Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / March 2007
The big cat is coming to get you!
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D-Mac - 10 Mar 2007 19:57 GMT Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... When the Pelican doesn't get it first!
http://www.annika1980.com/D-Macs/cat.htm
Douglas
Mark² - 10 Mar 2007 22:36 GMT > Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant > companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Douglas What's with the crinkled green tin-foil you crammed into that poor cat's eyes??? What, did you freeze this poor cat's iris until it crystalized???
Your image-editing "choices" never cease to amaze...
When doing editing of this kind, it's always wise to occasionally refer back to the original image as you make changes, since it's otherwise too easy to morph the image into an utterly destroyed, fake-looking chunk of goo...like this cat's eyes look.
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
D-Mac - 10 Mar 2007 23:51 GMT : > Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant : > companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : morph the image into an utterly destroyed, fake-looking chunk of goo...like : this cat's eyes look. Serious are you Mark? Ha, ha, ha. Man I wouldn't have thought you'd have been that stupid as to say something like this. When you had a go at my telescopic flash shot of a Pelican over dusk, I got the idea you might have been serious but I wasn't too sure so I said nothing but this... Oh man. Give up on critical analysis. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. You do know that digital cameras outline their images with certain backgrounds, don't you?
There seems to be a brigade of self styled experts passing judgment on my photos in this group who simply haven't got a bloody clue. You really need to get a handle on the issue before telling me I've over edited a photo I barely touched.
Last year it was my "Pelicans at dusk" photo that I hit with 4 GN 80 flashes to get them lit at sunset. "Inappropriate use of flash" was the cry, wasn't it? The single best selling photo of the year, sales wise.
Bret got in with my "blurry" Pelicans that aren't today and Tony Polson got in the year before about a old Islander I shot in ceremonial garb, being a "soft Image".
The cat photo is as shot, cropped to about 90% of original size and sharpened with 200% or unsharp mask at 0.2 radius. Not a single alteration to the eyes or any other part of the image. Don't you understand about UV light and cat's eyes in the dark? Man, don't do this. You are starting to look as idiotic as Bret Hogan.
Just because you can't do these things, don't for one moment assume no one else can.That's pure bigotry.
Douglas
Mark² - 11 Mar 2007 00:06 GMT >>> Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant >>> companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Douglas If you don't see the severe over-sharpening evidence in this shot, then you're beyond hope. I'll leave this to others, as anyone with an eyeball will agree that the sharpening in this photo is extreme...whether the result of an over-zealous in-camera setting, or after-the-fact D-Mac job. There are blobs, halos and dots all over this photo. Individual hair detail is lost in the swamp of crystalized-looking stuff. Sort of looks like a water color painting viewed through a screen door, and painted with a frayed brush.
But whatever floats your boat...
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
Annika1980 - 11 Mar 2007 02:45 GMT > Serious are you Mark? Ha, ha, ha. Man I wouldn't have thought you'd have > been that stupid as to say something like this. > Give up on critical analysis. You couldn't be further from the truth if you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to get a handle on the issue before telling me I've over edited a photo I > barely touched. Hey D-Mac, you forgot to tell him that you were just baiting him by posting another crappy photo. I mean, you WERE baiting him, right D- Mac? I mean, nobody would seriously expect anything but harsh critque from this mess. http://www.annika1980.com/D-Macs/cripes.png
Gee, no wonder you named that pic "cripes.png." As in, "Cripes! What did you do to that pic?"
BTW, just for reference purposes here is a similar pic showing a cat's eyes that don't look crystallized and fur that doesn't resemble jumbled barbed wire.
http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/13184171/original
I played around with it for a few minutes in Photoshop to see if I could duplicate the look of your pic. With a lot of over-sharpening and some saturation adjustments, not to mention some poor re-sizing techniques, I came pretty close. But then I looked at the pic and yelled, "Cripes! What have I done?"
Here's a few more cat shots, sans the crystallized eyes effect: http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/65359259 http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/73009886 http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/73587070
Mark² - 11 Mar 2007 06:44 GMT >> Serious are you Mark? Ha, ha, ha. Man I wouldn't have thought you'd >> have [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > posting another crappy photo. I mean, you WERE baiting him, right D- > Mac? Baiting... Ha ha ha. :) That's sort of like the kid who trips, and then says, "I meant to do that..." :)
> I mean, nobody would seriously expect anything but harsh critque from > this mess. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/73009886 > http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/73587070 Honestly, Bret, I don't think he can see the difference. He seems to really have no awareness of the elements present in his image.
