Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / May 2005
[SI] Breaking the Rules - Critique
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Bandicoot - 23 May 2005 16:07 GMT Well, I did say I hoped this mandate would provoke some discussion, so I guess I'd better get to work and do a critique to get the ball rolling...
As usual, comments are from a very personal perspective. Overall, I like the group of work I'm looking at.
Tom Hudson: this is one of my favourites. Which rule is being broken - is it that the main subject isn't the one that's in focus, or is it that it is, and it is the subject that's looking away from the camera? Either way it is a very effective double 'portrait', and maybe the uncertainty about which one is the 'main' subject is part of why it works so well. The DoF is just right, still leaving the defocused 'second subject' clearly separated from the background, and leaving enough detail in the background for it to be recognisable what it is without it being distracting.
Mark Lauter: another case of focus - or at least, sharpness - being the key 'rule' that is broken. The panning blur has turned the water into a very attractive background, giving almost a brush-stroke effect that heightens the sense of this being an impressionist painting. The three birds (just the right number!) are well placed in the frame, and I like the muted colour palette. The rocks(?) bottom right help anchor the image, and prevent the background from being too uniform. I could see this one hanging on the wall.
Paul. Furman: well, as a self portrait you've certainly made a good pun on your own name! I'm not sure which 'rule' I'd say was being broken here, but it's certainly an effective image, and the exposure works well for what is not an easy shot to expose. I like the positioning of the clouds a lot: they balance the image perfectly, and the way the flare spots 'lead' to the highlight on the cheekbone is also effective. Much more interesting than the usual self portrait.
Rich Pos: rather a beautiful image, but I'm not sure which 'rule' is being broken, unless it is the central placement of the subject. In this instance that works well, because it emphasises the way that the bracket fungus is divided into 'halves' but they are not mirror images of each other. The foliage on the right, slight curve of the tree-trunk, and the OoF trees in the background also all add effective elements of asymmetry that work to make that central placement feel 'right'. I like the bokeh of the background, but wonder if the shadows are a tiny bit dark, and the highlights _just_ blown out - that may well be down to scanning/post-processing though, of course: I can't tell. This is a little different from the average mushroom shot, and I like it for that.
Peter Boorman ('Bandicoot'): yes, that's me. Perhaps I should leave it to someone else to say which 'rules' they think I was deliberately breaking. The three main figures are all friends at a party where I'd been asked to provide a few shots. I was shooting colour as well, but wanted to use some B&W and so used a single roll of Kodak T400CN in a Ricoh R1 that I could slip in a pocket. The R1 has a switchable lens giving full frame 30mm or a cropped 'panoramic' 24mm - you can 'fix' it so it'll give full frame 24mm too, but then the corners vignette severely. I like it as a B&W camera: I seldom use on with colour. The 24mm pano. format is good in crowds, and not as unflattering as using the 21mm lens on my GR21 - another 'pocketable' option - would be. The very white T-shirt is deliberate, but I know it is slightly blown out on this scan: that is the scan, not the negative, so I must scan it again when I have time.
Owamanga!: lots of 'rules' being broken here - the subject is unsharp, no one is looking at the camera, the subject is cut-off by the edge of the frame, and there are things poking into the image that we can't even identify. All of which is good! I like this shot, as it seems to capture something of the sense of wonder and uncertainty the baby must be experiencing as it explores and learns about the world. Having the baby not wholly framed by the edge of the mage adds to the sense of movement: s/he is crawling _into_ the frame rather than being tracked _by_ the frame. The other elements, just out of focus blurs, balance the composition nicely by their placement, and because we can't really work out what they are, they don't distract us from the subject. Another one I really like.
Walt Hanks: Walt has told us which 'rules' he broke, and also why the 'style' of the image particular fits the character of the subject. It's certainly a very effective portrait. The boy is looking out of frame, but has more space in the frame in the direction he is looking, so this is more a bending than a breaking of a rule, perhaps, but the focus is certainly unconventional. Because the ball is sharper than the boy's face it gains in relative importance, helping to overcome, to an extent, the way that the human brain locks onto a face in any image (the hidden face in Owamanga!'s picture is another example of a picture that would be less interesting if the face were allowed to dominate). Here the boy seems to be trying to decide whether he wants to throw the ball to someone else, or keep hold of it, and by making the ball sharper we are brought into that uncertainty much more directly than we would be if we concentrated on his face and saw the ball only as a secondary object. The way he holds the ball with his jacket cuffs, not actually touching it with his hands, adds to that sense of ambivalence about what he wants to do with it. Very effective portrait.
