Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / September 2006
Computer?
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Tone - 26 Sep 2006 12:53 GMT What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...)
Graham Fountain - 26 Sep 2006 13:31 GMT > What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new > computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) I would suggest your first priority would be your monitor, something with a good contrast ratio, good resolution and decent size would be a good start. Sorry I can't suggest any specifics, but pretty much any brand has both good and average - you'll probably want to look for something above entry level in whatever size you want.
Depending on how many photos you are shooting, I'd probably suggest a big hard drive as the next priority, and probably a big external hard drive as a backup - especially if you are shooting raw.
Ram - more the better. 512MB will suffice if you don't mind waiting a bit for some things, and generally only have 1 or 2 photos open at a time. 1GB or more though will really free things up.
Screen, Hard drive and ram would, for me at least, rank above things like video card, CPU type etc.
Graham Fountain - 26 Sep 2006 13:33 GMT > Depending on how many photos you are shooting, I'd probably suggest a > big hard drive as the next priority, and probably a big external hard > drive as a backup - especially if you are shooting raw. Actually, I'll add to that too - I'd probably suggest having 2 hard drives in the computer, or at the very least partition your drive. If your data is on a different physical drive or partition to windows, things become a whole lot easier to manage when windows goes belly up (as it almost always eventually will)
Tone - 26 Sep 2006 14:08 GMT I just was looking on the Dell site and I read that a good graphics card sounds good but if you think other things are more important I thankyou.
> > Depending on how many photos you are shooting, I'd probably suggest a > > big hard drive as the next priority, and probably a big external hard [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > things become a whole lot easier to manage when windows goes belly up > (as it almost always eventually will) k - 26 Sep 2006 14:18 GMT | What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new | computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) Matrox video card (2 or 3 monitor output) and a few good CRT (trinitron) monitors, a few hard drives with a bunch of spares for backing up and a removable case to switch them so you're not wasting your $$ on expensive flash cases with brand names.
they'd be my biggest priorities.
next, a stable OS ;)
etc..
k
[BnH] - 26 Sep 2006 14:53 GMT Just manage or editing ?
if just manage, just 2 big HDD and make them mirror one another + buy a DVD burner to back it up off system.
but for editing,
a Pentium D is reasonably affordable + 1GB RAM minimum [!!] + a decent video card with around 256 MB RAM to drive a high res 1600 x 1200 screen are good to have.
> What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new > computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) Oz - 27 Sep 2006 15:48 GMT > Just manage or editing ? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new >> computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) Actually a "Good" video card is low on the list of priorities, just about every $60 video card from the markets will have more than enough grunt for image display, and yes, the more memory on the video card the better, it doesn't have to be top of the line as my son's computer only has an nvidea 6600LE based vid but it can quite happily run a suitable monitor at 1600 and above with its 256 meg of DDR 2 ram (and it cost under $100). remember its just 2D here and all video card manufacturers have perfected that years ago, the big money in video cards is for their stupendous 3D ability. and Image manipulation requires good CPU and Hard Disk Drive performance. Next on the hit list should be RAM, the more the merrier, if you can afford it, max out your Motherboards capacity, especially if your going to be working with large files in Photoshop, for a processor look a the new Core 2 Duo's from Intel, they are the processors to beat at the moment, in all areas and especially in content creation. for Hard drives, go the SATA 2 route, just a fast as SCSI and half the price, a pair of 150 gig Raptors set up in RAID 0 for your OS and a couple of 320 Gig SATA 2's for storage will just about set you up. and you can pick up some very decent 21" CRT's for a good price now days something like the Sony-GDM-F500R http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=F500R&page=1 would suffice
:-) Oz
k - 29 Sep 2006 10:54 GMT | > Just manage or editing ?
| Actually a "Good" video card is low on the list of priorities, just about | every $60 video card from the markets will have more than enough grunt for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | above with its 256 meg of DDR 2 ram (and it cost under $100). remember its | just 2D here and all video card manufacturers have perfected that years ago, I understand the 2D market is accommodated on the newer cards, but in a less than perfect fashion. I have heard most gamerz cards (nvidea, radeon ati etc) have bad RFI filtering, high frequency signal roll-off and similar problems result in blurry image quality. I also heard that colour fidelity is sacrificed for high frame rates *even* when running in 2D modes.
