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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / September 2007

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landscapes and hyperfocal distance

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Troy Piggins - 07 Sep 2007 14:53 GMT
I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
focussing distances etc.  

I've been reading that the hyperfocal distance is where you focus
at a point and everything from half that distance to infinity is
acceptably focussed.  I got to thinking and I have a bunch of
questions...

Say I'm taking a photo of Brisbane's Casino from over the river
at Southbank.  Normally I would've just auto-focussed on the
building and let her rip, so to speak.  Is that what most of you
would do?

Or would you use the hyperfocal distance to get everything in the
depth of field?

Do you do that for nature landscapes?

Say the lens I'm using is 24mm at f/11.  On my 30D the hyperfocal
distance is 2.7m.  So if I manually focus at 2.7m, everything
from 1.35m away to infinity is in focus?  Is that how you would
do it?  Manually focus?  Is that accurate enough?

I have downloaded a freeware little program for my XDA that is a
depth of field calculator and gives the hyperfocal distance which
is handy and portable.  It is very similar to the one found
online here:

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Please offer your thoughts.

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Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

PixelPix - 07 Sep 2007 23:39 GMT
> I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
> my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> building and let her rip, so to speak.  Is that what most of you
> would do?

It depends if you have some foreground interest that needs to be in
focus also eg. a park bench, a section of the boardwalk or perhaps
even a boat.   If you have foreground elements like these, then
maximising DOF is important and hyperfocal focusing is the best
option.

If there is no foreground element that needs to be sharp, then
focusing on the building itself may be the better option.  Remember
when we talk about hyperfocal focusing, we refer to "acceptable"
sharpness.... there will still be a field of "best" sharpness and that
will always be at the point of focus.  So if there is no other image
element that needs to be sharp, then it is good to give the best
possible sharpness to our main point of interest.

> Do you do that for nature landscapes?

I include foreground elements in my landscapes the majority of the
time, so I am more often than not using hyperfocal focusing.

> Say the lens I'm using is 24mm at f/11.  On my 30D the hyperfocal
> distance is 2.7m.  So if I manually focus at 2.7m, everything
> from 1.35m away to infinity is in focus?  Is that how you would
> do it?  Manually focus?  Is that accurate enough?

Manual or autofocus is fine, just remember that most standard screens
are not designed for accurate manual focus these days.  In many cases
an "auto focus and recompose" technique is fine, as the DOF spead will
hide any small miss in focus.  Personally I often use a manual focus
Olympus lens and a dedicated manual focus screen.... but not all DSLR
variants have such luxury.

> I have downloaded a freeware little program for my XDA that is a
> depth of field calculator and gives the hyperfocal distance which
> is handy and portable.  It is very similar to the one found
> online here:
>
> http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

DOF Master is a great resource and IMHO everyone should have it
bookmarked.

Cheers

Rusty
http://www.pixelpix.com.au/gallery
Troy Piggins - 08 Sep 2007 00:20 GMT
* PixelPix is quoted & my replies are inline below :
>> I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
>> my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> element that needs to be sharp, then it is good to give the best
> possible sharpness to our main point of interest.

I see.  I hadn't appreciated the difference between "acceptable"
and "best".

>> Do you do that for nature landscapes?
>
> I include foreground elements in my landscapes the majority of the
> time, so I am more often than not using hyperfocal focusing.

Cool.  I'm glad to know it is used regularly.  I was thinking it
may be just a theoretical type phenomenon that you know is there,
but doesn't get used in practice.

>> Say the lens I'm using is 24mm at f/11.  On my 30D the hyperfocal
>> distance is 2.7m.  So if I manually focus at 2.7m, everything
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Olympus lens and a dedicated manual focus screen... but not all DSLR
> variants have such luxury.

