Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / June 2006
Un repearable 20D - Canon cant clean dust out
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Sandy Barrie - 27 Mar 2006 14:16 GMT Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any other photographers out there have had the same problem.
Put my Canon 20D in to have the sensor cleaned for a few spots of dust on 16th Dec (2005). since then it has come back several times and each time with more dust inside it.
They eventualy totaly replaced the sensor last time, and my first test shot was full of spots... Straight back again.
It is now going into the fourth months they have had it, and several promisses from their Tecks in Sydney have come and gone.
I even took to sending get well cards to the camera...
At a meeting with the brisbane rep last month he just laughed at me...
So I have filed with the Office of Fair trading...
Has any one else out there had any similar problems with Canon or with 20D's..
The Photographic Trader will be publishing my simple dust test in commin issue (since it is not sponsored by any Camera Makers it will take a chance)
At a Photoshop lecture in America, ever camera in room was tested, and all 300 falied to come even close to passing...
Regards
Sandy Barrie Hon LM AIPP
michael - 27 Mar 2006 16:27 GMT > Has any one else out there had any similar problems with Canon or with > 20D's.. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sandy Barrie > Hon LM AIPP I have had problems with canon techs. It involved a 9900F scanner(superceded by the 9950F). 3 months after I bought it, it blew a cathode (they had two in the lid) took it back to get fixed, and came back not fixed with a note on it reading, check drivers and software. after 3 months of bullshit with canon I had a lengthy talk with ACCC then took the scanner back to place of purchase and demanded a refund because it was faulty and did not do what was promised.
funny thing is canon reps in the USA were very helpful and were aware of the fault in the 9900F model. they where quicker at responding to emails and phone calls. just goes to show what a sh.t attitude licenced aussie techs (by what ever brand)have. it's not just canon either Radio Rentals, Harvey norman, IT warehouse just to name a few.
they dont give a sh.t what they sell as long as they sell it. when it comes back for a fault they don't want to know, the only way to get what you want is to know the fair trades act backwards and scare them into submission.
experiences like this put me off buying any canon DSLR. hope Sigma bring out a 10mp DSLR with foveon sensor i'll by that, F*** canon. :)
Shtoink - 27 Mar 2006 21:49 GMT I havent really had a problem with dust as such, but I have a consistant 'red dot' in all of my photos. Been trying to find the time to take it to Canon, but they tell me it will take up to a month to fix. I cant afford to go without my 20d for that long. Coming into a quiet season tho, so I'll send it in and keep my fingers crossed that they'll be quick.
Is this red dot a dead pixel? or could that just be dust too?
> Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any other > photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Sandy Barrie > Hon LM AIPP Sandy Barrie - 30 Mar 2006 06:48 GMT Hi, yes a red do pixel in every phot is s asign of a high pixel (permamnetly ON) And they only way to fix that is replace the chip.
Regards
Sandy
> I havent really had a problem with dust as such, but I have a consistant > 'red dot' in all of my photos. Been trying to find the time to take it to [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>Sandy Barrie >>Hon LM AIPP googlegroups@sensation.net.au - 30 Mar 2006 23:27 GMT > Hi, yes a red do pixel in every phot is s asign of a high pixel > (permamnetly ON) And they only way to fix that is replace the chip. Actually, this is incorrect. With Canon bodies they simply map it out in software, which uses the values of adjacent pixels to reproduce something reasonable to replace the hot/dead pixel. With the 5D the remapping is quietly done when you select "clean sensor"; with other models it needs to be done at a service centre.
My 1DsII now has 3 hot (red) pixels which didn't exist when I first purchased it... accumulating dead or hot pixels over time is just another part of digital life.
POTD.com.au - 03 Apr 2006 02:38 GMT >> Hi, yes a red do pixel in every phot is s asign of a high pixel >> (permamnetly ON) And they only way to fix that is replace the chip. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > purchased it... accumulating dead or hot pixels over time is just > another part of digital life. Another way to get rid of them is to shoot RAW and process in Capture One. I have a few hot pixels on my 20D but I never see them unless I shoot a JPEG (which I never do unless I am looking for hot pixels :-) I have not looked for any on the 1DS2 and don't really plan to unless I have an image effected at some stage.