My wife could not understand how I could spend all day editing and writing on the puter, claiming she always got a headache after 5 or 6 hours on her various machines irrespective of the refresh rate, bit depth or screen res, one day when hers was down she used mine. a few hours later she commented that she felt absolutely fine and understood why I was so insistent on keeping the matrox ;)
Grunt has little to do with image editing, colour fidelity and sharpness is more important but then again, I see people who have become familiar with some awful systems and seem more than happy, producing fine work on less than optimal equipment.
Another point, I understand that only X amount of video ram can be addressed and a lot of the newer cards with 2x X ram is largely a marketing ploy. Can any one confirm how much can be addressed? (** see below) I've also not seen a squeak of difference using 8,16 and 32Mb matrox cards in any area other than when playing games..
| the big money in video cards is for their stupendous 3D ability. and Image | manipulation requires good CPU and Hard Disk Drive performance. Next on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | for your OS and a couple of 320 Gig SATA 2's for storage will just about set | you up. Do they make 1500rpm SCSI drives? not that hard drive speed makes a heck of a lot (any??) difference in image editing if enough ram is loaded. Sure, video and audio where files are accessed and written to hard drive along the way, but image files rarely seem to need the drive to be involved.
re Vram: from http://www.techimo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158406 Myth: More VRAM = Better!
Fact: Not true, depending on what you're doing.
VRAM is used by a card to store commands, textures, and rendered materials before the RAMDAC sends the stuff out through your VGA/DVI port. Most games will only need 128 megs of VRAM at medium-high settings, and 256 megs of VRAM comes in handy with max settings, especially with textures. And the 7800GTX with 512 megs of VRAM is NOT better just because of the RAM. It comes significantly overclocked out of the box, at 550 Mhz Core and 850 Mhz (1.7 Ghz effective) Memory. And for those of you who are wondering about the 6200 series cards that have "128 Meg supporting" in the name, the mem controller uses system RAM as artificial VRAM when needed. HOWEVER, for reasons that I can't fully explain, having low amounts of system RAM will almost definately bottleneck higher end graphics cards, such as the 7800GT or GTX. 1.5 to 2 gigs will take away that bottleneck, and then it will be the CPU's job.
what the ram is used for
Ok, first, your CPU sends data to your video card to be cached in RAM. This is what it's there for, to hold pre and post-processed data. Next, Geometry and Commands are sent to the Pre-T&L Cache. Vertex Shading (T&L) then takes place, and the data is sent to the Post-T&L Cache. Then, this data is sent to Triangle Setup and Rasterization. Now, what about Textures? They're sent to the... take a guess... Texture Cache. Fragment Shading and Raster Operations are then executed on those Textures and semi-processed Geometry from the Triangle Setup and Rasterization stages. All this is then sent to the frame buffer, which is located within your VRAM. Now what? The RAMDAC sends this info out through your VGA/DVI port, and the rest is for another guide. That's the basic overview of how at least an nVidia card works
kosh - 26 Sep 2006 21:52 GMT > What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new > computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) screen is most important, as it effects your final result memory, due to processing times good burner for backing up your photos
Sam - 27 Sep 2006 03:07 GMT > What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new > computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) Photo management this is becoming more and more computer hungry, larger file sizes, more processing required. Photoshop has not improved with age actually become more resource dependent. Also Adobe Lightroom is not a puppy either.
What others have written are good suggestions and should be combined.
Dell computers are overpriced although they have a reasonable warranty. Most of the components are propriety and, after the warranty expires, very expensive to replace. ( motherboards of the same specs are 50% less for a named type, power supplies are not generic - something to consider)
Main bits -
Computers are changing in there specs now whereas the Intel CORE 2 processor will take you a lot further down the track. The Pentium D940 not bad either and will fit the same MB,
AGP video cards are out and PCI Express are in and 2 can be fitted to the newer boards. (for two monitors if you need such. http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID =2295&ProductName=GA-965P-DQ6
SATA HDD's are in. 200 - 350 GB and maybe 2 of those. Samsung are quite.
Screens LCD have come of age eg Samsung. a 19" LCD are equal in size to a 21" CRT.
Memory 1GB maybe OK for now but 2GB is better, they say the new MS operating system is more memory dependent.
If you put together a better computer then it will not become redundant in 2 years when you watch the specs grow - what's above will last heaps longer.
