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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / July 2005

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SLR mirror saves life?

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PGG - 25 Jul 2005 00:41 GMT
"Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky lava,
trying to attract attention with a mirror from his camera. "

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/24/volcano.missing.texan.ap/index.html

Was it film or digital?  :-)
Gordon Moat - 25 Jul 2005 01:46 GMT
> "Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
> teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky lava,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Was it film or digital?  :-)

Five days . . . . . . I don't suppose the batteries on any digital SLR would
last that long.  ;-)

Well, he would have been screwed if he had taken a Leica rangefinder, since
there is no mirror. And who says SLRs aren't rugged?

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>
Alan Browne - 25 Jul 2005 11:22 GMT
>>"Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
>>teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky lava,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Five days . . . . . . I don't suppose the batteries on any digital SLR would
> last that long.  ;-)

I can shoot on the order of 500-700 images (RAW+JPG) and unload them to
my computer on one charge.  At 50 images a day that's well over 5 days...

But if I needed a signalling mirror, the camera wouldn't be very useful
until fixed after the rescue...

Cheers,
Alan

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Gordon Moat - 25 Jul 2005 19:54 GMT
> >>"Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
> >>teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky lava,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I can shoot on the order of 500-700 images (RAW+JPG) and unload them to
> my computer on one charge.  At 50 images a day that's well over 5 days...

You missed my ;-) on that.  ;-)

> But if I needed a signalling mirror, the camera wouldn't be very useful
> until fixed after the rescue...

Hmmm . . . you could turn your zoom lens around and use it to capture water.
Consider one of the newer weatherproofed cameras, and with all that O-ring
sealing, those should be able to carry even more emergency water rations.  ;-)

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>
Woon Wai Keen - 25 Jul 2005 19:14 GMT
> "Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
> teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky lava,
> trying to attract attention with a mirror from his camera. "

IINM, the 45 degree angle it's mounted at makes it impossible to reflect
back at the helicopter. Wouldn't he need to rip the mirror out of his
camera to achieve that? Ouch.

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wK

Paul Bielec - 25 Jul 2005 19:17 GMT
>> "Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
>> teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> back at the helicopter. Wouldn't he need to rip the mirror out of his
> camera to achieve that? Ouch.

I believe that in lot of cameras it can be removed pretty easily.
David Littlewood - 26 Jul 2005 14:02 GMT
>> "Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
>> teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky lava,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>reflect back at the helicopter. Wouldn't he need to rip the mirror out
>of his camera to achieve that? Ouch.

Hm, let's see: rip mirror out of camera or die of thirst/exposure ...
rip mirror out of camera or die of thirst/exposure ... May need a little
more time on that one ... damn, it's flown away. Still, it means I can
carry on taking photos of myself dying.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

David
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David Littlewood

rcochran@lanset.com - 27 Jul 2005 00:20 GMT
> > "Gilbert Dewey Gaedcke III, 41, was rescued Friday afternoon after a
> > teenager on a helicopter tour spotted him stumbling across the rocky lava,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> back at the helicopter. Wouldn't he need to rip the mirror out of his
> camera to achieve that? Ouch.

Any decent SLR will have mirror lock up and a removable screen and
finder (sorry EOS fans).  Lock the mirror up and remove the screen and
finder, and the mirror will be sitting flat against the opening on the
top of the camera, ready to use a a signaling device, to touch up your
makeup, or for whatever purpose.  No need to rip the mirror out or
damage the camera in any way.

--Rich
Ken Tough - 27 Jul 2005 11:53 GMT
>Any decent SLR will have mirror lock up and a removable screen and
>finder (sorry EOS fans).  Lock the mirror up and remove the screen and
>finder, and the mirror will be sitting flat against the opening on the
>top of the camera, ready to use a a signaling device, to touch up your
>makeup, or for whatever purpose.  No need to rip the mirror out or
>damage the camera in any way.

Or at night, fire off the focus assist lamp (or flash) to
send some semaphore signals..

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Ken Tough

Mark Roberts - 27 Jul 2005 20:17 GMT
>>Any decent SLR will have mirror lock up and a removable screen and
>>finder (sorry EOS fans).  Lock the mirror up and remove the screen and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Or at night, fire off the focus assist lamp (or flash) to
>send some semaphore signals..

