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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / May 2005

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[SI] My Critique

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Duncan J Murray - 24 May 2005 23:32 GMT
Firstly, I was really impressed with everyone's entries this time - does
that say something about breaking rules?  In that 'good' photos which have
fulfilled the photographic rules tend to be a bit boring?  It seems like
most of the typical rules have been broken - except for one glaring
exception - blocked out shadows and blown highlights.  It's always been my
belief that these don't detriment a picture if they are used on purpose.
Anyway, it probably says something about breaking that rule that none of the
excellent photos here have done.

Please don't take offence at any of my criticism.

Tom Hudson : The subject in focus is cut off and the main subject is out of
focus.  I think it works well mainly because the two subjects are similar,
and each one shows an aspect that's missing in the other - form and texture
is shared between them - linking them together and giving the picture some
kind of closure.

Mark Lauter : I really like this photo because I firmly believe that you
don't need things to be sharp for it to be a good photo.  It has lovely
colour, texture and framing, conveying a real sense of emotion - you feel
like you are there and can empathise with the life of the three subjects.  I
was reading recently in 'digital photographer' (an excellent magazine, apart
from their obsession of digital, bad spelling and often shockingly low dpi
printed on expensive paper) an article on travel photography where one of
the photographer's mentions that the difference between bad and good travel
photography is that bad photography simply brags to people about where
you've been, good photography actually takes them there.  This photo 'takes
me there' - and breaking the rule was a key part to its success.

Paul Ferman : Wide angle isn't flattering for portraits.  And that's true
for this photo, too.  However, it caught my eye because I didn't think it
was a portrait at first, rather a Stalinist sculpture of some sort instead.
It's an interesting photo, almost architectural.

Rich Pos : Crazy and a bit different would describe a few photos here, but
not this one.  This one manages to break the rule without appearing to.  My
only criticism of this is that it is not epic-making.  It is a well-taken
photo, technically and artistically.  I would describe it as 'pleasant' or
'pleasing'.  The subject has been totally isolated.  I can't see people
arguing over whether this photo should have been placed off-centre or not,
because it obviously works in the centre.  It's a good photo, just I don't
see it being great.

Bandicoot : There's no clear subject, the scene is cluttered, and people are
looking out of the photo.  This photo caught my eye.  It works well in black
and white with the low lighting, dark skin, white shirt.  Somehow it works a
lot better than it should, and I think the photo is mainly held together by
an unlikely subject - the lady on the far right.  You are directed to her by
the two people looking in her direction (in the centre frame), and my gaze
stays there because of her expression.  She seems relaxed and enjoying
herself at this party.  I wonder if she's thinking about something or
someone special that day, while enjoying the presence of her friends, and
particularly this lady who seems to be telling some exasperating story.

Owamanga : Blurry subject.  I like the hat - for me it saves the photo.  I
just find the other two objects objectionable - I would suggest photoshop,
but of course you wouldn't have been able to submit it then!  The thing
about motion blur as opposed to just being out of focus, is the lines that
remain in focus - which helps with the eyes focus.  I think you could have
broken another rule and blown some highlights, too.

Walt Hanks : What rule is being broken here?  It's a great photo.  Well
exposed, lovely highlights, lovely tone.  In fact - I thought 'this could
only be b&w film!', and then when I looked at the camera I thought for a
moment it said Nikon D70!  Soon, there won't be any difference, but for the
moment...  The subject is excellent, especially with the light, fluffy hair.
Only thing is - he couldn't have been playing rugby!  ;)

Alan Browne : Oh dear... you've cut the petals off!!!  And a prime example
of why that's perfectly fine to do.  Like Rich Pos's, you've broken a rule
without me really noticing it - it's a lovely photo, and it took me a while
to work out what you might have been getting at.  I totally agree, cutting
objects off the frame (including tops of heads), is never always a bad
thing.

Jim Kramer : This is another one where I can't see the rule.  I think it's
very clever the way you've managed to pan the dog moving like that.  The
slight motion blur in the rest of the picture is a bit disconcerting.  On
the whole, this photo does catch your eye.  On closer inspection, it gives
me a bit of a headache - partly due to the overcast day (they always give me
headaches) and the motion blur.  The way the dog is framed is pretty good,
but it's unfortunate the main subject is clipped.

Al Denelsbeck : I suppose you're getting at 'thirds'.  I dislike the idea of
thirds.  In fact, I dislike many of the rules people say you should try when
taking photos (in this respect I disagree with the column at the back of
amateur photographer who says you should at least consider them).  And this
photo definetely helps disprove that idea.  It seems like a very intriguing
piece of equipment you've got, and I really like the result.  It's one of
those photos that takes you there.  However, my only criticism is the lack
of detail, particularly in the deep foliage - was this due to Ir or a low
res?  (just don't tell me it's noise reduction, please!).