Phred - 27 Sep 2006 11:20 GMT >> What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new >> computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >very expensive to replace. ( motherboards of the same specs are 50% less >for a named type, power supplies are not generic - something to consider) I think modern Dell's do have a "generic" PS, if I've understood talk in the Dell group in the past few months.
>Main bits - >Computers are changing in there specs now whereas the Intel CORE 2 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >SATA HDD's are in. 200 - 350 GB and maybe 2 of those. Samsung are quite. Quite what? Oh, you mean "quiet"? ;-)
>Screens LCD have come of age eg Samsung. a 19" LCD are equal in size to >a 21" CRT. But I'm told they're nowhere near as good as the old tubes for graphics work. Bloke I know who lives by flogging images was bemoaning the difficulty of getting a big VDU here in FNQ a few months ago. Not a happy chappy with the offered LCD etc alternatives.
>Memory 1GB maybe OK for now but 2GB is better, they say the new MS >operating system is more memory dependent. > >If you put together a better computer then it will not become redundant >in 2 years when you watch the specs grow - what's above will last heaps >longer. Yeah. I went with "average plus a bit" instead of "average plus a lot" when I bought this machine ... ummm ... 5 years ago! sh.t! No wonder I do a fair bit of grumbling over its performance now. :-)
Cheers, Phred.
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k - 27 Sep 2006 12:05 GMT "Phred" <
Sam:
| >Screens LCD have come of age eg Samsung. a 19" LCD are equal in size to | >a 21" CRT. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | bemoaning the difficulty of getting a big VDU here in FNQ a few months | ago. Not a happy chappy with the offered LCD etc alternatives. it's an issue..
both contrast and colour (come ON with the OLED monitors please!!)
contrast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_ratio
it seems as usual, there are differing ways of measuring and expressing the idea of contrast ratio, one considers the available room light, another method does not. Another method highlights dynamic contrast advantages over static
"Emissive display technologies - where all pixels emit light individually, such as OLED, plasma, FED and SED - are capable of achieving a very good contrast ratio. This is also true with the case of CRT[1] which have a theoretically infinite contrast ratio and practically achieve such a high contrast ratio that this terminology usually does not refer to them."
this is largely because the light is emitted when the gun in the CRT causes light to be emitted when it fires at the phosphor screen at a given part of the screen, the comparison being against the bit where NO emission occurs, thus no light. LCD' have a light that's always on and black is produced by blocking this light (to a certain degree). There's a limit to how much can be blocked, and a limit to how bright the LCD backlight can go (obviously) and the difference between the two limits LCS's more than CRT's, OLED's or any of the others mentioned above
Personally I have great hopes for OLED's and hope we see them on the market soon. Prices should be VERY cheap and sizes are not limited by existing problems in technology as the screen can be created by virtually 'printing' it on a substrate :) :)
"A notable recent development in the LCD technology is the so called "dynamic contrast". When there is a need to display a dark image, the display would underpower the backlight lamp ..but will proportionately amplify the transmission through the LCD panel. This gives the benefit of realizing the potential static contrast ratio of the LCD panel in dark scenes... The drawback is that if a dark scene does contain small areas of superbright light, they may be sacrificed and blown out."
"Some manufacturers have gone as far as using different device parameters for the two tests, even further inflating the calculated contrast ratio. .. one method to do this is to enable the white sector for the "on" part and disable it for the "off" part[4] This practice is rather dubious, as it will be impossible to reproduce such contrast ratios with any useful image content."
k
Mr.T - 28 Sep 2006 03:13 GMT > "A notable recent development in the LCD technology is the so called > "dynamic contrast". When there is a need to display a dark image, the > display would underpower the backlight lamp ..but will proportionately > amplify the transmission through the LCD panel. This gives the benefit of > realizing the potential static contrast ratio of the LCD panel in dark > scenes... Which is aimed at the TV and games market of course, where scenes are often bright daylight, or dark night.
> The drawback is that if a dark scene does contain small areas of > superbright light, they may be sacrificed and blown out." In the case of graphics work, you need a wide dynamic range for a still picture. Dynamic contast tricks have no use whatsoever, other than to make profiling impossible.
> "Some manufacturers have gone as far as using different device parameters > for the two tests, even further inflating the calculated contrast ratio. .. > one method to do this is to enable the white sector for the "on" part and > disable it for the "off" part[4] This practice is rather dubious, as it > will be impossible to reproduce such contrast ratios with any useful image > content." Exactly, it's simply a marketing ploy.