Hmm.  So to autofocus, the only way you could do that in my
example above is to AF on something 2.7m away and recompose?  Or
to manual focus, would you use the distance markings on the focus
dial on the lens, or is that too inaccurate for this?  Or by
manual focus do you mean manually focus on something 2.7m away
and recompose, but you don't need to hold down the shutter button
as you would with AF?

>> I have downloaded a freeware little program for my XDA that is a
>> depth of field calculator and gives the hyperfocal distance which
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> DOF Master is a great resource and IMHO everyone should have it
> bookmarked.

I do.  And now I have a version I can carry with me always :)

Thanks for your tips Rusty.

Signature

Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

D_Mac - 08 Sep 2007 03:20 GMT
> * PixelPix is quoted & my replies are inline below :
>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
> always learning and appreciate feedback.

You do realize Troy, that Hyperfocal distance is a mythical location?
The presumption is that before and behind the subject can be made
sharp really means "less unsharp" than closer or further elements of
the picture. A couple of years ago I revisited the issue when I did my
first 100% digital wedding and discovered the charts I had been using
for 10 years with my Mamiya and 35mm cameras didn't work with a 1.6
crop camera.

The widest hyperfocal distance will be obtained with the smallest
sensor size. The conundrum in that is the largest sensors will yield
the most detail. Some yeas back, manufacturer's began dropping
distance scales from lens barrels. I presume now they did this because
DSLRs were arriving and they had broader distances where less of the
picture was unsharp.

In practice, a number of other elements will impact the sharpness of a
landscape. The most significant is the aperture. Once you get below
about F/12 with a 1.6 crop, a whole new set of variables surface. Not
the least being light fall off towards the edges and the phenomena of
losing sharpness as the aperture gets smaller. This itself varies with
the size of the sensor too.

An average quality lens on your camera (including "L" zoom lenses) in
the range suitable for landscapes will have a sweet spot at about F/
8.0 and begin to lose sharpness (and therefore definition) at about F/
12. By the time you get to F/22 there will be noticeable light fall
off at the edges and considerable softness in the picture.

In 2005 I used the "sweet Spot" of a 28 - 70 "L" to take this shot
with a 20D. http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/POD/01-09-07. I
eventually enlarged the picture to 48 inch high and although you can't
see it in this clip, everything from the bride to the Casino is inside
the "Hyperfocal distance". I manually set the lens to a distance I
guessed to be the edge of the river. There is never any EXIF data in
these images, incidentally.

Although Russell's information is always reliable, there is nothing
like a bit of practical experimentation to figure out what works best
for you. The quality of your lens will dictate how well any of the
information you gather will actually relate to your circumstances.

Doug
cmyk - 08 Sep 2007 04:38 GMT
> The widest hyperfocal distance will be obtained with the smallest sensor size.

The hyperfocal distance is a point and has no width, so there's no such thing as the "widest hyperfocal distance".

> Some yeas back, manufacturer's began dropping distance scales from lens barrels.
> I presume now they did this because DSLRs were arriving and they had broader distances where less of the picture was unsharp.

The manufacturers began dropping distance scales from lens barrels long before DSLRs arrived on the scene". Those scales were based
on work done nearly 100 years ago for viewing a typical 15*10cm (6*4in) picture at a distance of 35cm (14in). They were probably
dropped because the manufacturers realised the underlying assumptions those scales relied on were fundamentally flawed. They were
flawed because they disregarded the final image size, viewing distance and what the user might regard as "acceptable sharpness".

In 'Camera Lens News. No.1', published in 1997, Carl Zeiss AG made note of the fact that changes in expectations had led to a
perceived lack in Depth of Field as being the most common complaint about its more recent lenses and concluded "Those who use depth
of field scales, tables, and formulas (e. g. for hyperfocal settings), restrict themselves - most probably without knowing why - to
the image quality potential of an average pre-World-War-II emulsion".