Rusty My Gallery: http://www.pixelpix.com.au
D-Mac - 27 Mar 2006 23:27 GMT > Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any > other photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Sandy Barrie > Hon LM AIPP Sandy... Dust is a fact of life with DSLRs and as much as you might presently fear cleaning it yourself, this is what you will have to do. Relying on someone who charges your $65 for the job and does maybe 40 a day, is hardly getting personalized service with attention to detail. 10 minutes average. 15 minutes tops to do the task.
The standard practice for cleaning at Canon is to "blow" the dust away. Your dust problem may in fact be a film of oxidation. Almost all new DSLRs (or Canon ones at any rate) can have this film or haze on the sensor cover, just like the muck on the glass of a "new" picture frame.
If you are in Brisbane and near the Bayside area, I can show you how to clean it both wet and dry. The thing is, you are not really cleaning the sensor itself, just the cover over it.
The so called "cleaning kits" you pay $70 for are a total rip off. A $2 brush and a $6 can of compressed air from Disk Smith is all you need for regular maintenance. Occasionally you might need to wet swab the thing but that is only if you expose your camera to a smoke filled environment or industrial pollution for long periods of time.
I would be particularly worried to hear the Sensor was replaced because of a dust problem and would, myself, take the camera away from Canon and get it cleaned elsewhere before going any further. There is an independent camera repairer in Capalaba (15 minutes from Canon hill, who will do the job without losing your warranty status or like I said at the start, learn to do it yourself.
Avery - 28 Mar 2006 00:41 GMT >> Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any >> other photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >will do the job without losing your warranty status or like I said at >the start, learn to do it yourself. Excellent advice.
Except you need to be careful with canned air. If you get any of the propellant on the sensor or if the cold air causes condensation, it can be a real bugger to clean.
D-Mac - 28 Mar 2006 01:35 GMT >>>Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any >>>other photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > propellant on the sensor or if the cold air causes condensation, it > can be a real bugger to clean. The air is to electrostaticly charge the brush, not blast at the sensor!
Avery - 28 Mar 2006 03:27 GMT >>>>Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any >>>>other photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > >The air is to electrostaticly charge the brush, not blast at the sensor! That makes sense too.
However anyone reading your initial response may have decided to go and get a can of air and start blasting away. Definitely not a good idea.
googlegroups@sensation.net.au - 28 Mar 2006 06:09 GMT > > Except you need to be careful with canned air. If you get any of the > > propellant on the sensor or if the cold air causes condensation, it > > can be a real bugger to clean. > > The air is to electrostaticly charge the brush, not blast at the sensor! When I charge my brush I first start the spray and then move the brush into it a second or two later.
Personally, I've never had much luck with the dry method. I ended up using my expensive "dry clean" brushes as wet cleaners.
http://satin.sensation.net.au/rowan/sensorclean.html
Sandy Barrie - 30 Mar 2006 06:51 GMT Hi, I think you missed my point. the Dust is INSIDE the sensor, and nothing will clean that out... not even canon.
I can easily clean the sensor, and have done many times with my 300D...
It is now going into the fourth months of them trying to fix it, and still no show.
Now inthe hands of Fair Trading, who also count not believe the situation.
Regards
Sandy
>> Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any >> other photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > will do the job without losing your warranty status or like I said at > the start, learn to do it yourself. Jasen - 30 Mar 2006 12:19 GMT >> Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any other >> photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > brush and a $6 can of compressed air from Disk Smith is all you need for > regular maintenance. What sort of brush are you using, and I found in my experience, using an acrylic brush (I think) and canned air, I saw a film come off the brush onto the sensor cover, and I had washed the brush with dishwashing liquid and rinsed it with deionised water from the work lab and still it smeared, but only after blowing it with air....has this happened with the Dick Smith air you have??
