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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / May 2005

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Impossible meter readings from Spotmatic F

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Peter dellaFemina - 26 May 2005 21:24 GMT
I just acquired a couple of Spotmatic Fs to use with my M42 lens
collection. Both cameras have new Zinc-air batteries. Both cameras give
meter readings opposite of what I believe they should be. I'm using the
Super-Takumar lenses for now (they do not have full aperture capabilty).
What happens when I activate the meter with the depth of field preview
button and the lens is switched to AUTO is the needle sinks quickly to the
bottom. If I leave it on for a few seconds in most cases it slowly rises
toward the middle (depending upon the aperture/speed setting). But when I
purposely choose an over-exposed setting (slow speed and wide open aperture)
the needle drops to the bottom or negative. When I purposely under-expose
(fast speed/low aperture) the needle jumps right to the top or positive.

I originally thought the polarity of the battery was reversed. But that is
not the case. Could I really have faulty meters in both cameras?
Stefan Patric - 27 May 2005 01:48 GMT
> I just acquired a couple of Spotmatic Fs to use with my M42 lens
> collection. Both cameras have new Zinc-air batteries. Both cameras
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> that is not the case. Could I really have faulty meters in both
> cameras?

Didn't the screw-mount Spotmatics take MERCURY batteries?  The voltage
on these types of batteries (banned in the US, but you still can order
them from Canada) are different from today's button-type batteries,
which could explain the strange meter behavior.  I have a very old
Gossen light meter (must be 35 to 40 years old), that originally took
mercury batteries.  It gives VERY incorrect readings with the suggested
non-mercury "equivalent" battery, but with a mercury battery in it,
it's dead on!  

Or, yes, both camera meters could just be shot.

Signature

Stefan Patric
NoLife Polymath Group
tootek2@yahoo.com

Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 27 May 2005 06:16 GMT
> Didn't the screw-mount Spotmatics take MERCURY batteries?  The voltage
> on these types of batteries (banned in the US, but you still can order
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> non-mercury "equivalent" battery, but with a mercury battery in it,
> it's dead on!  

The Spotmatics were unique in that they used a bridge circuit. This measures
the DIFFERENCE between a fixed resistor and the photocell. Therefore
it is relatively independent of battery voltage.

Most cameras measure thevoltage drop across the photocell, or in other
words how much electricity it conducts, which is greater with more
light. In order to work properly they need an exact voltage source.
Mercury and silver oxide batteries hold their voltage across their
entire life, alkeline batteries drop off relatively quickly.

In those devices you can replace the mercury battery with a  silver oxide
one if you can recalibrate it for the higher voltage. Many people have had
success using a diode to drop the voltage. Often they have not had to
recalibrate the device. With the diode alkeline batteries would work too,
but they drop out of calibraition relatively quickly with use.

To be totaly off topic, one well known repairman will modify Olympus
cameras cheaply by installing the diode internaly for a small additional
fee while doing a CLA on the camera.

It's a good deal because he is only charging you for the diode a few
minutes of his time, as he already has to take the covers off and realign
the light meter anyway.

Forget the zinc air batteries, they are a necessary comprimise and have
their faults. Use the alkeline or silver-oxide batteries instead.

Note that the cameras in question are almost 40 years old, photocells
age and resistor elements wear out. It simply may not be possible to
get the cameras working up to original specs again. That would be a
shame as the Pentax lenses were top notch.

Geoff.
Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (077)-424-1667  IL Fax: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
VoN  Skype: mendelsonfamily

Tony Polson - 27 May 2005 12:46 GMT
>Note that the cameras in question are almost 40 years old, photocells
>age and resistor elements wear out. It simply may not be possible to
>get the cameras working up to original specs again. That would be a
>shame as the Pentax lenses were top notch.

There's no need to fret about the demise of your Pentax screw mount
camera bodies when Cosina of Japan make a pretty good M42 mount SLR
called the Voigtländer Bessaflex TM.

http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtFlexTM.htm
Peter dellaFemina - 27 May 2005 16:41 GMT
Yes, from what I've been reading here it looks like I should move to the
silver oxide battery. Especially when one estimate claimed that the Zinc-
airs only last a couple of months with or without use! Is that why they
only charged me $5.25 per?

Later,
Peter
Stefan Patric - 28 May 2005 06:10 GMT
>> Didn't the screw-mount Spotmatics take MERCURY batteries?  The
>> voltage on these types of batteries (banned in the US, but you still
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> get the cameras working up to original specs again. That would be a
> shame as the Pentax lenses were top notch.

One could just use a hand-held meter.  Why discard a camera that is
still usable and will take great pictures just because its meter is
bad?

Signature

Stefan Patric
NoLife Polymath Group
tootek2@yahoo.com

chrisplatt@aol.com - 28 May 2005 12:54 GMT
The SP-F is the last and probably best Spotmatic body.

The meter should work well with the hard-to-find
PX625 1.5V silver oxide battery.

If not, send the cameras to Eric Hendrickson,
pentaxrepairs@aol.com

Excelsior, you fatheads!
-Chris-
Colin D - 27 May 2005 02:11 GMT
> I just acquired a couple of Spotmatic Fs to use with my M42 lens
> collection. Both cameras have new Zinc-air batteries. Both cameras give
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I originally thought the polarity of the battery was reversed. But that is
> not the case. Could I really have faulty meters in both cameras?

The meters in those cameras used a CdS (cadmium sulphide) cell as the
light sensor.  CdS cells are very sensitive to light, but they have
considerable lag in their response to changing light levels.  The
sensitivity is depressed by bright light, and when the light level drops
abruptly, as in when you stop down, the cell can take some seconds to
recover, hence the slow rise of the needle.