That criticism applies equally to programs like DoFMaster (f-Calc is another) that disregard the final image size and viewing
distance. In effect, those programs assume that if you double the height & width of a print, you'll view it from twice as far away.
In reality, people tend to view a picture of 60*40cm from less than twice the distance they'd view a 30*20cm picture, just as they'd
view a 30*20cm picture from less than twice the distance they'd view a 15*10cm picture. The fact that the larger pictures tend to be
viewed from relatively closer distances reduces the DoF for the larger prints.

>  Once you get below about F/12 with a 1.6 crop, a whole new set of variables surface.
Since a 20D/30D already gives as much DoF at f14 as a 135 format (35mm) camera at f22, why use anything smaller and run into
diffraction issues? In fact, if you want to do,say, a 30*20cm print that'd be viewed from around 45cm away, I'd suggest keeping the
aperture no smaller than f9.5 (f15 for the 135 format), otherwise diffraction will start degrading the image. The smaller the
sensor, the sooner diffraction exceeds the CoC.

> Not the least being light fall off towards the edges

This is far less of a problem with a APS-C format DSLR using 135 format lenses than it is for a 135 format camera using the same
lens.

> By the time you get to F/22 there will be noticeable light fall off at the edges

See previous comment. In event, the light fall-off for most lenses decreases as the aperture is stopped down.

Signature

cmyk

Troy Piggins - 08 Sep 2007 11:30 GMT
* D_Mac is quoted & my replies are inline below :
> [---=| Quote block shrinked by t-prot: 74 lines snipped |=---]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You do realize Troy, that Hyperfocal distance is a mythical location?

Mythical is not the term I would use - mathmatical maybe?  I saw
a formula for calculating it somewhere where it's a function of
the focal length, f-number, and circle of confusion limit.  So I
presume that it is an actual distance that for a given lens focal
length can be calculated.

> The presumption is that before and behind the subject can be made
> sharp really means "less unsharp" than closer or further elements of
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> 12. By the time you get to F/22 there will be noticeable light fall
> off at the edges and considerable softness in the picture.

I have read about lens sweet spots.  I didn't realise they
related to what I was talking about.

> In 2005 I used the "sweet Spot" of a 28 - 70 "L" to take this shot
> with a 20D. http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/POD/01-09-07. I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> for you. The quality of your lens will dictate how well any of the
> information you gather will actually relate to your circumstances.

Yeah, thanks.  I'm gonna have a play with it.

Signature

Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

k - 08 Sep 2007 03:19 GMT
| I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
| my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
|
| Do you do that for nature landscapes?

if I have something within 1.5m of the lens I want included in the landscape
then yes, af gets turned off, I use the distance scale on the lens and fire
away :)

but..

I generally try to shoot at the sharpest aperture and that's different for
each lens, so sometimes I won't maximise my DOF (which is what shooting at
the hyperfocal distance is all about)

| Say the lens I'm using is 24mm at f/11.  On my 30D the hyperfocal
| distance is 2.7m.  So if I manually focus at 2.7m, everything
| from 1.35m away to infinity is in focus?  Is that how you would
| do it?  Manually focus?  Is that accurate enough?

absolutely!  do you have distance markers on your lens?

gawd.. I shot across 4 days at a festival once without ever looking through
the viewfinder - slapped a 24mm on the F1 set to the hyperfocal and duct
taped in place, IR filter over the front, set the shutter speed /aperture to
the appropriate settings, pointed the camera wherever I felt and fired away
like a loon - all good :)

that was THE way to do things in pre AF days, especially when shooting on
bright sunny days -

k
Troy Piggins - 08 Sep 2007 10:47 GMT
* k is quoted & my replies are inline below :

>| I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
>| my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> each lens, so sometimes I won't maximise my DOF (which is what shooting at
> the hyperfocal distance is all about)

Ok - thanks very much for your tips.

>| Say the lens I'm using is 24mm at f/11.  On my 30D the hyperfocal
>| distance is 2.7m.  So if I manually focus at 2.7m, everything
>| from 1.35m away to infinity is in focus?  Is that how you would
>| do it?  Manually focus?  Is that accurate enough?
>
> absolutely!  do you have distance markers on your lens?