If the camera has a magnesium alloy body, you could set it alight to
generate a *really* intense signal!
;-)

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Mark Roberts
Photography and writing
www.robertstech.com

Sander Vesik - 28 Jul 2005 19:57 GMT
> >>Any decent SLR will have mirror lock up and a removable screen and
> >>finder (sorry EOS fans).  Lock the mirror up and remove the screen and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> generate a *really* intense signal!
> ;-)

whatever you were using to make it become alight would give more noticeable
signal :-P

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    Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

Matt Clara - 28 Jul 2005 20:14 GMT
> > >>Any decent SLR will have mirror lock up and a removable screen and
> > >>finder (sorry EOS fans).  Lock the mirror up and remove the screen and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> whatever you were using to make it become alight would give more noticeable
> signal :-P

As this is an alloy and not regular magnesium, you're probably correct.
Still, have you ever seen magnesium burn?  Can't get much brighter than
that.

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Owamanga - 28 Jul 2005 21:08 GMT
>As this is an alloy and not regular magnesium, you're probably correct.
>Still, have you ever seen magnesium burn?  Can't get much brighter than
>that.

Tell me about it, I can still see the purple marks from the stuff we
stole from the School chem lab in '73

It's like a mini sun, but whiter.

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Owamanga!
http://www.pbase.com/owamanga

Mike - 28 Jul 2005 21:37 GMT
> Tell me about it, I can still see the purple marks from the stuff we
> stole from the School chem lab in '73
>
> It's like a mini sun, but whiter.

You mean you damaged your eye?!
Owamanga - 29 Jul 2005 14:47 GMT
>> Tell me about it, I can still see the purple marks from the stuff we
>> stole from the School chem lab in '73
>>
>> It's like a mini sun, but whiter.
>
>You mean you damaged your eye?!

It was pretty.

They told me to stop staring, but it was soooo pretty.

Okay, I was kidding, it's too painful to stare at.

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Ken Tough - 28 Jul 2005 21:37 GMT
><no.emailz@this.guys.expense> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>It's like a mini sun, but whiter.

Back in elementary school, I used strip magnesium to light my
volcano model.  Down in its base it had a tin can filled with,
as I recall, powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate.  Having
later lived on an island with actual volcanic eruptions, I can
say that the green acrid smoke of the model was actually slightly
more vivid.

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Ken Tough

Tony Polson - 28 Jul 2005 21:58 GMT
>Back in elementary school, I used strip magnesium to light my
>volcano model.  Down in its base it had a tin can filled with,
>as I recall, powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate.  Having
>later lived on an island with actual volcanic eruptions, I can
>say that the green acrid smoke of the model was actually slightly
>more vivid.

Might it have been potassium dichromate?  Orange crystals that
produced lots of green ash?

;-)
David Littlewood - 29 Jul 2005 01:52 GMT
>>Back in elementary school, I used strip magnesium to light my
>>volcano model.  Down in its base it had a tin can filled with,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Might it have been potassium dichromate?  Orange crystals that
>produced lots of green ash?

No, that's ammonium dichromate. Used to be used in indoor fireworks;
ignited alone, it glows and gives several times its volume of fluffy
green chromic oxide (Cr2O3). This happens at a much lower temperature
than the thermit process using aluminium (see other post), in which the
exothermicity of the reaction 4Al + 3O2 --> 2 Al2O3 accounts for most of
the heat.

I used to do this to generate Cr2O3 to use for the thermit process.

It may be that you can do both at once using ammonium dichromate and
aluminium powder - could be what Ken was thinking of.

David
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David Littlewood

ian lincoln - 29 Jul 2005 02:37 GMT
>>>Back in elementary school, I used strip magnesium to light my
>>>volcano model.  Down in its base it had a tin can filled with,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> It may be that you can do both at once using ammonium dichromate and
> aluminium powder - could be what Ken was thinking of.

What were those snake things i saw in an episode of southpark.  Didn't they
make one so big it destroyed canada?  How big would it need to be to fill a
tube station.
Tony Polson - 29 Jul 2005 11:05 GMT
>No, that's ammonium dichromate. Used to be used in indoor fireworks;
>ignited alone, it glows and gives several times its volume of fluffy
>green chromic oxide (Cr2O3).

Thanks, David.  Memories from over 35 years ago ...

;-)
Ken Tough - 29 Jul 2005 20:03 GMT
>No, that's ammonium dichromate. Used to be used in indoor fireworks;
>ignited alone, it glows and gives several times its volume of fluffy
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>It may be that you can do both at once using ammonium dichromate and
>aluminium powder - could be what Ken was thinking of.

Hmmm... You could well be right.  I think the trauma put it out
of my memory permanently.