Occasionally you might need to wet swab the thing
> but that is only if you expose your camera to a smoke filled environment > or industrial pollution for long periods of time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > job without losing your warranty status or like I said at the start, learn > to do it yourself. Colin D - 28 Mar 2006 01:23 GMT > Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any > other photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > At a Photoshop lecture in America, ever camera in room was tested, and > all 300 falied to come even close to passing... How are you testing for spots on the sensor? If you are shooting a blank wall at f/22 or f/32 or whatever the smallest aperture on the camera is and then looking at the image in Photoshop and blowing the contrast sky-high, you are always going to see some spots in the image. What you see when you do that is out of all proportion to the actual contrast settings used with a normal image. How often do you increase the contrast in a regular image by more than, say, 5 or 10%? Then you shouldn't look at the test image at more than that.
It's a fact that most dust spots seen with blank-wall testing simply are not visible in a normal image. When you can see spots in your images, then that's the time to clean your sensor.
I tried the blank wall test with my Canon, and was amazed to see all these spots which I didn't know were there - and which weren't visible in my images - so I got my trusty rubber blower and blew several shots of air into the camera (in sensor clean mode, of course). When I retested, I nearly had a heart attack. It wan't only worse, it was *incredibly* worse, like the camera had the black plague.
What I belatedly found was that rubber bulb blowers are often contaminated with microscopic bits of rubber, which get blown all over the sensor. I had then to buy a bottle of Eclipse fluid - ultra-clean methanol - and a pack of pec-pad swabs, and physically clean the sensor cover (actually the anti-aliasing filter). After four cleanings I finally had a clean sensor, except for one spot in the lower left corner. I then took a few test shots of normal subjects - the house, the flower garden, etc., and even though I knew where the spot was, I couldn't find it in the images.
One practical tip is to avoid using very small apertures. With APS-C sized sensors, depth of field considerations rarely call for anything smaller than f/8, f/11 at most, and at these apertures, and wider, the spots simply do not register.
As for that Photoshop story, it sounds more like an extreme test that showed a non-existent 'problem', sort of a party piece act. None of those cameras were taking unusable images for their owners, I would wager.
Also bear in mind that Canon's official stance on cleaning sensors is to blow air at the sensor from no closer than the lens mount, just in case the battery dies, and/or the shutter closes and the mirror comes down onto the brush or swab. In practice, thousands of photogs clean their sensors with swabs, or statically-charged brushes, with no problems.
Boiling it all down, get some Eclipse fluid and swabs, clean the damn thing yourself, and don't sweat over extreme, unrealistic tests.
Colin D.
PS: Don't blame Canon cameras because of poor service. *All* digital slrs have the same 'problem'. A problem is what you make it.
Sandy Barrie - 30 Mar 2006 07:08 GMT Hi,
in my studios i am shooting desk top product shots.
My lights are turned almost down to quater power. the camera is set to 100ASA and has a polariser on the front solely because it is also a good ND filters, and still I am shooting at F22...
So avoiding small apatures is out of the question when shooting jewellery maco shots... I need more depth not less.
And I have dust filters on all my ventilations poinst. and the lens that I was using was rarely ever changed for any other in 6 months.
And even at that all the posts show up most claerly in the white background surrounding the subject... And that is what takes hours to retouch out if you shoot 40 shots a days. than that is an unbearable situation.
And Yes they are very noticable even in that situatsion... before I start dropping out backgrounds so as to drop that photo into another.. that is when the snow storm shows up even worse as dots all over.
As for dust being a way of life... I believe I read somewhere in canons adds that they had a superiour dust seal... hahahah
I have all the compressed air I need from my own compressor( fitted with moisture and particle removers) and nothing will remove dust that is INSIDE the sensor... i can blow away any mount of dust on top of the sensor. but the sensors seal obvioulsy is penetratable to a point when cleaning may actualy be blowing more dust in.
And indead several times it actualy came back from its so called OEM cleans with MORE spots than what it went down for.
The dust may or mau not have been my fault. that is now not thepoint ofthe debate... It is canons extreme tardyness...