Yes - they all do.  I wasn't sure how accurate they were for this
purpose, that's all.

> gawd.. I shot across 4 days at a festival once without ever looking through
> the viewfinder - slapped a 24mm on the F1 set to the hyperfocal and duct
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> that was THE way to do things in pre AF days, especially when shooting on
> bright sunny days -

Thanks again.  I don't have the luxury of that experience.

Signature

Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

Scott W - 08 Sep 2007 12:00 GMT
> I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
> my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Please offer your thoughts.

The easiest way to think about hyperfocal distance is to start out with
the idea that if you focus at some distance x then things at a distance
of x/2 will be blurred the same amount as things at infinity. The idea
then is that at some f/stop you will have an acceptable focus at both
x/2 and infinity, with everything in between being in better focus.

A lens with a DOF scale on it makes this a very easy thing to do, sadly
only one of my lenses has a DOF scale on it.  Even with the DOF scale
you need to be careful, I find that using a DSLR with a 1.6 crop factor
I need to use about one stop slower then what the DOF scale tells me I need.

For landscapes I often just focus at infinity for a couple of reasons, I
don't want to compromise the sharpness of the distance stuff and I often
shooting with a fairly short lens and as such I have plenty of DOF.

Scott
Troy Piggins - 08 Sep 2007 13:38 GMT
* Scott W is quoted & my replies are inline below :
> [---=| Quote block shrinked by t-prot: 23 lines snipped |=---]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> then is that at some f/stop you will have an acceptable focus at both
> x/2 and infinity, with everything in between being in better focus.

That's what I'm understanding.

> A lens with a DOF scale on it makes this a very easy thing to do, sadly
> only one of my lenses has a DOF scale on it.  Even with the DOF scale
> you need to be careful, I find that using a DSLR with a 1.6 crop factor
> I need to use about one stop slower then what the DOF scale tells me I need.

Bugger - none of my lenses have that.  Oh well.

> For landscapes I often just focus at infinity for a couple of reasons, I
> don't want to compromise the sharpness of the distance stuff and I often
> shooting with a fairly short lens and as such I have plenty of DOF.

Thanks Scott.

Signature

Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 09 Sep 2007 12:06 GMT
> I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
> my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> acceptably focussed.  I got to thinking and I have a bunch of
> questions...
My only additional comment has pretty much been said, so I guess it is
just reinforcement...  Nowadays it is hard to do *properly*, unless
you have high end equipment with decent distance scales, bright
viewfinders, d-o-f preview etc..  I do it sometimes, but less often
than when I was shooting more manual equipment.

However...  once you get to know your equipment/lens, and have a
'feel' for the depth of field you have at different f-stops, there is
nothing you can't do with manual focus (or a-f, if there are objects
at suitable distances) and a bit of patient experimentation - and if
you're doing land/cityscapes you should have time to play, although it
sounds like you will be shooting in that magic 15 minutes or so when
the light is right..  Perhaps do your experimenting in daylight, then
apply the knowledge later..?

And as an interesting sidenote and trivia question - dusk shooting is
easier at more southerly (or northerly for north hemispherians)
latitudes..

Now why is that?

(No prize for first correct answer, just kudos. (O;)
PixelPix - 09 Sep 2007 12:22 GMT
On Sep 9, 9:06 pm, mark.thoma...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 7, 11:53 pm, Troy Piggins <usenet-0...@piggo.com> wrote:> I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
> > my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> (No prize for first correct answer, just kudos. (O;)

Umm?  Cause it lasts longer?
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 10 Sep 2007 11:35 GMT
> > And as an interesting sidenote and trivia question - dusk shooting is
> > easier at more southerly (or northerly for north hemispherians)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Umm?  Cause it lasts longer?