MrT.
Sam - 27 Sep 2006 23:43 GMT >>Screens LCD have come of age eg Samsung. a 19" LCD are equal in size to >>a 21" CRT. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bemoaning the difficulty of getting a big VDU here in FNQ a few months > ago. Not a happy chappy with the offered LCD etc alternatives. I do have both a 21" Trinitron tube CRT and a 19" LCD. Actually a Dell
:) which has a Samsung made screen, Mac also have Samsung made LCD screens. Using either is no problem to get the colour balance for printing, unlike the older LCD screens where they varied in intensity with the angle there viewed.
>>Memory 1GB maybe OK for now but 2GB is better, they say the new MS >>operating system is more memory dependent. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Cheers, Phred. We are just coming into the 64bit processing. So my guess, it will be full on in the next 3 years. What's available now that looks good and cheap and smart - say, P4 3.2 1G ram 128M AGP - ain't gunna cope with the new generation of software.
Over the last months I have put a couple of PC's together and looked more closely at the specs as they have changed.
There is a difference between a Home PC which is kept much longer than an Office PC (work) - the office pc gets written off in 2 years and replaced. At home the PC is kept for at least 5-6 years.
Oz - 28 Sep 2006 04:37 GMT >>>Screens LCD have come of age eg Samsung. a 19" LCD are equal in size to a >>>21" CRT. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Office PC (work) - the office pc gets written off in 2 years and replaced. > At home the PC is kept for at least 5-6 years. In my 20 odd years working with computers I have found it to be just the opposite, the work PC gets kept but little Johnny wants to play the latest video game so the home PC gets relegated to the garage for dad to play doom 1 on. and little Johnny gets the wiz bang machine that now spends most of its time downloading music from the web. I have clients who still run Win 98 and are quite happy to do so, I even had a client that had win 98 put on a P4 3.2 machine to run a very expensive piece of specialised hardware that, as yet doesn't support Win XP.
Oz
k - 28 Sep 2006 09:48 GMT "Oz"
| In my 20 odd years working with computers I have found it to be just the | opposite, the work PC gets kept but little Johnny wants to play the latest [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | a client that had win 98 put on a P4 3.2 machine to run a very expensive | piece of specialised hardware that, as yet doesn't support Win XP. yup - I have a 3 colour pulsed xenon A3 film scanner hanging of the machine that does my scanning, guess what - no drivers beyond 98, so 98 is what I run on that! a lowly 650MHz box with a fast scsi card ;)
Not that sure about the 64 bit stuff yet, too few drivers, too little software. I'm happy with the speed of everything on a 1G machine even tho I have the games on a 2.4G machine.
Video, photos and audio are all edited on under 1G machines running either 98 or 2k with matrox cards.. the games machines are *barely* up to scratch and I suspect those new games that don't yet employ OS checks will soon demand far more than my newest fastest machine can handle. I have a few 600 and 800Mhz fanless EPIA microATX boards in shoebox sized cases downloading or print serving, and when I run a firewall or a small server, an old P2 does that task.
Still, I found I've settled on a few games I actually like (unreal/diablo) and none of the newer games have caught my eye in the last few years so ..
;)
k
Oz - 27 Sep 2006 15:58 GMT >> What in your opinion would be the most important parts to spend on a new >> computer to manage your photos? (screen,memory,hard drive capacity...) [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Memory 1GB maybe OK for now but 2GB is better, they say the new MS > operating system is more memory dependent. I've been running the Vista RC1 release for a bit over a week now and I quite like it, I have tried on sevral occasions to kiil it with abuse but it just blinks at me and keeps on chugging, so far so good :-) I will probably switch over to it as my main OS soon, a little background here, I run an Athlon 64 X2 processor with 2 gig of ram and the other usual bells and whistles for my job ( I'm semi retired and do some IT work on the side now, just to keep my eye in so to speak) but I still sub to a few tech newsletters and web sites, this is an interesting read on Vista's memory management http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000688.html I havnt tried it with Photoshop yet but when I do, I will be more than happy to share my expiriences with it and Vista.
Oz
> If you put together a better computer then it will not become redundant in > 2 years when you watch the specs grow - what's above will last heaps > longer.
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