Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / November 2005
Tri-X 400: best shooting speed?
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DD - 28 Nov 2005 11:47 GMT As the title implies...
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 28 Nov 2005 14:21 GMT 200-250
> As the title implies... Roger - 28 Nov 2005 15:48 GMT >As the title implies... Are you developing you own film? If so you can try shooting at the rated ISO and adjusting the developing time to best suit your film and print processing.
One method is to create a standard target usually with full gray scale patches, a standard large gray card and color patches. In carefully measured lighting shoot an entire roll of the target. In the darkroom cut the film so that there is at least one complete frame on each snipit of undeveloped film. Now develop each film snipit individually at the rated time and say +/- 10%; +/- 20$%; +/- 40%; ... etc. Now try printing each of these film strips using standard B&W printing with no adjustment in the developer. Once done, you should have squeezed the full available tonal range on the film to the tonal range of the paper and established an optimum development time for the snipit the delivered the best images. Please note that there can be considerable trial and error for each snipit until you narrow in on the printing exposure time.
Anyway, the results of brilliant whites to rich blacks with great highlight range and shadow detail are worth all the effort. As you begin to standardize the process, you can minimize the work by buying the film in bulk (or in matched emulsion numbers) and large lots of paper. Eventually there is very little tweaking when you change "lots" of consumables.
If all this is too much the you might try rating Tri-X at 320. It's really pretty good for over exposure range, but too much overexposure really caused the highlights to block up in my experience.
Regards, Roger
DD - 29 Nov 2005 05:33 GMT > >As the title implies... > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Regards, > Roger Thanks Roger, that sounds like a lot of PT! Unfortunately I won't be doing the processing myself, although I am moving in that direction. A local pro lab does traditional B&W processing, but only in batches every week, so I am pretty much at their mercy.
I will be scanning the film and printing on either a Frontier 570 or the new "gee whizz" Konica-Minolta digital lab. I just want to know whether I should expose for shadows or highlights as this is the first time I will be using the film. Sounds like I should expose for shadows?
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David Dyer-Bennet - 28 Nov 2005 16:51 GMT > As the title implies... Somewhere between 200 and 4000; depending on your goals and requirements.
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Dominic Richens - 28 Nov 2005 17:36 GMT 400 - I believe it says so right on the box
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 28 Nov 2005 18:25 GMT > 400 - I believe it says so right on the box That's the ISO, not to be confused with 'best shooting speed'.
Dominic Richens - 29 Nov 2005 17:41 GMT >> 400 - I believe it says so right on the box > > That's the ISO, not to be confused with 'best shooting speed'. So you are basically saying that Kodak don't know a thing about film...
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 29 Nov 2005 17:53 GMT > >> 400 - I believe it says so right on the box > > > > That's the ISO, not to be confused with 'best shooting speed'. > > So you are basically saying that Kodak don't know a thing about film... No, I happen to know some things about the ISO standard thatyou don't.
The ISO standards are based on practices that antedate the invention of 35mm film. In the 19th c. and later, before 35mm became popular, films and plates were generally contact-printed, and since enlargement was virtually unheard of, grain was not an issue. Negatives were developed to a rather heavy contrast and printed on the realtively soft-contrast pape (roughly equivalent to today's #2).
When ASA speeds were adopted in the 1940s, the contrast used to measure became standardized at a degree that is not optimum for 35mm film. Exposing more allows more of the finer grains to be exposed. Developing less reduces the development of the largest grains. It is therefore advantageous to expose more and develop less than called for in the ISO standard. The additional exposure is about 2/3 stop, and the reduction in development is about 30% with most materials.
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 29 Nov 2005 18:39 GMT > >> 400 - I believe it says so right on the box > > > > That's the ISO, not to be confused with 'best shooting speed'. > > So you are basically saying that Kodak don't know a thing about film... Films contain a population of grains of varying sizes and sensitivity.
Exposing more allows more of the finer grains to be exposed. Developing less reduces the development of the largest grains. The result is that the average grain size remaining in the processed negative is reduced.
It is therefore advantageous to expose more and develop less than called for in the ISO standard. The additional exposure is about 2/3 stop, and the reduction in development is about 30% with most materials.
Peter Irwin - 29 Nov 2005 18:47 GMT >>> 400 - I believe it says so right on the box >> >> That's the ISO, not to be confused with 'best shooting speed'. > > So you are basically saying that Kodak don't know a thing about film... The ISO speed standard is a very good way of rating the relative speeds of different films, but it shouldn't be taken too literally as a guide to the best exposure index to use. Kodak and all other film manufacturers make it clear that the ISO speed is a good starting point for setting the exposure index, but that users should feel free to adjust their personal EI for the films to whatever gives them the best results.