What would you do if canon took three of four months to repair you camera for anything....!!!
As for extreme, how many people outthere manipulate their images beyond what the input is... Almost every one I speak to does something. and many amatuers do it to far great extreams than me...
And if you thing that my test that shows up dust is too much.
Please tell me what you think is the acceptable amount of spots you can live with on every image. 5 ? 10 ? 20 ?..
the last time It whent back I lost counts at 60 !!!!
regards
Sandy
>>Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any >>other photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > PS: Don't blame Canon cameras because of poor service. *All* digital > slrs have the same 'problem'. A problem is what you make it. jjphoto - 02 Apr 2006 00:30 GMT Sandy, have you considered that you are doing the wrong thing, not Canon? Though it's fair to expect to get a ‘reasonably’ clean camera back from Canon, you are unreasonable in your expectation that the sensor would stay clean for any period of time.
Do you NOT accept that dust is a fact of life with large apertures and digital cameras, ie the way you are using the camera?
You've seen for your self that a camera cleaned on many different occasions comes back with dust so why are you trying to do something that is intrinsically not practical.
Product shooters that I know use medium format with digital backs, the advantage of which is easy sensor cleaning. Even so you can never remove all the dust.
Why don't you consider the Olympus, I've never used it myself but it may be better suited to your specific need, even if not for other uses you may have.
JJ
Sandy Barrie - 02 Apr 2006 05:10 GMT Hi,
Yes I agree with much of what you said.
But when I put my canon into being cleaned it had about 5 spots in it, when it came back the first time it has over 20, and the next time it came back I lost count at 60 major spots... that is not cleaning at all. That is stuffing things up in a big way...
Five may be a bloody nusiance in photoshop to clean up but 60+ is beyond all reason, and far beyond any practical usage...
While I had hoped that canon may have been able to nock the numbers of spots down from five, which is a not un reasonable request, what canon did was totaly unreasonable. (3 or 2 spots I could live with). They MADE the problem FAR far worse... and in that they have breached their duty of care. That is what I am complaing about, and the possible fault in their design of dust seals.
Yes I agree dust is here to stay and Dust may be a fact of life, yes, but dust that any end USER can clean off. Dust that is on top of the sensors protective glass covers. the users can get to that and do what they will.
That is not an unseasonable request to at least have a sensor, that any user can by any means clean, with out having a to send to a specialuist for a major service and overhaul..
And cerainly not any situation where the dust that gets INSIDE the sensors protective coverings.. When that happens there is only one recourse. It has to go back to the OEM to be cleaned, unless your hae the skill sand equipment and knowledge to diss assemble and put back together such delacit items, and if they cant clean it, it is often for the junk pile, as time is money, and it may be cheaper to replace than retouch.
We may be able to live with some dust, but it is a different thing when it comes to ANY clients. And believe me they can post a fault a mile away, that we often cant see with a loupe...
And i find this whole saga a totaly rediculious situation, given that modern technology should make the dust seals work. The manufacturing tolerances today is measured in Angstrom... We should all hope and expect that the OEMs could make their equipment at leqast live up to the advertising.. well that is what much OEM's hype leads us to believe..
Why cant they make a totaly sealed chip and protective glass in one unit.
Product cameras such are the hasselblad backs and such start in the $30,000 and up. a friend has an $90,000 one. and he has no end of trouble also, even though the quality is superb. You have to have the income to go with it... and many photographers now are strugelling to keep up with ever increasing costs, which still break many. (I seem to remember A kodak back of 11meg a few years ago that was in the $42,000 range)
But for those large amounts of money for theode super backs (great if you win the lottery, or have high end clients) money spent on slightly lesser can buy complete systems. (and often the $30,000 is JUST the back, before you add exhorbitant and exotic cameras on the front. (My hasselblad that I bought secondhand in 1973 for $100 still works well, but nothing I have seen today will fit it... Mamiya announced they were making a 22meg camera... that is realy not much step up from 16meg of the top canon. And many ofthe older large back were in the 11meg range...
there simly has to be a solution to this problem... and to dust as well.
