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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / Australian Photography / November 2005

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Why so expensive?

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Dogfart - 26 Nov 2005 09:15 GMT
http://www.mainlinephoto.com.au/category17_1.htm
Graham Fountain - 26 Nov 2005 09:41 GMT
> http://www.mainlinephoto.com.au/category17_1.htm

Very high quality, built in very small quantities (ie, not your mass
produced nikon/canon etc). Even with that taken into account it's still
a little more expensive than I'd expect something like that would cost.
Perhaps it's targetted toward people with bucket loads of cash too.
Rob - 26 Nov 2005 10:43 GMT
>> http://www.mainlinephoto.com.au/category17_1.htm
>>
> Very high quality, built in very small quantities (ie, not your mass
> produced nikon/canon etc). Even with that taken into account it's still
> a little more expensive than I'd expect something like that would cost.
> Perhaps it's targetted toward people with bucket loads of cash too.

This type of camera/lens makes panoramic prints stand up and look at you.

At that price makes mine look good then - should I place it on the
market  - any offers!
dylan - 26 Nov 2005 11:55 GMT
> http://www.mainlinephoto.com.au/category17_1.htm

It's linhof.

If you want a panoramic and spend less cash look for a Noblex, or use a DSLR
and stitching software.
k - 26 Nov 2005 12:53 GMT
| > http://www.mainlinephoto.com.au/category17_1.htm
|
| It's linhof.
|
| If you want a panoramic and spend less cash look for a Noblex, or use a DSLR
| and stitching software.

..like autostitch

free panoramic photo stitcher software:
http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/autostitch/autostitch.html

the gallery of images is really nice too
http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/panogallery/panogallery.html

k
Andrew Hennell - 26 Nov 2005 20:10 GMT
> "dylan" <no@nospam.com> wrote in message
> | If you want a panoramic and spend less cash look for a Noblex, or use a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the gallery of images is really nice too
> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/panogallery/panogallery.html

Mountains look ok, but not impressed with the streetscape or the final
photo with lawn/trees/buildings.

Seems it has no problem with distant objects, but the perspective seems
shot with closer or busier scenes - which makes sense as you're swinging
a lense about, not taking a single-point-of-view image.
From Douglas - 26 Nov 2005 23:34 GMT
>>"dylan" <no@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>| If you want a panoramic and spend less cash look for a Noblex, or use a
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> shot with closer or busier scenes - which makes sense as you're swinging
> a lense about, not taking a single-point-of-view image.

Might interest you Andrew...
I recently bought "Stitcher" (OK so it's $700 worth) it is a real
professional Pano maker. I don't get a lot of Panos to print but I
recently got asked to do the inside of a small factory and Panorama is
the only way to do it exactly how the client wanted.

This program is *THE* definitive Panorama generator and totally does
away with the value of a Noblex, GWS 617  or any other dedicated camera.
It totally blows away anything from an Xpan when the input images are 12
megapixel each! - wind up with a 100 megapixel image, no less!
http://www.realviz.com/products/st/index.php

If I get some time over Christmas I might post a link to photos of some
of the amazing 44" wide by room length prints I'm making, thanks to this
application. I intend to print a stitched image the hight of my office
wall and the length of it. I'll join it horizontally and get image
quality you'd normally only see in a 16"x20" print, all over the wall.

Maybe the cost could put some people off but compared to the cost of a
piano film camera and the limit in size you can enlarge film to, this is
chicken feed - even with a Manfrotto pano head and titanium tripod, if
you have a decent DSLR in the first place and are looking at a Pano
camera, this is a really viable alternative.

Signature

Douglas...
Specifications are good to read but
When it comes to judging Digital Cameras...
I'm in the "how do the pictures look" category.

rb - 27 Nov 2005 02:09 GMT
what's your lens of choice when shooting digital for a pano?
cheers
rb
From Douglas - 27 Nov 2005 10:26 GMT
> what's your lens of choice when shooting digital for a pano?
> cheers
> rb

I used to use a 30 mm lens but once I discovered the value of a 50mm on
a 20D (80mm field of view) I found that to be a very pleasant image to
look at. Now with a 5D I'm looking at 100mm for the job but I haven't
settled on that size as I don't have a prime 100 lens.

Signature

Douglas...
Specifications are good to read but
When it comes to judging Digital Cameras...
I'm in the "how do the pictures look" category.

rb - 28 Nov 2005 23:07 GMT
>> what's your lens of choice when shooting digital for a pano?
>> cheers
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> look at. Now with a 5D I'm looking at 100mm for the job but I haven't
> settled on that size as I don't have a prime 100 lens.