Signature

Ken Tough

Ken Tough - 29 Jul 2005 20:02 GMT
>>Back in elementary school, I used strip magnesium to light my
>>volcano model.  Down in its base it had a tin can filled with,
>>as I recall, powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate.  Having
>>later lived on an island with actual volcanic eruptions, I can
>>say that the green acrid smoke of the model was actually slightly
>>more vivid.

>Might it have been potassium dichromate?  Orange crystals that
>produced lots of green ash?

Yeah, that would be exactly the thing!  Thanks, I couldn't remember.

Signature

Ken Tough

David Littlewood - 29 Jul 2005 01:46 GMT
>><no.emailz@this.guys.expense> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>say that the green acrid smoke of the model was actually slightly
>more vivid.

Ha, I used to use it to ignite Thermit mixture (powdered Al + ferric or
chromic oxide). Generates a temperature sufficient to melt the chromium
or iron produced, and was used in the 19th century to weld rails (using
Fe rather than Cr) - and even more recently in places where there was no
other support for welding.

It was a bugger get going though.

Just a thought, you'd probably do time for playing with such things
these days, with all the paranoia around.

David
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David Littlewood

Sander Vesik - 29 Jul 2005 16:14 GMT
> As this is an alloy and not regular magnesium, you're probably correct.
> Still, have you ever seen magnesium burn?  Can't get much brighter than
> that.

yes. though i'm not sure that it is the brightest metal (powder) when
burning - most are just very hard to ignite in air or form a protective
oxide very fast so you must use tricks.

Signature

    Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

Matt Clara - 29 Jul 2005 18:28 GMT
> > As this is an alloy and not regular magnesium, you're probably correct.
> > Still, have you ever seen magnesium burn?  Can't get much brighter than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> burning - most are just very hard to ignite in air or form a protective
> oxide very fast so you must use tricks.

The magnesium strips I swiped from chemistry lab were lit with a match or
bic lighter.

Signature

Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

William Graham - 30 Jul 2005 01:24 GMT
>> > As this is an alloy and not regular magnesium, you're probably correct.
>> > Still, have you ever seen magnesium burn?  Can't get much brighter than
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The magnesium strips I swiped from chemistry lab were lit with a match or
> bic lighter.

Getting them started was no problem. It was putting them out that was
hard.....As I remember, water didn't do the trick. You had to smother them
with sand or some such thing.......The magnesium was capable of stealing the
oxygen away from the hydrogen in water.......
Bandicoot - 30 Jul 2005 17:06 GMT
[SNIP]

> Getting them started was no problem. It was putting
> them out that was hard.....As I remember, water
> didn't do the trick. You had to smother them with
> sand or some such thing.......The magnesium was
> capable of stealing the oxygen away from the
> hydrogen in water.......

Phosphorus has similarly 'entertaining' properties...  Even with the correct
solution on hand for extinguishing it at the time, I can still see on the
back of my hand a very small scar which is what remains from a 20+ year old
phosphous burn.

Most 'entertaining' lab. fire I ever saw involved a flammable metal, but not
magnesium.  'Sodium sand' is used in synthesising certain organo-sodium
compounds, it's just very finely divided sodium.  But sodium is too soft to
grind up, and has to be kept away from oxygen at all times as it otherwise
oxides at the surface rapidly - anything as fine as sodium sand would be all
oxide before you even get to use it.

Sodium also reacts violently with water (on which it floats) liberating
hydrogen and producing enough heat that the sodium usually catches fire,
igniting the hydrogen.  The other product of the reaction with water is
sodium hydroxide, so even after the violent reaction is over, you have a
caustic liquid to clear up.

Of course, you can't put out a sodium fire with water, and it can reduce
CO2, so you can't use a CO2 extinguisher.  Sodium also reacts violently or
explosively with the halogens, so the old BCF family of chemical
extinguishers can't be used either.

Sodium sand is made in an ingenious way.  You put sodium under toluene (aka
methylbenzene, aka toluol, aka phenylmethane), an liquid aromatic
hydrocarbon in which sodium is insoluble and which will protect it from air
(and water).  Toluene is very flammable (and toxic), and has a large excess
of carbon on combustion.  The clever part is that toluene boils at a
temperature (111C) not far above sodium's melting point (98C).  You put the
sodium and toluene in a rb flask with a refluxing condenser and boil the
toluene for a while - the sodium melts and the boiling action of the toluene
disperses it into tiny spherical droplets within the liquid.  When you take
away the heat the sodium freezes before the boiling has slowed enough for it
to coalesce, so you get your very finely divided sodium sand.  Clever eh?