Regards
Sandy
> Sandy, have you considered that you are doing the wrong thing, not Canon? > Though it's fair to expect to get a ‘reasonably’ clean camera back from Canon, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > JJ Peter James Neal - 29 Mar 2006 10:19 GMT >> *All* digital slrs have the same 'problem'. A problem is what you make it.
After reading this thread i'm glad i brought the Olympus DSLR with the SoniceWaveFliter & the Pixel Mapping function to keep the DustBunnies off my sensor.
Interesting comment about electro-charging the brush with the compressed air can... Would a plastic comb & a NZ wool jersey work just as well? :-)
PjN
D-Mac - 29 Mar 2006 11:15 GMT >>>*All* digital slrs have the same 'problem'. A problem is what you make > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > PjN That depends of if your are wearing wellies at the time :-)
Marli - 15 Apr 2006 03:45 GMT The main reason I gave Canon the flick.. They have no service at all..
> Hi, I am having a good run in with Canon at present, and ask if any other > photographers out there have had the same problem. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Sandy Barrie > Hon LM AIPP Andrew Hennell - 15 Apr 2006 04:14 GMT > The main reason I gave Canon the flick.. They have no service at all.. and yet our local newspaper group switched TO Canon from Nikon because Canon offered them much better service, including loan bodies, loan lenses, overnight freight of the loan items, quick turnaround on service, etc. This alone meant it was easier for the company to go with Canon than stay with Nikon and carry their own backup bodies, lenses, etc.
Of course, for us mere mortals who do not have a corporate 'fleet' of some 20+ cameras, we suffer.
kosh - 15 Apr 2006 09:53 GMT > The main reason I gave Canon the flick.. They have no service at all.. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >>Sandy Barrie >>Hon LM AIPP while I tend to agree they coul ddo much better.... if you gave them the flick due to lack of service.... then in my experience you may as well go without a camera.... cause it will not get much better from others... in fact, as a "pro" (member of aipp) if you deal with their pro services division... it is the best in the industry.
kosh
Marli - 03 Jun 2006 13:55 GMT Cant complain with Nikon service. They gave me a D2X to use while I waited a while for a D200 that I ordered.
I needed a new sensor for one of my D70's, again a camera to replace it with while they changed the sensor (Sensor was free), and it took only 4 days to get the parts and fix..
I once tried to get a focus point LED fixed on my canon gear.. after 6 weeks I gave up.
>> The main reason I gave Canon the flick.. They have no service at all.. >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > kosh Sandy Barrie - 23 Jun 2006 05:50 GMT Hi,
yes I used their pro section. Still did not help.
The only thing that helped was sending the managing director a sarcastic get well card/poem and asked him to read it to the camer to lift its spirits... Got his attention, but still took a month after that to get it back, still with two spots of dust in a brand spanking new sensor...
Mind you the first card/poem did not do the trick
Ode to an absent Friend/Camera.
Oh’ 20D, for where – out - thou I’m lost, bereft, without you now. You buttons I so long to press, My cheek pines your LCD’s caress
I wonder what’s become your fate, Reports of you have come so late. Arrival here, now postulate.
Laid low by little specks of dust, The tripod, mate, now starts to rust. Your gift in RAW was heaven sent, Now, flash card lies here, lifeless, spent.!
I dream my loss an apparition, thoughts finders-view now cloud my vision, Malaise twill go must be my mission.
Your friend, the flash now sits and waits, Its batteries charged, just for you, mate.
O’ spirits great, I beseech of you, Holy intervention in ‘repairs’ que. Decembers parting, now long past, Pray “gods of silicon” this will not last.
Each day, I now reflect on you, Lyrical’s Waxed as to my view. High resolution all I lust, Sweet lovely pixels – minus dust.
Photoshop now seems dank and slow, with Bridge’ no ranks for me to show.
In mornful cry, I shout the refrain, “gott straffe the dust” that caused your pain.