Interesting, what was the value of the 50 over the 30 (less barrel
distortion)?
With my happy snaps, I've tended toward a wider angle lens for panos.
Would that be a 100mm 'digital' prime?
You would have to take quite a number of shots overlapping shots with a
100mm.
What % overlap do you work with? Rule of thumb is like 25% no?

cheers
rb
k - 27 Nov 2005 05:40 GMT
| > "dylan" <no@nospam.com> wrote in message

| Mountains look ok, but not impressed with the streetscape or the final
| photo with lawn/trees/buildings.
|
| Seems it has no problem with distant objects, but the perspective seems
| shot with closer or busier scenes - which makes sense as you're swinging
| a lense about, not taking a single-point-of-view image.

my guess is that those shots have been taken by an inexperienced
photographer who knows nothing of central nodal points and has instead
wandered pgysically around taking snaps, however, for converging verticals
(imaged) on a horizontal plane (physical) there is no way to make such
things look appropriate in a wide swing anyway, near subjects are near, far
subjects far - the final result always looks a bit odd unless the distortion
of a fisheye is deemed more acceptable.

k

there are a lot of optional settings in this freeware, I suspect the final
images in the gallery are less than optimal ;-)
Dogfart - 26 Nov 2005 20:36 GMT
> It's linhof.

Maybe I should ask "How many would they sell in one year?"
Rob - 27 Nov 2005 07:10 GMT
>>http://www.mainlinephoto.com.au/category17_1.htm
>
> It's linhof.
>
> If you want a panoramic and spend less cash look for a Noblex, or use a DSLR
> and stitching software.

 Different   -  one is a swing lens scanning camera, the other a "wide
angle" lens camera. They are completely opposite to use and develop a
user technique.

What you should have said -  have a look at the other pages on that web
site and there is a Fotoman camera which is of similar format at 1/4 the
price.
dylan - 27 Nov 2005 11:19 GMT
>  Different   -  one is a swing lens scanning camera, the other a "wide
> angle" lens camera. They are completely opposite to use and develop a user
> technique.

Yes they are different but the end result will be similar ie a panoramic
shot.
Opposite to use and develop is irrelevant if you only have one of them.

> What you should have said -  have a look at the other pages on that web
> site and there is a Fotoman camera which is of similar format at 1/4 the
> price.

I said what I wanted to say, you can say what you want.

Cheers :O)
Rob - 27 Nov 2005 22:17 GMT
>> Different   -  one is a swing lens scanning camera, the other a "wide
>>angle" lens camera. They are completely opposite to use and develop a user
>>technique.
>
> Yes they are different but the end result will be similar ie a panoramic
> shot.

No there not the same result - lets put it another way the swing lens
gives you a cigar shaped distortion in the picture.  This is similar to
stitching multiple frames together when you swing a camera from the
nodal point.

> Opposite to use and develop is irrelevant if you only have one of them.

No its not. And BTW having both that from experience.

>>What you should have said -  have a look at the other pages on that web
>>site and there is a Fotoman camera which is of similar format at 1/4 the
>>price.
>
> I said what I wanted to say, you can say what you want.

No because you haven't compared similar cameras.

> Cheers :O)
k - 28 Nov 2005 00:41 GMT
shot.

| No there not the same result - lets put it another way the swing lens
| gives you a cigar shaped distortion in the picture.  This is similar to
| stitching multiple frames together when you swing a camera from the
| nodal point.

hang on a bit..  I can't see any way at all around the 'cigar shaped'
distortion!  is there a suggestion that there is?

I can see a few ways of achieving a panorama -

use a rectilinear wide angle and crop to the required ratio**
use a fisheye and crop to the required ratio
use a swing lens (and curved film plane)
use a cirkut camera type gizmo
stitch a series together
streak photo (non pictorial, so lets skip this)
others..?

(**either in camera, as panoramic cameras do, or crop from the film after
the event)

rectilinear wide angles will yeild the least* distortion in a single (non
stitched,non moving) shot such that verticals remain vertical and
horizointals horizontal.. but a 'corrected' sherical distortion is
nonetheless a distortion in it's own right.

fisheyes being lenses with no one focal length will produce the most
distorted shot, exhibiting spherical distortion.