Paul Bielec : I really like this photo.  What I think makes it good is a
couple of things.  Firstly, the two shoots just below are well-positioned,
in an original way.  Secondly, the tonality is excellent.  You've managed to
retain contrast in the main subject, while being able to isolate it clearly
from the background, using texture, tone difference and colour.

My own photo was taken recently in a quaint French cafe in the outskirts of
Oxford.  This photo is cluttered and the composition is odd.  I am terrible
at isolating my subject - forcing myself to simplify my photos actually
pains me, which is why most of my photos aren't that good.  But I like this
one.  Tell me what you think.

Duncan.
That_Rich - 25 May 2005 01:02 GMT
On Tue, 24 May 2005 23:32:28 +0100, "Duncan J Murray"
<duncan.murray@remove.this.bit.medical-school.and.this.bit.oxford.ac.uk>
wrote:

>Rich Pos : Crazy and a bit different would describe a few photos here, but
>not this one.  This one manages to break the rule without appearing to.  My
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>because it obviously works in the centre.  It's a good photo, just I don't
>see it being great.

Hi Duncan, thanks for your astute commentary of the BTR gallery.

Always has been my belief that the 1st rule of photography is " there
ain't no rules".

I can live with "good photo" as I have been doing photography off and
on for over thirty years and am still working on a "great" photo.
Heck, in all that time I may have only a handful of good ones..
Any suggestions on what might have been available to improve this
photo? I shot a few different angles and also shot a few vertically
but this one was the most pleasing to me.

I'll keep trying for that elusive great one :)

Thanks,

RP©
Tony Polson - 25 May 2005 01:15 GMT
>Always has been my belief that the 1st rule of photography is " there
>ain't no rules".

There are two rules of photography:

1.  There are no rules.

2.  Please refer to Rule 1.
Duncan J Murray - 25 May 2005 19:24 GMT
> Hi Duncan, thanks for your astute commentary of the BTR gallery.

Thanks.

> Always has been my belief that the 1st rule of photography is " there
> ain't no rules".
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Any suggestions on what might have been available to improve this
> photo?

I don't think the photo you took could have been taken any better.  The
tone, colour, sharpness and composition are all as good as can be.  I
suppose what I meant was that it wouldn't be possible to have done better,
but as nice as mushroom's are, they don't engage me emotionally, and the
one's that engage me emotionally tend to contain either people, animals,
cast lanscapes, and some architecture in the right setting etc..  Maybe
other people are different?  Any comment here?  Can anyone find me a 'great'
photo where mushrooms are the subject?

> I shot a few different angles and also shot a few vertically
> but this one was the most pleasing to me.

I would agree (using my imagination of course).  I also think the gold
reflector was quite an inspired idea.

> I'll keep trying for that elusive great one :)

Yeah!  I don't think I've ever taken a photo that moves me, as yet....
:(    The closest I've come is a shot of the sun setting over Hong Kong when
I went there on holiday.  I enlarged it to 16x11" and it's quite romantic.
However, the biggest emotion I get when I see it is that I wish I were on
holiday!!!!

Duncan.
That_Rich - 25 May 2005 23:20 GMT
On Wed, 25 May 2005 19:24:54 +0100, "Duncan J Murray"
<duncan.murray@remove.this.bit.medical-school.and.this.bit.oxford.ac.uk>
wrote:

>> Hi Duncan, thanks for your astute commentary of the BTR gallery.
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>However, the biggest emotion I get when I see it is that I wish I were on
>holiday!!!!

Ahhhh, I see what you're saying Duncan. Perhaps that is part of my
problem with finding a picture I've shot that *I* think is great. I
really don't have one particular type of photo I prefer over another.
I know what I like and what I don't like but both categories can be
and usually are extremely varied.
Hmmm, I'll need to give this some thought... let me go get the 16 year
old bourbon and get back to you :)

RP©
Duncan J Murray - 29 May 2005 21:37 GMT
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 19:24:54 +0100, "Duncan J Murray"
> <duncan.murray@remove.this.bit.medical-school.and.this.bit.oxford.ac.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> Hmmm, I'll need to give this some thought... let me go get the 16 year
> old bourbon and get back to you :)

Hmmm, I've been thinking about this since you've brought it up, too!  Having
someone else say it has made it seem clearer, while opening up a whole can
of other questions.

Duncan.
Colin D - 26 May 2005 05:33 GMT
> Yeah!  I don't think I've ever taken a photo that moves me, as yet....
> :(    The closest I've come is a shot of the sun setting over Hong Kong when
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Duncan.

You've just given me great enlightenment, Duncan.