My 20D, the friend I’ve lost, It’s Time - not pain has been my cost. Lack of your presence, mate, leaves me poor, Thank god, t’was never dropped on floor…
O’ beloved little Canon do not fret, I have not bought a Nikon, yet…. If far too much you think I pun, Just ponder for me, tis’ been no fun…
But the second one realy made the Managing director laugh...
Ode to an absent 20D Camera 2.
Not dropped from high, Or crushed below. No Strike, no bash, no shocking blow. Still dry it is, and will remain, Not wet in floods, not drowned in rain. Of all the trials Great Gods could send, Was trifling dust caused 20D’s end.
O’ 20D twas doomed from start, Your Box‘s seal was the safest part, Regret I now have learned too late, Opening the box you came in sealed your fate. Not safe out side for your birth Cocoon, Cosseted from dust the cardboard womb.
How cruels this world we live in is for sure, And tribulations that mankind endure. So high our hopes in Technical Quality, But problems we create from what we cant see.
The enemy cruel, so hard to chase, It hides lurking in darkened inner-space, Help-less be we so hard to mend, From things not seen till exposures end. The stamp of Photoshop can not reclaim, The data lost to dusts cruel game.
Twith devotion’s care I treated 20D right. Synced-colour with love, till charged at night. In dangers way, you’ve never been, Not out of sight I’ve let lens unseen. What sin was mine, to share your fate, Deprived of a friend, so long I wait. Bereft with out my digital friend, O’ when will 20D’s sad saga end.
In spirit broken, sad my eyes, Unframing, look to vivid skys. Grandeurs sights now an unfixed scene, 20D’s not there to catch their beam. Colours bright do now O’ so offend, A torture with out my one-eyed friend. In textures once both did delight, Exposures long into the night.
What immortal Fates made earthly blow, To cause the dust that laid you low.
My mistake I made, sending to repair, No parts were broke, you languish there. OEM’s cant fix what isn’t broke, But can neither clean by mortal stroke.. They try futile, to wash your ‘face’, But merry you’ve led their tecks a chase.
Try they as may, but not as must, To eradicate the Devils Dust.
Damnation eternal’s not only in hell, It’s in hope waiting, for repairs as well.
My words for a friend does my pen fast roll. But time, and pain have wrung their toll, Soon ink will curdle to vitriol.
Regards, Sandy Hon LM AIPP (and starving poet)
>> The main reason I gave Canon the flick.. They have no service at all.. >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > kosh hyperoglyphe - 23 Jun 2006 11:36 GMT > Hi,
> yes I used their pro section. Still did not help. > > The only thing that helped was sending the managing director a sarcastic > get well card/poem and asked him to read it to the camer to lift its > spirits... Got his attention, but still took a month after that to get it > back, still with two spots of dust in a brand spanking new sensor... [...]
My first 20D was a warrant nightmare last year until replaced with a new one. Mainboard failure. One visit, I watched an employee lay it on its back to take the lens off to record SN and filled it with dust. The sensor was also not very good The replacement camera is in excellent condition with an excellent sensor and going strong.
I purchased a 30D before Easter and it performed well. However Broome "Staircase to the moon" shots showed some failed and stuck pixels. (2 red & green? blue? + 3 dead). The camera was put in for repair. 7 weeks for return with a new sensor (reported delay was because the sensor had to be shipped in). New sensor is excellent and clean. 1 week since return, 200+ shots (including night.)
I'm a little surprised they didn't just replace the camera..
Some would say you may get a worse sensor, but if it starts off life a bit stuffed, what will it be like a couple of years down the track?
Thank you for the "Ode to Camera 20D 2". You may have initiated a bit of repair care at Sydney.
If you like the 20D, the spot meter on the 30D makes it far more useful and it was goodCanon recogised quickly the main complaint about the otherwise excellent 20D.
Dave
kosh - 24 Jun 2006 09:57 GMT not much left to say it's obvious words don't get in your way not quite sure how to get one up other than advise you always...always carry a backup!
kosh
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 170 lines] >> >> kosh kosh - 24 Jun 2006 09:57 GMT and as a side note.... love the poem!
kosh
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 170 lines] >> >> kosh
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