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
Mark² - 12 Mar 2007 00:55 GMT >>> Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant >>> companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> otherwise too easy to morph the image into an utterly destroyed, >> fake-looking chunk of goo...like this cat's eyes look.
> The cat photo is as shot, cropped to about 90% of original size and > sharpened with 200% or unsharp mask at 0.2 radius. Not a single > alteration to the eyes or any other part of the image. Don't you > understand about UV light and cat's eyes in the dark? Man, don't do > this. You are starting to look as idiotic as Bret Hogan. Who was referring to the glow from the pupil? Not me. I'm talking about everything other than that. Here's an enlargement from www.annika1980.com: http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/75512024/original (Bret didn't seem to mind if I borrowed a portion of this image for reference purposes) Now put your glasses on...put down the tequilla, and tell me this looks like an accurate rendering of cat's fur...cat's iris...or a cat's nose flesh. I have yet to meet a kitty who is made out of crystalized clay. :)
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
JimKramer - 11 Mar 2007 01:04 GMT On Mar 10, 5:36 pm, "Mark?" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
> > Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant > > companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark? at: > www.pbase.com/markuson http://www.jlkramer.net/Pictures/catseye.htm It's a little over a Mb, but you can see the detail that is just over- exposed, for a cat's eye, in Douglas' shot. It's the whole image, just slightly compressed and exposed for the iris not the cat. They really do look like crinkled tinfoil. Note the black edge of the iris that rolls up over the tissue. Cat's are just cool.
Jim
Andrew Venor - 11 Mar 2007 01:05 GMT >>Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant >>companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What's with the crinkled green tin-foil you crammed into that poor cat's > eyes??? What, did you freeze this poor cat's iris until it crystalized??? Seeing that she is sixteen years old I'm going to take a guess that this cat is developing cataracts.
ALV
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 10 Mar 2007 22:49 GMT > Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant > companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... When the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Douglas I thought the cat's eyes looked really strange. I'm not familiar with Photoshop or any kind of touch-ups for that matter, but I certainly could detect something strange. Helen
Richard Neilsen - 10 Mar 2007 22:57 GMT that would be what cats eyes look like, hense they reflect at night. Do you have to hang crap on this guy about every post he puts up? wake up kiddies.
>> Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant >> companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... When [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > could detect something strange. > Helen Mark² - 10 Mar 2007 22:59 GMT > that would be what cats eyes look like, hense they reflect at night. > Do you have to hang crap on this guy about every post he puts up? wake up > kiddies. Are you serious? This image is so severely over-manipulated to the point of looking crystalized.
>>> Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant >>> companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> certainly could detect something strange. >> Helen
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
D-Mac - 10 Mar 2007 23:52 GMT : > that would be what cats eyes look like, hense they reflect at night. : > Do you have to hang crap on this guy about every post he puts up? wake up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : This image is so severely over-manipulated to the point of looking : crystalized. Give up on it Mark... Before I make you look as stupid a Hogan.
Mark² - 11 Mar 2007 00:08 GMT >>> that would be what cats eyes look like, hense they reflect at night. >>> Do you have to hang crap on this guy about every post he puts up? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > Give up on it Mark... Before I make you look as stupid a Hogan. I think I'm beginning to understand you more clearly, Douglas. More and more, I'm convinced that you really just don't see images in detail. I can think of no other explanation.
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 10 Mar 2007 23:06 GMT On Mar 10, 5:57 pm, "Richard Neilsen" <richardneil...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> that would be what cats eyes look like, hense they reflect at night. > Do you have to hang crap on this guy about every post he puts up? wake up [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Sorry, but I don't agree. The cat's eyes look very strange, like they have been heavily photoshopped or something to that nature. As for posting "crap" about D-Mac's pics, I have never given him negative feedback on his work.
D-Mac - 11 Mar 2007 00:01 GMT : On Mar 10, 5:57 pm, "Richard Neilsen" <richardneil...@optusnet.com.au> : wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] : posting "crap" about D-Mac's pics, I have never given him negative : feedback on his work. I'll give you that much Helen... You refrain from sinking to the lows of your idol and his other worshipers (both of them). Take it from me Helen... The image is unaltered except for a very low sharpening. Accept it for what it is. An unusual photograph I took of my beloved cat. Unless of course you want me to start baiting you too.