The speed standard makes two assumptions which are often not true in typical use.
1) It assumes that you are developing the negatives to a contrast (bar gamma of 0.615) which was supposed to represent good photo-finishing practice 45 years ago. Most people with home darkrooms (and especially those with condenser enlargers) develop to a slightly lower contrast in normal use.
2) It assumes a higher flare level than would normally be the case with modern camera bodies and lenses. Lens and camera body flare increase the amount of light reaching the film in shadow areas. Reducing flare is a good thing, but it does result in deeper shadows projected on the film and thus can require an increase in exposure.
A third assumption made by the ISO standard is that the exposure aimed at is 1/3 stop greater than the minimum needed to produce an "excellent" print. Negative films are actually very tolerant of overexposure, and many people prefer to give themselves a bit more of a safety margin.
For all these reasons put together, many people find that setting their exposure meters to 320, 250 or even 200 or less gives them better results.
Many people also find that derating colour negative films also works well, though some of the reasons are different.
Peter.
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 29 Nov 2005 18:56 GMT Peter:
Yes, we are saying the same thing. I am providing a technical explantion as to why the grain is finer if you rate lower and develop less.
> >>> 400 - I believe it says so right on the box > >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Peter. Peter Irwin - 29 Nov 2005 19:25 GMT > Peter: > > Yes, we are saying the same thing. I am providing a technical > explantion as to why the grain is finer if you rate lower and develop > less. Actually, I didn't mention the fine grain advantage of generous exposure and reduced development. It is real, but small compared to the two things that really make a difference: fine grain (slow) film and larger negatives.
When I want really fine grain, I use either Pan-F, Tmax-100 or Acros in a 6x6 camera.
Peter.
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 29 Nov 2005 20:40 GMT It amounts to this: There are several reasons to give more exposure than the minimum, and less development.
> > Peter: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Peter. David Dyer-Bennet - 29 Nov 2005 22:05 GMT > When I want really fine grain, I use either Pan-F, Tmax-100 or Acros > in a 6x6 camera. When I want fine grain, I use XP-2 in a 4x5, at about EI 200. The dye clouds have soft edges, so they make a much smoother image (of less resolution; but the criterion given was fine grain, not high res).
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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 29 Nov 2005 22:18 GMT > > When I want really fine grain, I use either Pan-F, Tmax-100 or Acros > > in a 6x6 camera. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > resolution; but the criterion given was fine grain, not high res). > -- But those films are less sharp than conventional films. The question here is: What are the optimum conditions for 35mm conventional films?
You can't shoot 4 x 5 in the same way as 35mm.
David Dyer-Bennet - 29 Nov 2005 22:37 GMT > > > When I want really fine grain, I use either Pan-F, Tmax-100 or Acros > > > in a 6x6 camera. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But those films are less sharp than conventional films. The question > here is: What are the optimum conditions for 35mm conventional films? One question here is "what do you do when you want really fine grain". That's not the same question as "highest resolution" or "sharpest image", of course. But it's the one I answered.
> You can't shoot 4 x 5 in the same way as 35mm.
 Signature David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
no_name - 29 Nov 2005 22:02 GMT >>>400 - I believe it says so right on the box >> >>That's the ISO, not to be confused with 'best shooting speed'. > > So you are basically saying that Kodak don't know a thing about film... Read the tech-bulletins from Kodak. They'll tell you themselves the 'best shooting speed' varies with application; what you want to do with the film.
400 ISO is a good all-around starting point for average subjects, but it's not like there's some pseudo-Prussian leather-clad dominatrix with a monocle and a riding crop standing at your back shouting "Befel is Befel! You VILL shoot at ISO 400. Ve haff vays to insure your cooperation!!!"
Colyn - 28 Nov 2005 18:04 GMT >As the title implies... I always shoot Tri-X at 320..
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Michael Benveniste - 28 Nov 2005 20:11 GMT > As the title implies... It depends on the developer and the effect you are looking for. A good place to start is the "Massive Dev Chart", which gives possibilities ranging from 50 to 3200. http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html
The commercial labs I use offer a choice of TMax Developer and Ilfotec DD-X.
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Michael - 28 Nov 2005 21:27 GMT I've gotten fantastic results at EI 200, EI 1600 and nearly all steps in between. A good lab, or a good working knowledge of your own processing technique is the key; TX400 is fairly elastic when it comes to pushing or pulling.
