media scoffed

well lets give it a go then.

caching is bad

I was looking at hard drive space and my file allocation table today and
thought since we're all using computers, and computers are a part of
digital imageing, and digital imaging is a part of photography then this
may be relevant (and possibly useful info ;).

I have a Windows 98 box for *most* of my main computing and from time to
time I run a little low on space before I copy the bigger files off to
another drive, but I decided to see how much free space I could gain if I
cleared off the *little* files.

why 98?  coz I know it.  Still learning win2k, learned pre 80 on punchcards,
learned basic, learned and programmed in unix on the plato network in 82,
abandoned PC's for a bit, came back to win 3.11 and do, learned 95, 95b, 98
and SE and really, I've had enough and am happy to stick to 98se and 2k..
but on with the story

What got me going on this was an awareness that FAT32, the particular file
allocation table (FAT) structure win98 uses has some features which waste
space.  you see, each cluster on a hard drive formatted to fat 32 can
contain only *one* file.  A table at the beginning of a drive records where
each file is, or if a file is bigger than 32kb, which clusters the file is
spread across.

from the microsoft site:
"The maximum possible number of clusters on a volume using the FAT32 file
system is 268,435,445. With a maximum of 32 KB per cluster with space for
the file allocation table (FAT), this equates to a maximum disk size of
approximately 8 terabytes (TB). "

so what is the problem?  well a 1kb file is going to put on your hard drive
and it will occupy 32kb of space.  Not an issue if your PC never chats to
the internet, but unfortunately, the net has a habit of scattering all
manner of dribble across a computer, not all of which is cleared out even
when you ask a computer to clear it.

I thought I'd do a quick check to see how much space I was wasting and so
did a search for those horrid 1 x 1 pixel gifs we know as web bugs,
starting the search for *.gif 'at most' 1kb in size

I found 2261 of them.  that's 72 mb of hard drive real estate being hogged
by a mere 2Mb of data!  70 mb wasted!

I continued my search and found 168 jpegs under 1kb and 2625 text files
(search *.txt) under 1mb

then I did a search in temporary internet folder in windows AFTER clearing
it using the tool provided and the search maxed out at 10,000, most of them
Ca(xxxxxx) files which contained little or nothing at all so I searched for
them (search Ca*) and came up with 10,000 (the quantity limit of my search)
so they got deleted and I searched again
another 10,000
..and another 10,000*
delete another 10,000
9632 remaining..
delete them

searched some more and found a whole raft of files named in brackets like
this [46] so I
searched for [*.*

3108 files (deleted)

find another 900 by searching C:

search C: *.gif under 1kb (another 275)
2010 cookies under 1kb deleted..

how much space have I freed?  well I've deleted over 61,000 files that were
a mere 61 mb of 'data' but which occupied almost 2Gb of space on my hard
drive!  And none of those files were critical in any way, shape or form..

more on FAT32 - if you have a small hard drive, your clusters will be
smaller, bigger drives = bigger clusters

Cluster size Partition Size
2 KB         < 260 MB
4 KB         260 MB - 8 GB
8 KB         8 GB - 16 GB
16 KB        16 GB - 32 GB
32 KB        32 GB<

Apples using OSX as far as I can tell use a file allocation structure
similar to FAT32 or the older windows equivalent FAT16 (with 16kb clusters)
more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_File_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table

NTFS (windows 2000, XP and later) have a cluster size of 4kb, so a lot less
is wasted when there is lots of small files.

Of course the problem is not simply limited to teeny files but also files
which creep slightly over the cluster size - a 33kb file will occupy the
default 32kb cluster PLUS another cluster for the missing 1kb.  a waste..

Solution?  ZIP!~ :)

Any files not used regularly can be shackled together and compressed,
turning them into one big file and eliminating the wasted space - free
tools for this include 7zip (which has very high compression rates and can
write all manner of algorithms AND mac/unix users can use it) from
www.7zip.org

and if you find it's images you're zipping but feel that will cause
problems later when you want to view them, CDisplay
<http://www.geocities.com/davidayton/CDisplay> which can view images while
they are zipped, is free!
(Loads JPEG, PNG and static GIF images which are automatically ordered and
presented for viewing one at a time or two at a time. The images may be in
a zip, rar, ace or tar archive file - no need to decompress before
reading.)

just doing a search now for files under 4kb is size

"The number of files found exceeds the maximum allowed(10,000), please
refine your search"

sigh

k
Noons - 21 Sep 2007 14:15 GMT
> well my posts of the past re freeware go unnoticed most of the time,

maybe so, maybe not.  I got onto some after you
mentioned it.

> pointers to things like the 95,000 fps digicam ignored..

that one I missed!