Douglas
Mark² - 11 Mar 2007 00:09 GMT >> On Mar 10, 5:57 pm, "Richard Neilsen" >> <richardneil...@optusnet.com.au> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> > I'll give you that much Helen... So you'll agree that it looks strange and heavily photoshopped, but deny it entirely to me. Interesting.
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
Lionel - 15 Mar 2007 08:26 GMT ><helensilverburg@hotmail.com> wrote in message >: Sorry, but I don't agree. The cat's eyes look very strange, like they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >it is. An unusual photograph I took of my beloved cat. Unless of course you >want me to start baiting you too. I'm sure you're not interested in my opinion, but I give that shot 9/10 for the composition, which is very effective (plus, I like cats), but only 2/10 for the sharpening, which is too heavy-handed for the resolution you've posted it at, & the tone curve, which is a bit 'toppy', making it look a bit flat & washed out. That's a shame, because other than that, it's a very nice photo.
Sharpening Tips: It can be very hard to judge how much sharpening to apply to an image. One way of taking the guesswork out of sharpening in Photoshop is to zoom right in (200%) to the most detailed part of the image, sharpen until it starts looking unnatural, haloed, then back the control off a notch or two. A more advanced trick that's useful for difficult images is to to raw convert to a 16 bit format (I like ProPhoto), convert to LAB, & sharpen the same way, but with only the luma channel enabled. This allows you to sharpen further before getting the unpleasant colour 'jaggies' that occur in over-sharpened RGB images. I also sometimes 'level' an image in LAB mode, using only the Luma channel, as it seems to give a more natural looking result than simple RGB levelling.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas. - 15 Mar 2007 09:09 GMT : I'm sure you're not interested in my opinion, but I give that shot : 9/10 for the composition, which is very effective (plus, I like cats), : but only 2/10 for the sharpening, which is too heavy-handed for the : resolution you've posted it at, & the tone curve, which is a bit : 'toppy', making it look a bit flat & washed out. That's a shame, : because other than that, it's a very nice photo. Sharpening is subjective. My printers can handle massive sharpening while computer images very little. I use a sharpening layer in the form of an action I have for PS. I can fine tune it much neater than with the sharpening tool of PS... For printing.
I'm a babe in the woods as far as computer images for display on the Internet are concerned. No money from them, you see?
Douglas
Paul Furman - 15 Mar 2007 16:59 GMT > Sharpening Tips: It can be very hard to judge how much sharpening to > apply to an image. One way of taking the guesswork out of sharpening [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > channel, as it seems to give a more natural looking result than simple > RGB levelling. I believe the equivalent can be done in RGB by duplicating the layer, setting it's mode to luminosity & sharpening only that. I often do my curves adjustment layers that way to avoid overdone saturation, I've heard of sharpening that way and should experiment with it.
Lionel - 16 Mar 2007 00:55 GMT >> Sharpening Tips: It can be very hard to judge how much sharpening to >> apply to an image. One way of taking the guesswork out of sharpening [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I believe the equivalent can be done in RGB by duplicating the layer, >setting it's mode to luminosity & sharpening only that. I've tried doing that, but I find it much easier to visualise the sharpening on a monochrome image than on an RGB image. That said, you've just given me the idea of doing it your way, but channel mixing the duplicate layer to monochrome before sharpening. I'll give it a try the next time I'm processing a difficult image & see if it helps. It's obviously better to switch colour modes as little as possible.
> I often do my >curves adjustment layers that way to avoid overdone saturation, Yes, exactly.
> I've >heard of sharpening that way and should experiment with it. Do, it's makes for a much cleaner image, IMO.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
William Graham - 16 Mar 2007 01:32 GMT >>> Sharpening Tips: It can be very hard to judge how much sharpening to >>> apply to an image. One way of taking the guesswork out of sharpening >>> in Photoshop is to zoom right in (200%) to the most detailed part of >>> the image, sharpen until it starts looking unnatural, haloed, then >>> back the control off a notch or two. I had a job for about 20 years where I spent a lot of time just adjusting variables to get them in the best place for the conditions they were affecting. I used a technique that was as you describe above. Our control points were measurable, so I would move the control in one direction until the conditions were noticeably bad, and mark where that position was. Then I would move the control in the other direction until the conditions were equally bad, and mark that position. Then I would average the two with my pocket calculator. (first point + second point) divided by 2, and set the control at that average position, before going on to the next control. In this manner, I could get the best conditions per pass with literally dozens of controls, and, after several interations, achieve a remarkably stable condition set.