Colin
Peter dellaFemina - 27 May 2005 16:36 GMT
Hey, I appreciate all the information. Now, I must confess that I should
probably retract the issue with the needle moving in the opposite direction
when exaggerating the exposure. It may have been operator error since I'm
not used to turning the aperture ring in the direction the Spotmatic
requires. I say this because yesterday's shoot presented no such problem.

What I did learn by consulting a manual about the lens/camera combination
is that I should really keep the stop-down switch in the AUTO position and
use the DOF button to activate the meter when using the Super-Takumar
lenses. I should leave the switch in the AUTO position when using the the
full-aperture metering (SMC) lenses anyway. This leaves less room for error
on my part as I adjust to the camera.

I am enlightened by Colin's post about the initial needle fluctuation. This
makes sense to me now - THANKS!

I'm going to shoot another roll today sometime and see if I have it right
about my mistake.

Later,
Peter
Alan Browne - 27 May 2005 18:14 GMT
> recover, hence the slow rise of the needle.

For older cameras, following a visit to the camera doctor, a
prescription of Vexposa taken 1 hour before metering will set it right
in 70% or more of cameras.

Cheers,
Alan.
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Colin D - 28 May 2005 00:42 GMT
> > recover, hence the slow rise of the needle.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Alan.
> --

Will that fix my drooping 300mm as well?

Colin
Duncan J Murray - 28 May 2005 18:48 GMT
>I just acquired a couple of Spotmatic Fs to use with my M42 lens
> collection. Both cameras have new Zinc-air batteries. Both cameras give
> meter readings opposite of what I believe they should be.

Right...

> I'm using the
> Super-Takumar lenses for now (they do not have full aperture capabilty).

What do you mean by full aperture capability?  They should have automatic
diaphragms if I understand correctly, and therefore always be at full
aperture until the shutter is released, in which case it will be
automatically stopped-down.

Here is a little snippet on lenses with open aperture metering...

http://www.acecam.com/photography/2619.html

> What happens when I activate the meter with the depth of field preview
> button and the lens is switched to AUTO is the needle sinks quickly to the
> bottom.

I don't have a spotmatic, but surely this is because meter readings should
be ignored if you use depth of field preview?  This is the case with most
TTL, auto-diaphragm cameras.

> If I leave it on for a few seconds in most cases it slowly rises
> toward the middle (depending upon the aperture/speed setting).

That, I believe, is probably the meter working correctly.

> But when I
> purposely choose an over-exposed setting (slow speed and wide open
> aperture)
> the needle drops to the bottom or negative. When I purposely under-expose
> (fast speed/low aperture) the needle jumps right to the top or positive.

That's telling you you're doing it wrong.  I assume then that down means
over exposure, and up means underexposure?

> I originally thought the polarity of the battery was reversed. But that is
> not the case.

Just use the concept of the meter being correct when the needle is in the
middle!

Could I really have faulty meters in both cameras?

I don't think that's likely.

Duncan.
chrisplatt@aol.com - 28 May 2005 19:12 GMT
Full-aperture metering with the SP-F (as well as ES and ES II cameras)
only works with lenses labeled "Super Multi Coated Takumar" or "SMC
Takumar".

Sometimes referred to as ES mount lenses, they have an additional
coupling that transmits the set aperture to the camera body.

When using earlier Takumar lenses (including Super Takumars) on the
SP-F,
you must perform stopdown metering, just like earlier Spotmatic bodies.

Excelsior, you fatheads!
-Chris-
michel.[pas]carrere-[de]gee[spam] - 29 May 2005 06:13 GMT
Read a good website for Pentax:
http://www.aohc.it/indexe.htm
To replace batteries:
http://www.aohc.it/batte.htm
The screw mount evolution:
http://www.aohc.it/tak00e.htm

Michel
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/krg
Peter dellaFemina - 29 May 2005 19:11 GMT
>What do you mean by full aperture capability?

I think Chris explained it quite well after your post. In my case I have
both types of lenses ranging from 17mm to 200mm with duplication at 28mm,
50mm and 55mm - the duplicates are the full aperture types. (I went a
little crazy on eBay over the last 2 weeks once I saw the vast supply of
these screw-mounts).

>but surely this is because meter readings should
>be ignored if you use depth of field preview?

Well, with the Super-Takumars when the switch is set to AUTO the meter will
only be engaged when the DOF button is pressed. And I'm quite used to this
from a Fujica ST701 I used until 1994 (I recently replaced it with the SPF).

>That's telling you you're doing it wrong.  I assume then that down >means
over exposure, and up means underexposure?

Um, I probably wasn't clear. No, down means underexposure and up means
overexposure. I was exagerrating the setting to try and get a response from
the meter. Which actually did work. It was my misinterpretaion of which
direction it should have moved. My problem was that I imagined a left to
right turn on the aperture ring should have opened the iris wider and visa
versa. But this is not the case: left to right closes down the iris, right
to left opens it up. Too many years away from a manual camera, I guess.

Nope, the meters in box cameras are fine. The needle needs a second or two
to settle in some situations, that's all. I have obtained good results with
the last 3 rolls (Fujicolor Super HQ, ISO 200), shooting landscapes
primarily.

Now I'm experimenting with my 50mm f/1.4 Super-Takumar mounted on my Kodak
DCS Pro using an adapter. This is a challenge since the internal meter is
totally disabled and I'm too lazy to hunt down my hand-held. What fun would
that be, anyway?

Thanks for all your collective input!

Peter
 
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