> tech articles about cd/dvd media scoffed

same

> caching is bad

ya telling me?

> I have a Windows 98 box for *most* of my main computing and from time to
> time I run a little low on space before I copy the bigger files off to
> another drive, but I decided to see how much free space I could gain if I
> cleared off the *little* files.

Why do I get the feeling you got a sector issue coming up?
:-)

> and SE and really, I've had enough and am happy to stick to 98se and 2k..

same here.  my kid's pcs are all 2K pro and mine is xp pro
only because I need that for work, otherwise it'd be still 2k...

> space.  you see, each cluster on a hard drive formatted to fat 32 can
> contain only *one* file.

Bingo!
Man!, been there...

> the internet, but unfortunately, the net has a habit of scattering all
> manner of dribble across a computer, not all of which is cleared out even
> when you ask a computer to clear it.

aye...

> I found 2261 of them.  that's 72 mb of hard drive real estate being hogged
> by a mere 2Mb of data!  70 mb wasted!

aye!...

> Ca(xxxxxx) files which contained little or nothing at all so I searched for
> them (search Ca*) and came up with 10,000 (the quantity limit of my search)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 9632 remaining..
> delete them

Heh!  If you printed with a HP8750 or scanned with
Nikonscan, you'd have a similar problem of shitloads
of "0" length files in TEMP...

> Cluster size Partition Size
> 2 KB         < 260 MB
> 4 KB         260 MB - 8 GB
> 8 KB         8 GB - 16 GB
> 16 KB        16 GB - 32 GB
> 32 KB        32 GB<

NTFS will do 4K default for larger drives, but
even on the largest it still allows you to
pop out of default and go to 512 only when formatting
512 slows down large file access, but it
works fine for a C: or D: software only drive.

I put my C: and D: drive with all the software
and internet work area as well as TEMP, all
on 512 sector size.  All my photo drives,
currently P: and V:, are formatted with sector
size of 32K.  That stops NTFS from compressing
them but I don't care: jpg is already crunched
and tiff is always compressed in my system:
compressing twice won't improve things, so who
cares?  And image files are much larger than 32K,
so little is wasted.

All my other drives are at default 4K.

This way I always get very reasonable capacity
use and I don't have to worry too much about
wasting space.

But you can only do this with NTFS and that
assumes 2K or XP...

> Apples using OSX as far as I can tell use a file allocation structure
> similar to FAT32 or the older windows equivalent FAT16 (with 16kb clusters)
> more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_File_Systemhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wik
i/File_Allocation_Table

>
> NTFS (windows 2000, XP and later) have a cluster size of 4kb, so a lot less
> is wasted when there is lots of small files.

Actually, Apples being "unix" based will use the 16k more
effectively than anything else: their file system allows
for multiple files per "sector".

> Solution?  ZIP!~ :)

See my setup above for an idea.
Works only with 2K or XP, though.

> "The number of files found exceeds the maximum allowed(10,000), please
> refine your search"
>
> sigh

LOL!
Indeed...
D-Mac - 21 Sep 2007 21:19 GMT
Snipped

> just doing a search now for files under 4kb is size
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> k

With hard drive cost for SATA drives at less than $2 per gigabyte (210 Gig
drive) your issue with drive space is largely worth about a buck in
financial value.

Windows 98 was never a good OS. I much preferred the implementation of
windows 3.0 for 286 PCs without using a page file. Fast and neat.

I also liked my Kodak Retina 1A. It was a really nice camera... Right up to
where I discovered Voiglander's had a built in rangefinder. Then I thought
that was a great camera... Right up to the day I sold my EH Holden with a
Chevy V8 shoe horned into it to buy a Mamiya C33. Then I thought that was
Nirvana.

Today I use a Pentium 4, PC with 4 gig of RAM, a Striped RAID of 1.5
terabytes and a 28" widescreen LCD to process images from digital cameras
that cost me more in 3 years than my total expenditure on film cameras and
darkroom gear in 30 years.

Times change. Instead of guarding against graffiti vandals attacking my
studio window, today I have half a dozen trolls dogging me like a bitch on
heat. Instead of being able to run the bastards down and foot them up the
arse, today they hide behind anonymous names and concealed locations.

What I'm saying K is that without keeping abreast with current technology,
you are in danger of becoming a fossil.

Windows XP (SP1) is the most stable OS Microsoft has produced thus far.
Pentium 4 chips are as cheap as chips and so are 1 gig RAM sticks. You can
buy a PC in Woolworth without the screen for $500 which includes Windows
XP... Why would you stick with antique (by electronic standards) hardware
and bother yourself with disc space issues when you don't need to?