Paul Furman - 16 Mar 2007 01:57 GMT >>>Sharpening Tips: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've tried doing that, but I find it much easier to visualise the > sharpening on a monochrome image than on an RGB image. Ah, OK that makes sense. Might be useful with curves too... throw a temporary desaturation adjustment layer in to adjust contrast.
>>I often do my >>curves adjustment layers that way to avoid overdone saturation, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Do, it's makes for a much cleaner image, IMO. Douglas. - 16 Mar 2007 03:11 GMT : I've tried doing that, but I find it much easier to visualise the : sharpening on a monochrome image than on an RGB image. That said, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : : Do, it's makes for a much cleaner image, IMO. You could of course use "lab colour" and sharpen only the monochrome part if the image or individual channels.
Lionel - 16 Mar 2007 04:05 GMT >: I've tried doing that, but I find it much easier to visualise the >: sharpening on a monochrome image than on an RGB image. That said, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >You could of course use "lab colour" and sharpen only the monochrome part if >the image or individual channels. Doug, that's exactly what I suggested in my first post to the thread. Paul & I were discussing another method which doesn't require converting to LAB.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 11 Mar 2007 00:37 GMT On Mar 11, 8:57 am, "Richard Neilsen" <richardneil...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> that would be what cats eyes look like, hense (sic) they reflect at night. > Do you have to hang crap on this guy about every post he puts up? wake up > kiddies. Hi, Richard, you big grown-up you..* (O;
How did your post actually add to the discussion - do *you* like the image? Think it is good technically? Care to add anything at all on- topic?
Here's my comments. I've tried to be fair and unbiased. (O; Feel free to argue the points raised.
1. Subject is good and cropping is interesting, but suffers from the distracting portion of pink tongue (?) at bottom - it should have been included or excluded, not truncated.
2. The image quality suffers badly from some type of pixellation - the effect is strange, almost like a 2-3 pixel crystallise filter has been applied, and then it has been oversharpened. The image is already striking because of the subject, so additional effects will likely look overdone and unnecessary, as this does, imo. And of course when you apply effects like these (or even if you are not particularly careful with your sharpening regime) finely detailed fur/hair can easily turn into a disaster, as shown here. At a casual glance it just looks like a crop that has become pixellated from being over- enlarged, but of course with Doug's knowledge of enlargement and his algorithms, that couldn't *possibly* be the problem (O;, so it must be a deliberate artistic choice. As such I disagree with it, but I don't for a moment criticise others (like Richard) who may think otherwise. It's a free country, so those who like the image are just as free to add their comments, as those who don't. Right, Richard?
3. The colours are oversaturated for my taste, again imo a sharp, accurate rendition of the scene would have worked better. There also seems to be some posterisation, but it is difficult to tell what it is, given the artefacts mentioned above.
Maybe with a little more (less?) work, Douglas could do this: http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Mouse-in-a-Cat-s-Eyes-Posters_i1210937_.htm and sell it as a poster..
*PS - have you had any takers in Mt Druitt, Rich? (O;
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 11 Mar 2007 00:41 GMT > http://www.annika1980.com/D-Macs/cat.htm What the hell did you use to take that pic? My Kodak DC280 shots look much better.
Rita
D-Mac - 11 Mar 2007 00:54 GMT : > http://www.annika1980.com/D-Macs/cat.htm : : What the hell did you use to take that pic? My Kodak DC280 shots look much : better. I would hope so Rita. The camera was a little Olympus -the model of which is long gone from my memory - with (I think) the same sensor as your Kodak had.
Great effects from those Kodak sensors, eh?
Richard Neilsen - 11 Mar 2007 04:04 GMT I dont believe that the eyes have been manipulated in any way, I am just saying that that is what a cats eyes would look like if a photo was taken that close up with a flash, hense the way they reflect in the dark.
My other point is, why is everyone so negative against this guy? I would be inclined to think it is tall poppy syndrome myself.
And sorry Helen, I wasn't having a go at you, it is just where my post came out.