Swing lens cameras will (if a decent rectilinear lens is used which they
almost exclusively are) will produce true vertical 'verticals' (as only the
center of the lens is used in exposing the shot there can be NO distortion!)
and the horizontals will be totally distortion free as the lens swings on
axis, pointing at each point on the horizontal as it goes.  The 'cigar
shaped "distortion" ..well, isn't really..  If objects are placed 50' from
the lens to the left, middle and right of the frame then all appear the same
size on the film plane in the shot - they are after all, the same distance
from the film plane!  However, if a horizontal line such as a kerb exists
immediately in front of and perpendicular to the camera but above or below
the central horizontal axis, this will in the shot appear to sweep away both
left and right (either up or down) , and consequently look distorted..
however it is not distorted but a true 2D rendering of a 3D object without
the bias of the mental spacial adjustment that goes on in the human mind -
of course this is assuming a lens is used that is free of spherical
distortion.  If the kerb in question was oriented exactly ON the horizontal
axis it will form a straight line but WILL be cigar shaped - as you'd
expect, it is apparently taller directly in front of the camera where it is
closer, and thinner the further it is from the camera.  but then this is
true of all cameras.

cirkut cameras do the same as the above but move the film away at the same
time so a 360 degree shot (or more) is possible)

stitching a series does the same thing too if the focal lengths are
carefully selected to eliminate spherical distortion, just as you can make a
wide angle shot by stitching together a series of long focal length shots.
This assumes an understanding of the fact that perspective DOES NOT change
if the camera is located in a fixed position and focal lengths are changed,
and anyone can demonstrate this by taking a shot with say a 200mm and then a
shot with a 28mm, cropping the 28mm to the same angle of view and enlarging
it to the size of the 200mm shot - the images are idendical (except for
resolution, grain etc)

then there's the streak camera, particularly a moving streak camera, or
maybe an as-yet to be built cirkut/streak hybrid something along the lines
of one of Prof. A Davidhazy's linear motion cameras.  Moving the camera and
the film past the exposure point would produce a cigar-distortion free image
on the horizontal plane..

Swinging lens/cirkut/stitched and streak cameras offer the least possible
distortion of any cameras but have the major drawback that the camera must
be kept very still for the duration of the effectively long exposure.

Cameras employing wide angles and fisheyes make the exposure in one go so
motion is less of an issue, but they exibit more distortion.

Stitching is problematic if moving subjects are present in the image (as is
the case with long duration / motile lens/camera shots) but these too
exhibit little distortion, again, disclaimer about lens used..

is there something I'm missing?

k
Rob - 28 Nov 2005 04:20 GMT
> shot.
> |
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> hang on a bit..  I can't see any way at all around the 'cigar shaped'
> distortion!  is there a suggestion that there is?

Then only compare the 617 with the Noblex and see what results you
actually get.

> I can see a few ways of achieving a panorama -
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> k
k - 29 Nov 2005 08:54 GMT
| > shot.
| > |
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
| Then only compare the 617 with the Noblex and see what results you
| actually get.

I have done that.

I have a XLSW with a 47mm, a swing lens (28mm on 35mm), a 617 and built a
scanning camera.

what are you saying?  All show the distortion you speak of - can you point
to a shot somewhere that you feel doesn't so I know what you mean?

k
dylan - 28 Nov 2005 09:30 GMT
You are obviously going to disagree with everthing I say.

Please read my original response:-

"If you want a panoramic and spend less cash look for a Noblex, or use a
DSLR
and stitching software. "

I never used the word 'same', or suggested I was comparing 'similar'
cameras, except they take panoramics.

How you can say no to my statement  "I said what I wanted to say, you can
say what you want" is beyond me.

I think you are reading too much into what I said.

Thanks
Rob - 29 Nov 2005 01:54 GMT
> You are obviously going to disagree with everthing I say.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Thanks

What I was trying to say is you would not buy a Noblex to make panoramic
images because of the inherent distortion which it produces. yes your
simple suggestion of a stitched photo is better as the available choice
of lenses tend to minimize the distortion. Noblex is not the answer to
panoramas, when there is so much stitching and correction software now
available, maybe 10 years a go one would have considered a Noblex not
now. The 617 is still a viable option tho.
dylan - 30 Nov 2005 11:45 GMT
> What I was trying to say is you would not buy a Noblex to make panoramic
> images because of the inherent distortion which it produces. yes your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> available, maybe 10 years a go one would have considered a Noblex not now.
> The 617 is still a viable option tho.

I did buy a Noblex and I am happy with it, it's my answer to panoramas. I
also use stitched digital SLR images.

Cheers
 
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