Maybe antique computers are your hobby? In that case, you're in the wrong
group. If you are financially compromised, I can relate to that but I'm
having a bit of a problem understanding your chase for space when for a few
dollars you can buy enough you'll never need to worry about it.

Doug
Pete D - 21 Sep 2007 21:44 GMT
> Snipped
>>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Doug

I bought a 320Gb drive a couple of months back and it cost me $105, that
makes the costing about 30c per Gb.

I guess also that many are using Win XP and NTFS and can use smaller cluster
sizes, the default size is 4kb but 512 bytes can also be used.
k - 22 Sep 2007 03:51 GMT
"D-Mac" <
| With hard drive cost for SATA drives at less than $2 per gigabyte (210 Gig
| drive) your issue with drive space is largely worth about a buck in
| financial value.

| I also liked my Kodak Retina 1A. It was a really nice camera... Right up to
| where I discovered Voiglander's had a built in rangefinder. Then I thought
| that was a great camera... Right up to the day I sold my EH Holden with a
| Chevy V8 shoe horned into it to buy a Mamiya C33. Then I thought that was
| Nirvana.

funny, I have a retina reflex,  and I sold the blad to buy back the mamiya
c330 I sold to BUY the blad.  GOt a shiny new fairlane too, rides like a
dream.. until the sensor which measured the incoming air temp went and the
car had to crawl home billowing black smoke - hooked up to the diagnostic
outlet and ran the program - 'no fault'.  a mechanic did the same .. also
'no fault'.  the component was realtively new and simply failed.  oh well,
600 dollars later and the car knows what the friggin air temp is now. lucky
though, if an internal globe had gone it would have been detected by the
Smart Security system, which would have shut down the EMU and the car would
not have been startable!  criminal in a country like oz where you can die in
a day from lack of water!

Next car Upgrade is a 1970 plymouth fury sitting in the drive awaiting a
refurbish.. 440 RB engine :)  I can work on those on the roadside.

| Today I use a Pentium 4, PC with 4 gig of RAM, a Striped RAID of 1.5
| terabytes and a 28" widescreen LCD to process images from digital cameras
| that cost me more in 3 years than my total expenditure on film cameras and
| darkroom gear in 30 years.

Me?  I have 3 P4's, 2 P3's and a handful of via microatx boxes setup for
various functions like a dedicated fileserver, a downloader a couple of game
machines, a print server .. one for image editing with the dual monitors
(19" widescreens are fine for me) and the 20"crt's , another machine for
video ripping/editing and audio work.  the test machine for software and
hardware fiddling - some interface over the KVM switch, some just lurk on
the network, accessed using Radmin.  The dedicated machine that hooks to all
the scanners (6 in total) runs this way.

Win 98?  well.. the A3  *FILM* scanner I use - 3 colour pulsed xenon (no
pissy cold cathode rubbish thanks!) does not talk to OS's newer than 98.
should I throw away a scanner that was worth over $30,000 in 98 just because
OS's have gotten prettier?

hmmmm, nope.

What of all my other specialist hardware?  the stuff you don't see in
normal, off the shelf, woolies branded PC's with the latest Microsoft®
offering.

| What I'm saying K is that without keeping abreast with current technology,
| you are in danger of becoming a fossil.

I know.

I uttered a warning to folks about striped RAID on an international photo
group some years back and was called an idiot.  I argued that it was
inherantly unsafe and suggested mirrored was better, but also asked why
imaging people were using raid rather than simply using another drive and
Synchbak to mirror the needed files - the reply was their IT gurus had
advised it was MUCH faster, and all digital imaging benefits from speed
right?  Fortunately a video edit guy jumped in and reinforced my warning.
Of course the fact that I was a tech for both video and photo in a rather
large college had little baring compared to their local IT guy.. but after a
few crashes they found out I was right.

| With hard drive cost for SATA drives at less than $2 per gigabyte (210 Gig
| drive) your issue with drive space is largely worth about a buck in
| financial value.

from time to time I post price/sive comparisons .. CD/DVD/DAT/DVDRAM (the
better optical backup media) /HDD's.  hard drives are down around 35-40c on
my last review.

but it's not a size issue (why is size so important to people? ;)  it's that
every stupid little file has the potential to cause corruption issues. 10
large files, 1,000,000 small ones.  and the OS likes to keep track of
files..

| Windows XP (SP1) is the most stable OS Microsoft has produced thus far.

and along with Vista®, one of the most intrusive and beligerant.

| Pentium 4 chips are as cheap as chips and so are 1 gig RAM sticks. You can
| buy a PC in Woolworth without the screen for $500 which includes Windows
| XP... Why would you stick with antique (by electronic standards) hardware
| and bother yourself with disc space issues when you don't need to?

too many files affects  search speed and  cataloguing (heaven halp the
Picassa user!)

| Maybe antique computers are your hobby? In that case, you're in the wrong
| group. If you are financially compromised, I can relate to that but I'm
| having a bit of a problem understanding your chase for space when for a few
| dollars you can buy enough you'll never need to worry about it.