I think this forum is full of try hard wanna bees, I posted a photo in this forum once nad got nothing but angst for placing a picture in a non binary forum, so maybe you should all just grow up, I understand and can live with constructive critisism, but you guys are just outright mean.
> : > http://www.annika1980.com/D-Macs/cat.htm > : [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Great effects from those Kodak sensors, eh? Rita Ä Berkowitz - 11 Mar 2007 04:12 GMT > I dont believe that the eyes have been manipulated in any way, I am > just saying that that is what a cats eyes would look like if a photo > was taken that close up with a flash, hense the way they reflect in > the dark. Nope! Use off-camera flash and you don't get them nasty looking reflections or green eye.
> My other point is, why is everyone so negative against this guy? I > would be inclined to think it is tall poppy syndrome myself. Maybe they feel it manly to gang-bang the cripples?
> I think this forum is full of try hard wanna bees, I posted a photo > in this forum once nad got nothing but angst for placing a picture in > a non binary forum, so maybe you should all just grow up, I > understand and can live with constructive critisism, but you guys are > just outright mean. Well, there's your problem! Never post binaries in a none binary group. Do it the proper way and open up a free Geocities page and link to that.
Rita
Rob - 11 Mar 2007 04:48 GMT > I think this forum is full of try hard wanna bees, That our Doug!
I posted a photo in this
> forum once nad got nothing but angst for placing a picture in a non binary > forum, so maybe you should all just grow up, I understand and can live with [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >>Great effects from those Kodak sensors, eh? Mark² - 11 Mar 2007 06:48 GMT > I dont believe that the eyes have been manipulated in any way, I am > just saying that that is what a cats eyes would look like if a photo > was taken that close up with a flash, hense the way they reflect in > the dark. I wasn't referring to the reflection effect from the pupil. I was referring to the severely over-sharpened look everywhere else.
> My other point is, why is everyone so negative against this guy? I > would be inclined to think it is tall poppy syndrome myself. There is a long history here. I would have the same reaction as you, were it not for having witnessed Douglas' antics over several years.
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
Graham Fountain - 11 Mar 2007 08:20 GMT Nice one - personally I'd have cropped a little less (assuming it is cropped), so as to get the mouth in. That part just doesn't quite look right to me, but that's just my personal opinion - perhaps she had a big slobbery tongue, in which case chopping that out is probably good. Perhaps you could title it in the theme of "Are you being served" - something along the lines of "has anyone seen my pussy?" - sorry, I've watched too much pommy comedy.
> Ha, ha ha.... Her name is rastus. She's 16years old and my constant > companion. She loves nothing more than a feed of fresh whiting... When the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Douglas Graham Fountain - 11 Mar 2007 08:29 GMT > Nice one - personally I'd have cropped a little less (assuming it is > cropped), so as to get the mouth in. That part just doesn't quite look > right to me, but that's just my personal opinion - perhaps she had a big > slobbery tongue, in which case chopping that out is probably good. I will add, it does look oversharpened - at first I thought it was just over-cropping, so I let that slide, but after reading the rest of the responses, yes it does look a little oversharp to me - if as you say though, it was from a very old p&s digicam (presumably low MP), then a lot of that could have been from the camera. I think i'd like to see a version that hasn't been sharpened in photoshop - pretty sure that would be better. But otherwise, I think it is a nice shot. I'm curious about what you did about lighting - i haven't managed to get decent pussy photos - on camera flash gives the dreaded green-eye, and they don't stay in the same place long enough to set up other lighting. Handheld off camera flash perhaps?
> Perhaps you could title it in the theme of "Are you being served" - > something along the lines of "has anyone seen my pussy?" - sorry, I've [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Douglas Lionel - 15 Mar 2007 08:38 GMT >hasn't been sharpened in photoshop - pretty sure that would be better. But >otherwise, I think it is a nice shot. I'm curious about what you did about >lighting - i haven't managed to get decent pussy photos - on camera flash >gives the dreaded green-eye, and they don't stay in the same place long >enough to set up other lighting. Handheld off camera flash perhaps? Cat's eyes are incredibly reflective, so any form of on-axis lighting will bounce right back at you & give you that effect. Use a flash gun with the head turned towards a reflector (eg; next to a white wall, drape, etc), or shoot outdoors on a bright, overcast day. On a DSLR with a good low-noise sensor, you can turn off the flash & use room lighting at ISO 800 or 1600.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
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