Michael
Doug Robbins - 28 Nov 2005 21:56 GMT I generally shoot it at ISO 320 and develop normally. This is for scenes with normal contrast. Best is to experiment with your camera/meter and judge by the results.
Doug
> As the title implies... Colin D - 28 Nov 2005 23:31 GMT > As the title implies... > -- > DD > www.dallasdahms.com > Central Scrutinizer The older b/w film people will remember the mantra for exposing b/w film: 'expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights'.
This was based on the premise that development affected the highlights, i.e. the blacker parts of the negative, more than the shadows, or less dense parts of the negative. If your exposure was sufficient to record the shadows satisfactorily, then optimal highlight density was dependent on your enlarger, and your printing style. The enlarger could be either condenser-illuminated, or diffuse-illuminated, and the two types yielded quite different tonal values in the print, particularly in the shadow tones separation, due to the 'Callier' effect (something for you to look up).
I suggest that you choose a suitable subject of the type you want to photograph, e.g. a landscape, and take a series of exposures from about 160 or 200 ISO up to 800 or so, and then process the film. Look for shadow detail and density first, and note the speed that gave you the best result - not too dense, but good tonal separation.
Next, look at the highlights in that frame, or the print from that frame, and decide if the tonality is ok or not. If the print is too harsh, reduce ( or get your lab to reduce) the development time by 10%, or if the image is flat, increase by 10%, and go round again.
The commonest mistake less experienced photogs made was to underexpose and try to correct in development, specially if the shot was at the rated film speed. It wasn't unknown for film makers to rate their films at a somewhat higher speed to gain a competitive edge, and if the camera shutter was a but fast, or the lens lost a bit of light, the result was underexposure, and the usual response was to increase development time when the proper response would have been to lower the effective ISO.
This relationship between exposure and development time is the key to getting outstanding tonality from b/w film, and it's not fixed, as the indicated speed and development (and modern color film processing) would have you believe. The camera (internal reflections in the body), shutter accuracy, aperture accuracy, lens flare and transmission percentage (some older lenses can have significant transmission losses), meter calibration and method of use, and subject type all have a bearing on the exposure/development combination.
Ansell Adam's Zone System is built on these premises. Of course with roll film you can't individually treat each negative, but you can try to take the same sort of shots, not mix landscapes and portraits, for instance, on the same film, and if you have established optimal development times for different subject types and process accordingly, the results will be fabulous.
Of course, this approach won't make a lot of sense to younger photogs who have grown up with machine processing of color films, but it was the way it was done in the past. Aaahh, the old days ... but I wouldn't swap my digital camera and computer for those days now.
Colin D.
Bob Hickey - 29 Nov 2005 03:20 GMT > > www.dallasdahms.com > > Central Scrutinizer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Colin D. Maybe if I had a digital , I'd get it. Maybe I will some day. But right now, I just can't see what problems it solves. In fact I can't imagine considering digital something I can call my own work.What's the best I can say? great circuit? terriffic sensor? Bob Hickey
DD - 29 Nov 2005 05:43 GMT > > As the title implies... > > -- [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Colin D. Thanks Colin. I am going to have to discuss a lot of these issues with the lab that will be doing the processing until I can get my own processing kit.
Ever since I got involved in photography, some 6 years ago, I have wanted to use Tri-X, mainly because of the incredible authenticity I see in the photos taken from that era (50's to 70's). As I see it, I can't be calling myself a photographer until I have processed my first roll of film and made a print in the darkroom. To me that's what it's all about.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 29 Nov 2005 22:11 GMT > Thanks Colin. I am going to have to discuss a lot of these issues with > the lab that will be doing the processing until I can get my own > processing kit. I think Colin's advice there was all good advice, and I wish I'd followed it through more when I started processing my own film (a bit less than 40 years ago now).
> Ever since I got involved in photography, some 6 years ago, I have > wanted to use Tri-X, mainly because of the incredible authenticity I > see in the photos taken from that era (50's to 70's). As I see it, I > can't be calling myself a photographer until I have processed my > first roll of film and made a print in the darkroom. To me that's > what it's all about. That strikes me as just really *dumb*. I don't discourage you shooting film, and if you're going to shoot B&W film then learning to process it yourself is *definitely* the way to go, and TRI-X is one of the more useful B&W films, so there's nothing *there* that I feel is wrong.
But it's not the *only* way to be a photographer. *THAT* is wrong IMHO.
 Signature David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
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