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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / May 2006

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3000 megapixel camera on proposed telescope

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Ken Chandler - 20 May 2006 21:42 GMT
but where does one find a 30TB CF card?

<http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn9200&feedId=online-news_rs
s20>

Fairly light on details about the digital capture aspect, in fact, I think I
already disclosed as much as the article.

KC
--
http://kenchandler.com
Jeff R - 21 May 2006 01:35 GMT
> but where does one find a 30TB CF card?

<http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn9200&feedId=online-news_rs
> s20>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> http://kenchandler.com

Yeah.
Its a shame they opted for that crap kit lens (or mirror, in this case).
Can you imagine how harsh the bokeh would be with a bleeding great big hole
in the middle of the mirror?
And DOF! How the hell are you supposed to control DOF with a fixed aperture?

--
Jeff R.
(don't get me started on noise in that sensor...)
kosh - 21 May 2006 07:30 GMT
>>but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Jeff R.
> (don't get me started on noise in that sensor...)

and your depth of field is going to be how many light years to how many
light year?!?!?!?!?!?!? not an issue at these long distances! Of more
importance is light gathering ability.
rb - 25 May 2006 03:51 GMT
> but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> http://kenchandler.com

pffft, obviously would be a microdrive card. there's no such thing as a
30 tb cf:)

rb
ColinD - 25 May 2006 12:40 GMT
> but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> http://kenchandler.com

Typical New Scientist crap, I think.  Consider the sensor. A 5D has
about 12 megapixels on a 1.5-inch area chip. A 3 Gigabyte sensor with
similar pixel density will be 3000/12*1.5 square inches in area - that's
a 375-square-inch sensor, nearly 20 inches square.  I figure that would
be impossible to manufacture.  Perhaps they intend to join up 250 5D
chips?

Either the sensor size is wrongly reported, or the article is short on
believability.

Colin D.
Glen F - 26 May 2006 01:22 GMT
> Typical New Scientist crap, I think.  Consider the sensor.
> A 5D has about 12 megapixels on a 1.5-inch area chip.
> A 3 Gigabyte sensor with similar pixel density will be
> 3000/12*1.5 square inches in area - that's a 375-square-
> inch sensor, nearly 20 inches square.

Well, 12 inch diameter silicon wafers are rapidly becoming
the standard for consumer LSI chip manufacture, so it should
be easy to make a one-off, ~8.5 inch square sensor, right off
the shelf.  And astronomical sensors are routinely mosaiced
(join lines a few pixels wide are no big issue).  So four
8.5s will readily make you a 17"x17".  The problem seems
to lie in building a mirror system which will focus that
wide, without excessive aberration.
k - 30 May 2006 06:45 GMT
| > Typical New Scientist crap, I think.  Consider the sensor.
| > A 5D has about 12 megapixels on a 1.5-inch area chip.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
| to lie in building a mirror system which will focus that
| wide, without excessive aberration.

Kodak technical pan film had a res of 100 lines per mm (depending on dev -
it can go higher than that to around 300lpmm

5400 pixel per inch scanners are available even to consumers now..

5400ppi x a sheet of stock standard 10x10 film only = 290,000 megapixels

$300 million buys a lot of film and film probably costs a LOT less to
store.. Be nice too when scanners improve to be able to go back and rescan
those sheets to find the bits the scanner might have missed. probably
cheaper too than rebuilding the whole setup around a newer model sensor.

Still, it looks good on paper I guess to own a forking great sensor

k
Glen F - 30 May 2006 08:40 GMT
> Kodak technical pan film had a res of 100 lines per mm
> (depending on dev - it can go higher than that to around
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> $300 million buys a lot of film and film probably costs
> a LOT less to store..

Doubt that, especially if easy accessibility is a goal.
Can film do this -
worldwind://goto/world=SDSS&lat=-1.09882&lon=0.10304&alt=12644
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~anon10/0.10304E_1.09882S.jpg

[Hint: "worldwind://" needs NASA World Wind 1.3.4+ to view.
This is a grab from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, an "all
of sky" survey which is a forerunner to the thread topic
project.]

Anyway, film is just about dead for astronomy, even for
amateurs.  The benefit lies mostly in the sensitivity:
resolution:noise trade off.  Even quite basic refrigerated
sensors easily beat sensitised silver halide chemistry, it
seems.
k - 31 May 2006 02:37 GMT
| > Kodak technical pan film had a res of 100 lines per mm
| > (depending on dev - it can go higher than that to around
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|
| Doubt that, especially if easy accessibility is a goal.

doubt away, facts are facts.  Admittedly I'm citing a slow, IR sensitive
monochromatic film but hyping films was always a reality - and it's still a
shame that Agfa's patented formate doped filmsa never saw the light of day -
a 10 fold speed increase would have been a nice thing.

and a $10 sheet of film still costs less than the price of the hard drive(s)
needed to store the same amount of info..

though you're right, accessibility is much easier with digital - once you
have the million dollar computer to handle all that data.  of course, a pair
of eyes and a loupe are all that are needed for film... but interpretting
all that data (!!! ;)

| Can film do this -
| worldwind://goto/world=SDSS&lat=-1.09882&lon=0.10304&alt=12644
| http://members.optusnet.com.au/~anon10/0.10304E_1.09882S.jpg

have people forgotten that film was doing this before digital came along?
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/raycash/rosej.jpg

also see http://www.thebarrens.com/barrens.html for some cracking astro
shots

| Anyway, film is just about dead for astronomy, even for
| amateurs.  The benefit lies mostly in the sensitivity:
| resolution:noise trade off.  Even quite basic refrigerated
| sensors easily beat sensitised silver halide chemistry, it
| seems.

yet resolution digital is getting now has been possible for so long with
film.  I know it's dead - digital is so much more 'convenient'

so they tell us

k
kosh - 26 May 2006 01:59 GMT
>>but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

you forget these projects are frequently an international
colaboration... so have access to quite a biut of funding.... and also
have access to a range of hardware us consumers only dream of.