Well, one day we were making some sodium sand.  Because of the water and CO2
things, the usual fire extinguishers were put out of the way and a bucket of
sand was in their place.  The toluene boiled and refluxed nicely till the
sodium was well distributed in the toluene and we decided it was time to
take away the heat and let the sodium freeze.  Will reached into the fume
cupboard and turned the Bunsen to a luminous flame and moved it away from
the boiling flask, closed the fume cupboard door again and then it
happened - and I can see this all happening in slow motion, even as Will
reached for the gas tap to turn out the Bunsen:

The clamp that was holding the Quickfit rb boiling flask at the neck gave
way - the jaw just broke, metal fatigue I suppose.  The reflux condenser was
also clamped to the retort stand, so the ground glass joint separated and
the flask simply dropped away from the condenser and hit the plate at the
bottom of the stand.  Being Pyrex it didn't break - oh no, that would've
been too easy.  It bounced, and as it did so it began to spin...  and out of
the neck of the flask came an expanding spiral of toluene and sodium sand as
the flask span.  This I saw in slow motion.  Then the 'spiral' reached the
other side of the fume cupboard and met the Bunsen flame, and suddenly
everything was happening in real time again.  The cupboard was illuminated
as it completely filled with a sheet of yellow flame (toluene burns
yellowish anyway because of all the carbon, but sodium has a  _bright_
yellow/orange emission line when it burns).

I flicked the switch that cut the fume cupboard fan even as Will grabbed the
bucket of sand.  As he lifted the sand I opened the cupboard, Will threw in
the sand and we both very quickly distributed it so all the burning liquid
was covered - most of it had run into the fume cupboard sink, so it wasn't
as hard to contain as it might have been.  There was a Kipps gas generator
in the back of the fume cupboard, and we were both aware that if the rubber
hose on it melted it would start feeding flammable hydrogen sulphide gas to
the fire, which was an extra incentive to get it under control quickly.

It was all over in 30 seconds at the most, but it seemed longer...

Will and I walked outside to breathe in some fresh air and then saw what
that excess of carbon in the toluene had done: we both had completely black
faces, except where we had rubbed our eyes, and looked like we had 'blacked
up' to sing backing for Perry Como in some 1960s TV special.  The fire may
have been out in moments, but it took the rest of the day (and more) to
clean out the thick curds of greasy black soot that encrusted every surface
and every reagent bottle in the lab.

(Far from finding this a scary experience, Will and I both found our first
laboratory fire rather reassuring.  Previously it was a risk you knew about,
and hoped you had planned for adequately; but after the fire we knew we'd
had one that was nearly as bad as could be, and we'd reacted just as we
needed too.)

That spiral of liquid igniting and turning into a wall of flame was really
beautiful too - sort of like attack ships burning off the shoulder of... oh,
never mind.

Peter
parv - 31 Jul 2005 00:43 GMT
> Most 'entertaining' lab. fire I ever saw involved a flammable
> metal, but not magnesium.  'Sodium sand' is used in synthesising
> certain organo-sodium compounds,
...
> (Far from finding this a scary experience, Will and I both found
> our first laboratory fire rather reassuring.  Previously it was a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> was really beautiful too - sort of like attack ships burning off
> the shoulder of... oh, never mind.

That was some griping piece of work!

Nothing as interesting happened to me while i had high school
chemistry or introductory chemistry classes at he university.

Thanks for sharing.

 - parv

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William Graham - 31 Jul 2005 00:52 GMT
>> Most 'entertaining' lab. fire I ever saw involved a flammable
>> metal, but not magnesium.  'Sodium sand' is used in synthesising
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>  - parv

Yes....In my case, the always present smell of hydrogen sulfide gas bubbling
through the beakers turned me off from chemistry for a lifetime....:^)
Brian Baird - 31 Jul 2005 01:10 GMT
> That spiral of liquid igniting and turning into a wall of flame was really
> beautiful too - sort of like attack ships burning off the shoulder of... oh,
> never mind.

Blade Runner?

Entertaining story.  As I look forward to more chemistry labs, I'll keep
that one in mind.
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Owamanga - 27 Jul 2005 21:08 GMT
>Or at night, fire off the focus assist lamp (or flash) to
>send some semaphore signals..

I've used the modeling button on my SB-800 speedlight to navigate in
the dark on several occasions. It emits a high energy repeating flash
with a frequency of around 15-20Hz I'd guess. It's usually attached to
my belt, so it's often handy. At night it's extremely bright, and I
bet it looks rather strange from a distance.