Correct!  But you weren't exactly convincing.  (O;

As you go lower (or higher) and therefore further from the equator,
the sun becomes increasingly angled as it rises/sets.  Which means
that it is closer to the horizon for a much longer period, and
therefore casts usable light for a much longer period.  I recently
moved from lat 34 to about 27, and found it VERY noticable.  It's
almost like the lights go out suddenly at dusk, no long lingering
twilight... sigh.

If you take it to the extremes (at the poles) you can end up with 24
hour daylight/night...  No problems with rushing to catch the "magic
hour" there..

This may also explain in a small way why daylight saving is not as
popular as you get closer to the equator, as there isn't so much
variation winter/summer, nor is there much usable twilight.

Just call me Dr Karl...  (O;
PixelPix - 10 Sep 2007 13:44 GMT
On Sep 10, 8:35 pm, mark.thoma...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > And as an interesting sidenote and trivia question - dusk shooting is
> > > easier at more southerly (or northerly for north hemispherians)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Correct!  But you weren't exactly convincing.  (O;

Yeah... the sarcasm was lost in the text.  ;-)
Troy Piggins - 10 Sep 2007 20:44 GMT
* mark.thomas.7@gmail.com is quoted & my replies are inline below
* :
>> > And as an interesting sidenote and trivia question - dusk shooting is
>> > easier at more southerly (or northerly for north hemispherians)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> almost like the lights go out suddenly at dusk, no long lingering
> twilight... sigh.

Yeah, I lived in Cairns for a while.  One day I was outside and
it was bright daylight, went inside for a cup of coffee, went
outside again and it was pitch black.  :)

> If you take it to the extremes (at the poles) you can end up with 24
> hour daylight/night...  No problems with rushing to catch the "magic
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> popular as you get closer to the equator, as there isn't so much
> variation winter/summer, nor is there much usable twilight.

Exactly.

> Just call me Dr Karl...  (O;

No, that name is reserved for someone who wears louder shirts
than you do.

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Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

Mike Warren - 10 Sep 2007 20:51 GMT
> Yeah, I lived in Cairns for a while.  One day I was outside and
> it was bright daylight, went inside for a cup of coffee, went
> outside again and it was pitch black.  :)

Tell me about it! I call the golden hours the golden 10 minutes.

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Troy Piggins - 09 Sep 2007 13:59 GMT
* mark.thomas.7@gmail.com is quoted & my replies are inline below
* :
>> I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
>> my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the light is right..  Perhaps do your experimenting in daylight, then
> apply the knowledge later..?

Thanks for your tips.

> And as an interesting sidenote and trivia question - dusk shooting is
> easier at more southerly (or northerly for north hemispherians)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> (No prize for first correct answer, just kudos. (O;)

I'm thinking further from equator, sunsets take longer?

Signature

Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 10 Sep 2007 11:35 GMT
> I'm thinking further from equator, sunsets take longer?

Correct - see above!
Colin_D - 11 Sep 2007 03:17 GMT
> I'm thinking about taking some dusk cityscape pics to test out
> my new tripod, and I got to thinking about landscape photos and
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Please offer your thoughts.

Doesn't your 30D have a DEP position on the mode knob?  Just angle the
camera so the outer focus marks are on the nearest and furthest points
you want in focus, and take a half-pressure.  Read off the aperture in
the viewfinder and then set mode to Av and the required aperture if
you're using metered exposure, or set mode to manual and set aperture
and shutter to the indicated values.

Colin D.

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Troy Piggins - 11 Sep 2007 04:37 GMT
* Colin_D is quoted & my replies are inline below :
> [---=| Quote block shrinked by t-prot: 23 lines snipped |=---]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> you're using metered exposure, or set mode to manual and set aperture
> and shutter to the indicated values.

I could do that, but seems like a lot of frigging around.  I'd
have to change my AF from centre to all, then do as you say, then
change back; adjusting modes etc...  I do most in full manual
anyway.

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Troy Piggins

 
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