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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / August 2006

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dynamic range of jpegs

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k - 23 Aug 2006 09:07 GMT
I decided to see what my jpeg only digicam can capture in the way of light
in stops in real terms, in a real situation

After reading:
“With 8 bits there are 256 possible values corresponding to decimal numbers
from 0 to 255. So with an 8 bit A/D converter you can take a range of analog
(sic)
numbers and convert them into a digital number with a range from 0-255. Now
let's ask the question "what's the dynamic range of an 8 bit A/D
converter?".

“Well, it's the ratio of the smallest signal it can record to the largest
signal. The smallest signal is "1" and the largest signal is "255", so the
dynamic range is log(255/1) = 2.4.”
(ref = http://www.photo.net/learn/drange/ )

so the 65k colours from a 16 bit image therefore have a dynamic range of 4.8

it is then extrapolated that 2.4 / 0.3 (stops) = 8 stops.. 8 bit jpegs have
a dynamic range of 8 stops (..and therefore 16 bit images must have a
dynamic range of 16 stops?)

Using this logic it is clear that jpegs have less dynamic range than other
formats.

hmmm..

from
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/blended_exposures.shtml

"Colour transparency film has a useful dynamic range of about 4-5 stops
between the lightest area with any detail and the darkest. Beyond that is
found featureless black or transparent white. Colour negative film has a
couple of additional stops and B&W film another stop or so. But, nature can
present the landscape photographers with scenes having a dynamic range of 10
stops or more — double that which slide film can handle"

it seems 'dynamic range' can mean a multitude of things..

So I got out the old Minolta V with the spot meter attachment and the Gretag
colour chart and the lowly Sony f717 which is capable of only shooting jpegs
and set to work to find what the dynamic range of the Sony actually is in
stops..

I spot metered the white and the black patches at ISO 100, 1/60th and got
readings of f8, f45 bang on.  The other patches were a little off, but given
there are 6 of them, then the white and black points having those readings
looks good.

I then shot a sequence of images (in the shade *) at f8 across 6 stops as:
1/500th , 1/250th , 1/125th  , 1/60th  , 1/30th  , 1/15th

* which is why the values below show a little more blue than a neutral
colour should.

I then fired up Irfanview and cropped then resized the images, then used
ColorCop to measure the RGB values, recorded in the table below.  Note I
applied a 50% blur to each cell to compensate for the variation in tones
between individual pixels as they were not (cannot!) be a uniform colour.

1/500th  1/250th    1/125th     1/60th       1/30th        1/15th
88,94,91 97,108,111 148,152,151 202,210,218  237,240,245   255,255,255
63,64,68 73,82,91  119,125,126  170,183,196  218,223,230   250,251,253
39,42,44 46,52,64  91,95,98     138,150,164  190,202,208   229,234,243
23,23,26 27,31,36  55,63,63     103,115,125  151,161,170   197,210,222
11,12,12 16,14,19  28,29,33     57,69,80 104, 113,125 149,  162,178
4,4,4    5,5,7     10,12,12     20,26,31     42,55,64      82,96,115

Just a note on that final value of 4,4,4 – I decided to do a shot at 1/500th
f8
With the lens cap on to record the values for the dark current which came
out to be 1,1,1 so 4,4,4 is still significant.

What does this tell us?  Firstly that my Gretag colour patches are a little
out of whack.  Second it suggests that my sensor clearly can capture more
than TEN stops of light - clearly more than the *limit* of 8 stops a jpeg is
theoretically capable of in digital terms.  It also indicates the
sensitivity curve is a little different from what you'd expect ;)

Now to do this with a REAL camera that can produce jpegs and raw / tiff file
formats to see what we can see

k
Mr.T - 23 Aug 2006 09:43 GMT
> I decided to see what my jpeg only digicam can capture in the way of light
> in stops in real terms, in a real situation
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Using this logic it is clear that jpegs have less dynamic range than other
> formats.

Glad to see you now agree with me.

> hmmm..
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> it seems 'dynamic range' can mean a multitude of things..

Glad to see you are now reading, rather than telling me it's bullshit.

> So I got out the old Minolta V with the spot meter attachment and the Gretag
> colour chart and the lowly Sony f717 which is capable of only shooting jpegs
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> than TEN stops of light - clearly more than the *limit* of 8 stops a jpeg is
> theoretically capable of in digital terms.