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Annika1980 - 28 Jul 2005 15:50 GMT
>Was it film or digital?  :-)

Anybody that stupid must've been shooting film.
Why didn't he just use his flash anyway?

I mean how do you get lost in a lava field in Hawaii?
I've been there and you've got Ocean on one side and a big mountain on
the other.
But I'll agree with one thing in the story.  That sure is some rough
terrain. I probably only walked a mile on it and it felt like 20.  I
saw some lava smoke just over the hill and so I'd hike to to the top of
the hill.  Then I'd see another hill and another hill.  After about an
hour of this, I figured out that the smoke was probably 5 miles away.
Bandicoot - 29 Jul 2005 13:43 GMT
> >Was it film or digital?  :-)
>
> Anybody that stupid must've been shooting film.
> Why didn't he just use his flash anyway?

[SNIP]

> I saw some lava smoke just over the hill and so I'd
> hike to to the top of the hill.  Then I'd see another hill
> and another hill.  After about an hour of this, I figured
> out that the smoke was probably 5 miles away.

And you call the other guy stupid?

;-)

Peter
Owamanga - 29 Jul 2005 15:29 GMT
>> >Was it film or digital?  :-)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>And you call the other guy stupid?

LOL

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Annika1980 - 29 Jul 2005 16:16 GMT
> I saw some lava smoke just over the hill and so I'd
> hike to to the top of the hill.  Then I'd see another hill
> and another hill.  After about an hour of this, I figured
> out that the smoke was probably 5 miles away.

>And you call the other guy stupid?

At least I was smart enough to go back to the car.
Owamanga - 29 Jul 2005 16:20 GMT
>> I saw some lava smoke just over the hill and so I'd
>> hike to to the top of the hill.  Then I'd see another hill
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>At least I was smart enough to go back to the car.

Hundreds of small insects probably curse you for that.

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http://www.pbase.com/owamanga

Scott W - 29 Jul 2005 21:18 GMT
> >Was it film or digital?  :-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the hill.  Then I'd see another hill and another hill.  After about an
> hour of this, I figured out that the smoke was probably 5 miles away.

I have to agree with this, it is pretty hard to get lost in Hawaii, not
many manage to do it.

BTW you really don't want to spend the night in a lava field, there
are some nasty things that come out at dark, centipedes that have a bit
you really don't want to every feel.  The Volcano Park gets a number
of reports of bits just about every night.

Scott
Owamanga - 29 Jul 2005 21:24 GMT
>BTW you really don't want to spend the night in a lava field, there
>are some nasty things that come out at dark, centipedes that have a bit
>you really don't want to every feel.  The Volcano Park gets a number
>of reports of bits just about every night.

Inspector Jacques Clouseau?

If you had a minky would the minky bit the centipedes or would the
centipedes bit the monkey?

<I know it's bad form to point out typo's, but you did do it twice>

Here, have an E.

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http://www.pbase.com/owamanga

Scott W - 29 Jul 2005 21:50 GMT
> >BTW you really don't want to spend the night in a lava field, there
> >are some nasty things that come out at dark, centipedes that have a bit
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Here, have an E.

As you pointed out I need two.

Scott
> Owamanga!
> http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
Owamanga - 29 Jul 2005 22:27 GMT
>> >BTW you really don't want to spend the night in a lava field, there
>> >are some nasty things that come out at dark, centipedes that have a bit
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>As you pointed out I need two.

Here's the other one....  E

They'll need some conversion into lowercase however.

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Bandicoot - 30 Jul 2005 01:29 GMT
> > >BTW you really don't want to spend the night in
> > >a lava field, there are some nasty things that come > > >out at dark,
centipedes that have a bit you really
> > >don't want to every feel.  The Volcano Park gets
> > >a number of reports of bits just about every night.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> As you pointed out I need two.

Over here, we generally try to avoid E-numbers...

(Oh, and Owamanga's letting you off the Y and the split infinitive?  He must
be slipping.)

Peter
William Graham - 30 Jul 2005 01:28 GMT
>>BTW you really don't want to spend the night in a lava field, there
>>are some nasty things that come out at dark, centipedes that have a bit
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Here, have an E.

You should give him all the e's from the word, "lense"....
Chris Loffredo - 30 Jul 2005 09:30 GMT
> BTW you really don't want to spend the night in a lava field, there
> are some nasty things that come out at dark, centipedes that have a bit
> you really don't want to every feel.  The Volcano Park gets a number
> of reports of bits just about every night.

I know you love digital, but digital centipedes????
 
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