I have long thought the same thing - why do my shots not interest or
move me like other photogs' shots do, but other people seem to like
(some of) them?  I've never had the thought in sharp enough focus to
realize why, but I think its because I am involved and familiar with my
stuff from the moment I shot it, even before I print it, so there's no
moment of surprise or revelation, of absorbing a new image, as there is
with seeing another's work.

I can recall seeing some shots which, on initial viewing, generated in
me a profound emotional reaction, like a punch in the chest, an internal
visceral reaction that sometimes took my breath away.  I think it's
probably impossible to get that reaction with one's own work.  The best
you can do is give that sort of reaction to others with your work.  If
you can do that, you're a photographer.

So, we should see and absorb other photog's shots to get that 'high' we
seem to need from images.  An excellent reason for the shoot-in.

Only problem is, it's easier to view other shots than it is to produce
your own.  I stand convicted by my own remarks.

Colin
Duncan J Murray - 29 May 2005 21:46 GMT
>> Yeah!  I don't think I've ever taken a photo that moves me, as yet....
>> :(    The closest I've come is a shot of the sun setting over Hong Kong
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> moment of surprise or revelation, of absorbing a new image, as there is
> with seeing another's work.

Yes!  So that probably explains why I'm often disapointed with my own
photos, and get more depressed when I see other people's ones!!  The problem
is that I can't tell when other people like my photos, because they could
just be being polite.

> I can recall seeing some shots which, on initial viewing, generated in
> me a profound emotional reaction, like a punch in the chest, an internal
> visceral reaction that sometimes took my breath away.  I think it's
> probably impossible to get that reaction with one's own work.  The best
> you can do is give that sort of reaction to others with your work.  If
> you can do that, you're a photographer.

If only...  So how does one go about taking a photo that evokes this sense
in other people?  Maybe it just 'happens', or maybe the photographers are
conscious of what they are doing?  And then once you've taken it, how do you
know if it does what you want it to?

> So, we should see and absorb other photog's shots to get that 'high' we
> seem to need from images.  An excellent reason for the shoot-in.

Good point!

> Only problem is, it's easier to view other shots than it is to produce
> your own.  I stand convicted by my own remarks.

I often find I get inspired by really good photos.  I think photography is a
bit like music.  Photography evolves with the times (not talking about
hardware), new techniques and styles come and go.  Some good photos stand
the test of time, others fall after the second look.  Some photos catch your
eye years after it was taken, with their interest developing with time.  If
the photos you take aren't appreciated at the moment, maybe they'll be
appreciated later ;)

Duncan.
jimkramer - 25 May 2005 01:11 GMT
> Please don't take offence at any of my criticism.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> me headaches) and the motion blur.  The way the dog is framed is pretty
> good, but it's unfortunate the main subject is clipped.

I promise not to take offence.

Motion blur? Overcast day?  At 1/640s and f/13?  It was a very bright sunny
morning.

Clipped the main subject, why, I didn't even notice that, :-) And you said
you don't see the broken rule(s)

Thanks for commenting,  I appreciate the effort that went into it.
Jim Kramer
Duncan J Murray - 25 May 2005 10:41 GMT
> Motion blur? Overcast day?  At 1/640s and f/13?  It was a very bright
> sunny morning.

I'm not sure why I thought it was overcast!  I guess I would have expected
the shadows to be darker?  And there seems a slight cold colour cast.

You've done an excellent job of panning the dog - his eyes are perfectly
sharp, and I think the result of this has given a touch of motion blur to
the rest of the photo.  As someone else has mentioned, this helps to single
out the dog as the subject.

> Clipped the main subject, why, I didn't even notice that, :-) And you said
> you don't see the broken rule(s)

Ahhhh... I see.  Well, you've broken the rule in quite a risky area, it
being the dog's head, but you have managed to keep both of the eyes in the
photo.  That fact that the dog is leaving the photo already, I'll admit,
does add to the dog's expression : it appears to have decided where it's
going next.

> Thanks for commenting,  I appreciate the effort that went into it.
> Jim Kramer

Thankyou.  I do like this photo - though I prefer the thumbnail.  The only
thing is that it does give me a bit of a headache - I think my eyes are
trying to focus on the slightly blurry bits, and failing miserably!

Duncan.
Al Denelsbeck - 27 May 2005 03:47 GMT
> Firstly, I was really impressed with everyone's entries this time -
> does that say something about breaking rules?  In that 'good' photos
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> they are used on purpose. Anyway, it probably says something about
> breaking that rule that none of the excellent photos here have done.

       I, for one, viewed the mandate as a method of illustrating that blind
following of the "rules" was not only unnecessary, it could be detrimental
to the image. Photographic rules are usually a starting point for refining
the work of a beginner, and as such are poorly named.