I didn't paint the whole picture.  I do keep abreast of new tech, hence me
posting about Synchbak both here and elsewhere within days of it's release,
and irfanview, and .. well, lots of hardware and software.  Posting my speed
tests, irfanview batching Vs PS (years back now).  I run new PC's not old
ones, and my advice to the college I worked at that buying XP licenses was
*not* going to speed up operations went ignored until they began the
rollout, then of course they had to update EVERY machine at great expense,
only to discover the new machines with XP ran slower than the old machines
with 98.  My recommendation was to keep the 98 licenses and simply buy newer
machines.  Ever run 98 or 2k on a new machine?  blindingly fast :)  My wifes
cousin works at the UN headquarters.  At the time I was there we had a PII.
at the UN they were running win 3.11 on 386's.  it worked.

I also love the folks who use special rename progs.  Ever renamed in dos?
:)

My wifes cousin was across last weekend addressing a conference at my former
employers, he was astonished just how much the hackles went up when he was
taking them into new territory.. of course they were Important People he was
addressing (how dare he!) and him just a lowly director from the UK.  his
crime was suggesting using processes they'd never heard of or worse, old
processes.  silly man!

revisting this..
| Today I use a Pentium 4, PC with 4 gig of RAM, a Striped RAID of 1.5
| terabytes and a 28" widescreen LCD to process images from digital cameras
| that cost me more in 3 years than my total expenditure on film cameras and
| darkroom gear in 30 years.

yes I personally have a Hope RA4 machine and I still hand print b&w and
colour.  I shoot from 110 to 8x10.  and digital (for what it's best at).  I
actually have to work clean with a camera for the first time since aquiring
the digi.. for me running F1N's in the dust, the mud, the torrential
downpour of a tornado, this is a new and unwelcome thing.  I have to carry
spare batteries, I have to backup a lot more regularly..

want to hear something funny?  I just did a drive count - my *external*
backup HDD space for drives over 100Gb (who counts smaller ones these days)
now sits at 2.2 Tb !

Of course in 2 years time everyone will laugh at that! :)

If I contribute an article about SD's inherant risk over MMC's and other
media because of it's protected sector, inbuilt DRM protection, how do you
think folks will take it?

oh wait. i did that already

k
(sulking)

;)
Noons - 22 Sep 2007 05:02 GMT
> Of course in 2 years time everyone will laugh at that! :)

they already talking about 1Tb of solid state disk....
I'm seriously waiting for somone to come up with
the raided USB key of 500Gb, shouldn't take
much longer now.

:-)
Vintage Monk - 24 Sep 2007 01:39 GMT
> Times change. Instead of guarding against graffiti vandals attacking my
> studio window, today I have half a dozen trolls dogging me like a bitch on
> heat. Instead of being able to run the bastards down and foot them up the
> arse, today they hide behind anonymous names and concealed locations.

Ok this is a keeper, Doug has been able to turn a post about small files
hogging a hard drive into a reply about his pain of trolls dogging him.

What is the address of the studio? I would love for you to run me down
(hell, I wouldn't even move) and try and foot me in the arse.

You're such a loser Doug.
D-Mac - 24 Sep 2007 02:24 GMT
>> Times change. Instead of guarding against graffiti vandals attacking my
>> studio window, today I have half a dozen trolls dogging me like a bitch
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> You're such a loser Doug.

I just love people who are all piss and wind. You are supposed to have
plonked both my current addresses yet you still waste your breath replying
to me...
Vintage Monk - 24 Sep 2007 03:26 GMT
>>> Times change. Instead of guarding against graffiti vandals attacking my
>>> studio window, today I have half a dozen trolls dogging me like a bitch
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
> I just love people who are all piss and wind.

Is this the reason you love yourself so much?
Speaking of piss and wind why didn't you post your address as requested?

You are supposed to have
> plonked both my current addresses yet you still waste your breath replying
> to me...

Please show me where I said I had your current address plonked.
No you c.nt can you, poor Douggie, proved wrong  AGAIN
Noons - 24 Sep 2007 04:43 GMT
On Sep 24, 12:26 pm, Vintage Monk <themonkthemonk@themonks..com>
wrote:

> No you c.nt can you, poor Douggie, proved wrong  AGAIN

jeez dude, watch the spelling...
 
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