You have simply failed to take into account the CURVE applied by the camera
when converting the sensors RAW data into JPEG.
It's no longer "linear", which is what I have been trying to tell you all
along.

>It also indicates the
> sensitivity curve is a little different from what you'd expect ;)
>
> Now to do this with a REAL camera that can produce jpegs and raw / tiff file
> formats to see what we can see

You mean you might actually do some checking, rather than simply telling me
it's all BS :-)

MrT.
Ken Chandler - 23 Aug 2006 10:32 GMT
> Now to do this with a REAL camera that can produce jpegs and raw / tiff file
> formats to see what we can see

I have a Canon EOS 20D (if that's REAL enough :-) and a GretagMacBeth
Color Checker SG (which incorporates a classic Gretag Color Checker.

I'm happy to run through the process, probably on the weekend and shoot
some simultaneous RAW/JPG if you are keen to download my files and
report back.  Do you need to have a linear TIFF as I haven't installed
Canon's software for converting the RAW as I use ACR.

Regards, Ken

Signature

http://kenchandler.com

k - 23 Aug 2006 10:54 GMT
"Ken Chandler"

| > Now to do this with a REAL camera that can produce jpegs and raw / tiff file
| > formats to see what we can see
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|
| Regards, Ken

that'd be great Ken, thanks - I'll probably use Bibble to fiddle the raws -
anything you can provide will be fine by me.

karl
Noons - 24 Aug 2006 14:18 GMT
Thanks for this stuff, k.  Interesting brain dump, that one.

> What does this tell us?  Firstly that my Gretag colour patches are a little
> out of whack.

does anyone know how long these colour patch charts are supposed
to last as a reference?  do grey cards also change in density with age?
Almost invested in a new set of grey last weekend, my current is
just not working properly anymore, I reckon.  Either that or all my
meters are off in different directions!  :-)

> Second it suggests that my sensor clearly can capture more
> than TEN stops of light - clearly more than the *limit* of 8 stops a jpeg is
> theoretically capable of in digital terms.  It also indicates the
> sensitivity curve is a little different from what you'd expect ;)

the biggest problem in my view is that the curve that maps the
sensitivity range of each sensor to the 0-255 range of the 8bits
is not linear. Nor even logarithmic.  First: the sensor itself is not
necessarily linear in its response.  More likely a few "bumps"
here and there.  Second: the camera maker may decide to
implement a conversion algorithm that maps the individual
curve characteristics of that sensor to a given "ideal" curve,
implemented as a specific variation - or slope - of the 8bit
range of values.

Trying to match each to the other without knowing from where
you are departing from is an endless job. The number of possible
variations is astronomical.

> Now to do this with a REAL camera that can produce jpegs and raw / tiff file
> formats to see what we can see

If they are true raw files, you'll have a surprise examining
the values off the sensor.  But most go through the "raw file read"
software of that maker, which itself already applies a correction
factor with the knowledge of the true characteristics of the sensor
which only the manufacturer has.

And they said that digital tweaking was easier than
film/developer tweaking?  Pah!
;-)
k - 24 Aug 2006 16:33 GMT
"Noons"

| does anyone know how long these colour patch charts are supposed
| to last as a reference?  do grey cards also change in density with age?
| Almost invested in a new set of grey last weekend, my current is
| just not working properly anymore, I reckon.  Either that or all my
| meters are off in different directions!  :-)

not long according to the film guys who dumped theirs every few years.

We had 20 or so new grey cards at college, a box full of old ones and for
sport one day I put them all under the densitometer.  I ignored the ones a
lecturer wrote 'Grey Card' on in thick black artline, but that still left me
with around 50.  the results - WILDLY different.  colours were all over the
shop, as were the tones.

| the biggest problem in my view is that the curve that maps the
| sensitivity range of each sensor to the 0-255 range of the 8bits
| is not linear. Nor even logarithmic.  First: the sensor itself is not
| necessarily linear in its response.

few transistors are ;)

| More likely a few "bumps"
| here and there.  Second: the camera maker may decide to
| implement a conversion algorithm that maps the individual
| curve characteristics of that sensor to a given "ideal" curve,
| implemented as a specific variation - or slope - of the 8bit
| range of values.