<snippage>

> Al Denelsbeck : I suppose you're getting at 'thirds'.  I dislike the
> idea of thirds.  In fact, I dislike many of the rules people say you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> in the deep foliage - was this due to Ir or a low res?  (just don't
> tell me it's noise reduction, please!).

       Loss of detail is a definite trait of the half-a.s method of IR
photography I was using, which basically consists of exploiting the longer
wavelength sensitivity of the digital sensor in the Canon Pro 90 IS with an
IR gel filter. No noise reduction, but I did convert the image to true
greyscale, which eliminated the faint purple tint and color speckling that
certainly resembled noise - I'm hesitant to say that it truly was, since it
may have been an accurate sensor response to the smidgen of "visible" light
that the filter let through.

       What might be an interesting thing to speculate on is *why* a radical
departure from thirds works in this case. But I've been trying to figure
out why thirds works as often as it does in the first place.

       And what if I'd put the boaters on the other side, facing the edge of
the frame?

       Anyway, thanks for commenting! Maybe one of these evenings I'll get
around to typing out mine...

    - Al.

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That_Rich - 27 May 2005 03:55 GMT
>Anyway, thanks for commenting! Maybe one of these evenings I'll get
>around to typing out mine...

Far more productive than corresponding with the mordant Roxy D'Urban.

RP©
-
I plan on living forever... so far, so good.

       -Father Guido-
Al Denelsbeck - 27 May 2005 04:02 GMT
>>Anyway, thanks for commenting! Maybe one of these evenings I'll get
>>around to typing out mine...
>
> Far more productive than corresponding with the mordant Roxy D'Urban.

       Takes a lot longer, though. Flaming Dallas is pretty simple - just
about effortless, really ;-)

       Commentary usually takes me a couple of hours, because I sit down and
try to define what I get from the image - just my way I suppose. Most
evenings, however, this seems too much like work and I'm more in the mood
for entertainment.

       Maybe if I get home at a decent hour tomorrow. Or just call in sick.
Hey!...

    - Al.

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Roxy d'Urban - 27 May 2005 07:46 GMT
>         Takes a lot longer, though. Flaming Dallas is pretty simple - just
> about effortless, really ;-)

Which is patently obvious given how poor you are at it.

>         Commentary usually takes me a couple of hours, because I sit down and
> try to define what I get from the image - just my way I suppose. Most
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>         Maybe if I get home at a decent hour tomorrow. Or just call in sick.
> Hey!...

You mean to say that you are just somebody's lackey? A 9-5er? Interesting.
I thought you were a captain of industry.

Signature

"I'm here to make pictures, not friends."
~ Chris Buck

Roxy d'Urban - 27 May 2005 07:49 GMT
>>Anyway, thanks for commenting! Maybe one of these evenings I'll get
>>around to typing out mine...
>
> Far more productive than corresponding with the mordant Roxy D'Urban.

Hey, I learned a new word today! Thank's Rich. I might even change my
handle to Mordant Roxy.

Signature

"I'm here to make pictures, not friends."

~ Chris Buck

Duncan J Murray - 29 May 2005 21:51 GMT
>    What might be an interesting thing to speculate on is *why* a radical
> departure from thirds works in this case. But I've been trying to figure
> out why thirds works as often as it does in the first place.

You can try to explain why it works, but I don't think composition is
something that can be explained - the human brain is so complex, it
processes images in very strange ways, and then combines it with your memory
and past experiences.

>    And what if I'd put the boaters on the other side, facing the edge of
> the frame?

I think that would be a little unsettling.  Though, I think the photo would
have worked just as well without the boater in the picture.

Duncan.
Mr. Mark - 27 May 2005 04:47 GMT
> Mark Lauter : I really like this photo because I firmly believe that you
> don't need things to be sharp for it to be a good photo.  It has lovely
> colour, texture and framing, conveying a real sense of emotion - you feel
> like you are there and can empathise with the life of the three subjects.

My girlfriend's influence.  It was hard for me to relinquish the control
freak inside me to just let this photo happen, but my girlfriend shoots like
this all the time.

> I was reading recently in 'digital photographer' (an excellent magazine,
apart
> from their obsession of digital, bad spelling and often shockingly low dpi
> printed on expensive paper) an article on travel photography where one of
> the photographer's mentions that the difference between bad and good travel
> photography is that bad photography simply brags to people about where
> you've been, good photography actually takes them there.

That's a neat way to think about it.  Of course we take our requisite
"loving couple in front of famous thing" photos too. :)

> This photo 'takes
> me there' - and breaking the rule was a key part to its success.

That's a fantastic compliment.  Thank you.

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