While I have not read the recent article.... I have heard about this in
development for a couple of years now. I think the figures are correct.

Don't forget... mass manufacturing sensors for cameras has a whole set
of issues research does not have to seal with... such as keeping the
cost at a pre-set level.... ie a price a cunsumer would be prepared to pay.

I am aware of at least one other experiment which drew it's silicon
sensors from an overseas government source.....

I don't think you can quite base cutting edge research against what we
consumers get acccess to.

kosh
Phil Kempster - 26 May 2006 07:00 GMT
>>> but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
>>>
>>> <http://www.newscientistspace.com/article.ns?id=dn9200&feedId=online-news_rs
>>>
>>> s20>
<snip>

>>> KC
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> be impossible to manufacture.  Perhaps they intend to join up 250 5D
>> chips?
<snip>

>> Colin D.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> kosh

All it'd need would be an active array of 1000 3Meg P&S cameras.
It could be set up as a long base line array to increase the effective
aperture.

And you'd have a fair bit of change left over from the $300M for the
software to run it!

Phil
Ron Glasson - 26 May 2006 10:58 GMT
>>>> but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Phil

May be that the "camera" is more like a lot of remote sensing equipment
(satellite) where the sensor is a single linear array of CCD's and the
"picture" is the result of a "push broom" type sweep of the sky. The sensor
is not that large but the resultant image is a composite of a series of
"lines" which simply become rows of pixels. This is how it is done on some
remote sensing satellites. SPOT  (Systeme Probatoire d'Observation de la
Terra , (French)) being one.
ColinD - 26 May 2006 12:24 GMT
> >>>> but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
> >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> remote sensing satellites. SPOT  (Systeme Probatoire d'Observation de la
> Terra , (French)) being one.

Well, reading the article in the OP's link, it is a single telescope
with a 3-mirror setup, and from the illustration of the thing, it has a
single focus plane that is supposed to have 3 billion pixels.  Arrays of
sensors would be no good because of gaps in the image.

Colin D.
Ron Glasson - 26 May 2006 14:13 GMT
>> >>>> but where does one find a 30TB CF card?
>> >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>
> *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Hard to tell from the illustration in the OP link what the final "focus
plane" will be, as it just looks like most gimbal mounted telescopes. The
three mirrors just focus the field of view. I took my cue from:

"This means that its field of view will span 4° - equivalent to eight full
moons - compared with the 0.1° seen by other large telescopes." and "image
the entire sky across three nights, producing an expected 30 terabytes of
data per night"

Satellite bourne earth sensors have a field of view (FOV) of about around 12
to 15 degrees (Landsat 3, Landsat 5) from an altitude of about 800km,
compared to airbourne scanners with a FOV of up to 80-90 degrees required to
get a reasonable
ground swarth width from airbourne height, say up to 70,000 feet (U2).   My
reading of the 4 degree FOV of this telescope is that it is not getting a
whole sky view instantaneously, hence the 3 nights for data collection.  30
terabytes of data depends to some degree on the spectral / radiometric
resolution of the sensor. That is how many bits the data is collected at for
each pixel and how many bands it collects for each pixel.  Landsat 5
typically 8 bit 7 bands. (AVHRIS has 224 bands). Full scene image of 185km x
185km is about 5286 x 5286 pixels square (raw) 7400 pixels map corrected
(resampled).  The data quickly adds up in volume. I vagely remember a
reference to Australias daily weather satellite photo (1km pixel resolution)
equals about 3 Terrabytes a year, so the 30 terrabytes over 3 nights may be
in the ball park, it is a big sky  :)

The gap issue is no issue. There are many remote sensing platforms today
that use broom and or multiple sensors. Landsat 7 uses 16 for each pixel.
One is designated a reference and the others adjusted to comply. This
ensures redundancy in a platform which is hard to get at to maintain.  Even
so it does have a duff sensor (died after it was put in orbit) which is
radiometrically corrected by adjacent pixel samples. The missing row is zero
written then an algortihm applied to sample adjacent pixels, average and
fill in the missing data. Digital cameras have dead pixels in the sensors
from manufacture, these are "mapped" out in the camera at its time of
manufacture in a similar way.

I am a little sceptical like you, I find it hard to envision the manufacture
of a 3b flat plane sensor. I just know that technically it is easier to
build a remote sensor in the same vein as typical geospatial scanners
already in use. I suspect the "3b camera" is no more than an earth mapper
turned skyward, with a bit of journalistic licence  ;)

For now I will just have to wait for more detail from the source....
kosh - 27 May 2006 06:02 GMT
> Satellite bourne earth sensors have a field of view (FOV) of about around 12
> to 15 degrees (Landsat 3, Landsat 5) from an altitude of about 800km,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> equals about 3 Terrabytes a year, so the 30 terrabytes over 3 nights may be
> in the ball park, it is a big sky  :)

and hence why there is an issue getting so much data from the telescope
site to a university/research site. Exactly the reason a dedicated optic
fibre network is being considered for the Narabrai 7 telescope array and
Parks!

kosh
 
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