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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / February 2006

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Negative film processing / printing quality

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Alan Browne - 25 Feb 2006 15:21 GMT
I picked up some 120 C-41 (Portra 160NC) the other day with print
proofs.  The prints were pretty poor looking as if they had been printed
to correct under exposure. This at a high end store and lab that caters
to professionals as well as amateurs.

I'm pretty sure they screwed up, as the wall in the photo is pure white,
where in real life it is a very pale beige/pink.

I haven't examined the negatives yet, but the questions are:

"Has print quality from negatives gone down, generally?"

"Has C-41 dev quality gone down? generally"

Cheers,
Alan.

This message is certified 100% film only.

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Colin D - 25 Feb 2006 23:24 GMT
> I picked up some 120 C-41 (Portra 160NC) the other day with print
> proofs.  The prints were pretty poor looking as if they had been printed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan.

The more likely happening is that the processor temps or replenishment
routines are out of spec, or the developer is either very new or very
old, replenished past its end-of-life specs.  Consider the C41
processing requirements, i.e. develop for 3 min 15 sec +/- 5 seconds at
75 degrees F +/- 0.25 degree (that was the specs when I was in the color
dev caper some years ago.  They may have changed since).

Add to that the mechanical (timing and temp control hysteresis) accuracy
of processor, the amount of agitation provided, the quality of the
stop/bleach bath, also subject to replenishment, and you have a
pot-pourri of variables, plus the age of the film, its storage history,
irradiation history, etc.

Its a wonder to me that negatives are as consistent as they appear to
be.

Digital, on the other hand ... {:-)

Colin D.
Scott W - 26 Feb 2006 05:38 GMT
> I picked up some 120 C-41 (Portra 160NC) the other day with print
> proofs.  The prints were pretty poor looking as if they had been printed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan.

>From what I have seen print quality from negatives has always been a
bit hit and miss.  This is why I scan any photo I want a print of.
Looking at some old prints that the lab did and then what I got from a
scan of the same negative makes it pretty clear that the labs I was
taking my photos too were pretty bad in general.

So get a scanner Alan and take control of your prints, and life will be
good again.

Scott
Alan Browne - 26 Feb 2006 21:09 GMT
> So get a scanner Alan and take control of your prints, and life will be
> good again.

I'm in short order buying the 9000ED.  I do have the 5400, but 120
doesn't fit.

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Scott W - 26 Feb 2006 22:39 GMT
> > So get a scanner Alan and take control of your prints, and life will be
> > good again.
>
> I'm in short order buying the 9000ED.  I do have the 5400, but 120
> doesn't fit.

I think you will be much happier once you are scanning your own
negatives.

Scott
Nick Zentena - 26 Feb 2006 12:51 GMT
> I picked up some 120 C-41 (Portra 160NC) the other day with print
> proofs.  The prints were pretty poor looking as if they had been printed
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> "Has print quality from negatives gone down, generally?"

 Machine prints? Not tweaked at all. They've always been an issue.

> "Has C-41 dev quality gone down? generally"

  Not the stuff I do-) I bet the negatives are fine and it's the printing.
I've got 20 year old negatives that when I print them are just fine. But the
machine prints are underexposed just a touch. The colour is off just a bit.

Nick

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zeitgeist - 27 Feb 2006 06:55 GMT
> I picked up some 120 C-41 (Portra 160NC) the other day with print
> proofs.  The prints were pretty poor looking as if they had been printed
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> "Has C-41 dev quality gone down? generally"

I don't know if its the biggest myth, but certainly up in the top ten, that
camera stores, even professional stores offer 'professional' photofinishing.
True some do act as a drop off point for a pro lab's courier service, (if
any still have such) but the sad fact is that nearly all lab and photo
finishing services are just another consumer lab service.   They are not
lying when they say that many professional photographers use their service,
so called professional photographers used costco too to print their client's
wedding photos.

but pro labs suffered quite a bit too.   gone are the color correctors, the
folks that could look at an image and quickly, faster than I could even
resolve the image while looking over their shoulder, they would adjust the
color balance and density while looking at a possitive image on a monitor
with a 'shirley' image and gray card next to it.    So film services went to
hell in pro labs, for awhile, long enough to make sure everybody that
depended on a quality lab decide to switch to digital even if they didn't
want to.    The worst part is trying to reprint an order for client, you
will not get anything remotely similar, mostly due to the current practice
of scanning and printing from the scan, with auto levels doing more than
analog color and density balance did, (now they adjust contrast too,
something a good photog should have learned, needed to have learned how to
get right on the neg.)

Now its done with auto levels.   So the scanner figured that brightest part
of the image was white and made sure it was.

I was suckered in by thinking that Kodak was a quality service, but they
were the dumbest of consumer services, not recognizing that 'pro' film had a
different film base, and therefore a different basic filter pack.
Matt Clara - 28 Feb 2006 14:35 GMT
> > I picked up some 120 C-41 (Portra 160NC) the other day with print
> > proofs.  The prints were pretty poor looking as if they had been printed
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> color balance and density while looking at a possitive image on a monitor
> with a 'shirley' image and gray card next to it.

The pro labs I use still adjust color image by image.  $20 a roll for 36
exp.  The one lab has a gal with no sense of color, unfortunately, and as I
tired of magenta clouds, I switched to the other lab exclusively for wedding
work.  Too bad, too, as it's three times the distance for me to drive.

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Scott W - 28 Feb 2006 17:39 GMT
> The pro labs I use still adjust color image by image.  $20 a roll for 36
> exp.  The one lab has a gal with no sense of color, unfortunately, and as I
> tired of magenta clouds, I switched to the other lab exclusively for wedding
> work.  Too bad, too, as it's three times the distance for me to drive.

Have you thought about scanning your film?  What I have found is that
there are any number of labs where I can have color adjusted digital
files printed and have them come out right.  These same labs seem to
have a hard time working with the negatives directly.
For wedding work the other advantage is that once you have the scanned
image getting reprints that look the same is easy, with a lab you may
well see the reprints having a slightly different color cast then the
original prints, just a thought.

Scott
Matt Clara - 28 Feb 2006 19:53 GMT
> > The pro labs I use still adjust color image by image.  $20 a roll for 36
> > exp.  The one lab has a gal with no sense of color, unfortunately, and as I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Scott

The $1000 I charge per wedding doesn't allow for the kind of time it would
take for me to scan each one; however, as I now shoot the PJ work with a
D70, only the formal portraits are done on film, and I do scan the best of
those, more for my own uses in advertising, etc., than for my clients.
Additionally, I don't keep the negatives, and I tell my clients to get their
reprints at the pro lab I use or another pro shop of their choosing.

Signature

Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

William Graham - 28 Feb 2006 21:44 GMT
>> The pro labs I use still adjust color image by image.  $20 a roll for 36
>> exp.  The one lab has a gal with no sense of color, unfortunately, and as
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Scott

Scanning your own film is an excellent idea, but the equipment you need to
scan and make your own prints can be a bit expensive, both in money and in
time. I am only half way there with a $600 scanner. (a KM-5400) The other
half of my equipment will be another $600 item, such as an Epson 2200
printer. - I have the time, since I am retired. But after the $1200 total
outlay, I will be almost completely independent of processing labs. I will
still have them develop my film, but after that, I will be able to create
very nice prints without anyone's help. - Also, it is conceivable that I
could even develop my own film, and eliminate the processing labs
altogether......
 
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