which explains why sensors made by party 'A' can yeild so many different
results in different cameras.  The D100's we had new at college were pretty
popular initially, but after some of the students got their hands on the
Sony 717's and saw how wildly different noise was handled and how much
better the sony rendered skin tones, well..

| Trying to match each to the other without knowing from where
| you are departing from is an endless job. The number of possible
| variations is astronomical.

which is why I've limited my digital testing to almost zip.  Film was easy.
papers were easy, crikey, testing a film with 7 developers across 5 gammas
at 4-7 different dilutions was easy! ;)   I always hoped someone else would
do the digital testing and I could just keep a copy for reference.

interesting note: I thought I'd cheat one day and made up a box to fit over
the lens fitted with 16 ND patches - I figured I could a few exposures and
vary the dev times so I could get a whole raft of exposures using very
little film.  The next time I did the same thing the results were completely
out of whack even though I used the same flash light source, same distances
etc etc etc..   turns out the idea for testing films was a dud, however it
was a brilliant tool for examining different lenses for variations in
contrast! :)

| If they are true raw files, you'll have a surprise examining
| the values off the sensor.  But most go through the "raw file read"
| software of that maker, which itself already applies a correction
| factor with the knowledge of the true characteristics of the sensor
| which only the manufacturer has.

yeah, daunting hey?

| And they said that digital tweaking was easier than
| film/developer tweaking?  Pah!

hehe

it's easier for me to 'snap' a shot digitally to email to some bloke on the
other side of the world.  for anything else film sits SO much better.

k
Noons - 25 Aug 2006 17:24 GMT
> not long according to the film guys who dumped theirs every few years.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with around 50.  the results - WILDLY different.  colours were all over the
> shop, as were the tones.

Shewt!   Didn't know that.  Gonna have to renew mine, they've
been out and about for a while! Thanks.

> | If they are true raw files, you'll have a surprise examining
> | the values off the sensor.  But most go through the "raw file read"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> yeah, daunting hey?

Exactly.  That "Bayer interpolation" stuff changes curves
so much from what the sensor really sees, by the
time the raw file reader shows the stuff, we already have
a noticeable change in base parameters and curve fitting.

> it's easier for me to 'snap' a shot digitally to email to some bloke on the
> other side of the world.  for anything else film sits SO much better.

not wrong...
I know I'm biased and freely admit to it, when it comes to film.
But it stems mostly from the problems I've had with trying
to understand how the heck dig cameras process their images,
trying to predict how a shot will come out.

Tired off dig completely, when I realized that minor deltas
in exposure or light level conditions changed the curves of each
colour in essentially unpredictable ways.  Very unsettling, to
suddenly have a curtain go purple when in the previous
shot a sun reflection made it go aqua!  Stuff like that.

Sure: I can GIMP or Photoshop the crap out of those things and
get the smooth gradations back, just like in film.  But I've got better
things to do with my time than sit around a PC trying all sorts
of masked transformations.

BTW: Canon's 5d and 1dsm2 come sooo close to what I like,
it's not even funny. But not perfect. Not as predictable
as I'm used to in film.  Not yet. Getting there, though.
prep@prep.synonet.com - 25 Aug 2006 15:06 GMT
> does anyone know how long these colour patch charts are supposed
> to last as a reference?  do grey cards also change in density with age?

Yes, but it should not be much. Wear and dirt on the other hand...

> Almost invested in a new set of grey last weekend, my current is
> just not working properly anymore, I reckon.  Either that or all my
> meters are off in different directions!  :-)

That would be the meters not the cards. If the cards where off, all
the meter readings would be out in the same amount.

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Noons - 26 Aug 2006 13:21 GMT
> > Almost invested in a new set of grey last weekend, my current is
> > just not working properly anymore, I reckon.  Either that or all my
> > meters are off in different directions!  :-)
>
> That would be the meters not the cards. If the cards where off, all
> the meter readings would be out in the same amount.

not necessarily.  I keep one card with each slr body.
If I use the same card on different slrs, their meters all
come up with very similar values, within 1/3 stop.  The
F and the F2 come up exactly the same: their meters
were both calibrated by the same guy.  If only I could find
a guy that could do the same for the F4...

It's when I meter with each slr's card/body combo that I'm
getting divergence...
 
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