Alan Browne: I don't know which 'rule' Alan is breaking - unless it is the one about hand-holding a macro shot! He's focused pretty much where I would have, though maybe I'd have gone for a tiny bit more DoF around the stamens. The placement in the frame, and the cutting off of the ends of most of the petals works just right, for me, but I'm a little unsure about the of mass of another flower at top left: it seems to unbalance the picture a little for me,without any similar masses elsewhere in the background to balance it. The tiny bright sliver of pink to bottom right is also slightly distracting. Since this is the kind of shot I do thousands of, and for money, maybe I'm more picky than I should be, and probably am much more prone to apply my own specific style to looking at this than I would be with, say, a portrait which is something I do very little of. Indeed, apart form those two minor quibbles about the background, I like this shot - probably because the framing and composition are very close to what I would probably have done myself: well, we all have our prejudices.
Jim Kramer: I think the dog may be trying its best to break the rules of gravity here... This is a quirky shot, leaving the viewer wondering what's going on. The cut-off of the dog's ear, and the man's presence suggested only by a shoe and jeans leg, both add to the feeling of dynamism. There are several things in the shot, but all but the dog and the jeans leg have been reduced to very simple shapes, and that gives the image a certain power. On one level it is almost a snap-shot, clearly grabbed quickly, yet it is also effective in this sense of man and dog surrounded by a confusing array of simple but unclear shapes. This one grows on me the more I look at it. Presumably this is some sort of dog show / competition, with the dog carrying the ball round some obstacles?
Al Denelsbeck: strong Woods effect on the trees makes it clear to us this is an IR shot, and deeper IR than most films go, while the lack of halation tells us it wasn't done on HIE - so we know it's probably digital even before Al tells us it was taken on his 'Hasbro'. The two people in the boat aren't really the 'subject' of this picture, surely the trees are that, but they are the 'key' that anchors it and makes it much more than just a shot of trees that is interesting only because of the IR effect. Their placement is certainly unconventional, well down in the corner, but it works: it emphasises the size of the trees, and helps to stop the eye from lingering on the boat to the detriment of the foliage. This one too is growing on me, and I like a it a lot. My only problem with the composition is the vertical band of pale foliage just above the water-line on the far right: I find that a little distracting and wonder if it would be better either cropped out, or toned down a bit by burning it in. I suspect this is an image that looks best when printed quite large.
Well, altogether I like this crop of pictures, and am pleased both with the number of the entries and with how few are archive shots, for a mandate that does rather pre-suppose there might be a lot of archive shots. I'm also pleased that Brian has followed it with a serendipity mandate, as it emphasises the point I hoped to make with this one: that I was looking for shots that worked because they deliberately broke 'rules', not the ones Brian has asked for that work despite, or because, they accidentally 'went wrong'. Both can be fun, and they aren't the same. (I think I know what I'll put in for Brain's mandate already, if I can find the print and scan it in time.)
Peter
 Signature http://www.bard-hill.co.uk
jimkramer - 23 May 2005 16:51 GMT > Well, I did say I hoped this mandate would provoke some discussion, so I > guess I'd better get to work and do a critique to get the ball rolling... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > it. Presumably this is some sort of dog show / competition, with the dog > carrying the ball round some obstacles? Thanks for commenting so quickly and thoroughly. This was taken at a Flyball practice day. The dogs run over 4 jumps and hit the "box" which releases a tennis ball. The dog is supposed to grab the ball and run back over the four jumps. It is typically done as a relay race with two teams of four dogs. It was fun to watch and to photograph. I like doing dog sports photography because you never really know what the dog is going to do. Now if event photography just paid a great deal more.....
Other shots from the day:
Restrained jumping? http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/DogSports/GDGFB052205/IMG_6684.htm
Only the nose knows. http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/DogSports/GDGFB052205/IMG_6711.htm
What Ball!? http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/DogSports/GDGFB052205/IMG_6861.htm
The unexpected course. http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/DogSports/GDGFB052205/IMG_6899.htm
Thanks for looking, Jim Kramer
Mr. Mark - 23 May 2005 17:13 GMT > Mark Lauter: <snip>
> I could see this one hanging on the wall. WOW! IMO that's the highest praise possible. Thank you.
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
Owamanga - 23 May 2005 17:17 GMT I read Bandicoot's one and thought I'd steal his format...
Tom Hudson: Focus not on the obvious subject, and some blown highlights. One of my favorite shots because the identity of the kids isn't obvious which makes it somewhat abstract. Slightly washed out coloring, slight overexposure, good color coordination between the two children and an excellent choice of framing make this photo work.
Mark Lauter: Nice, almost abstract again, without having sharp focus on the birds, the scene still makes sense. Some rules haven't been broken, and this helps support the picture: Birds are flying into the frame, birds form triangle, rule of thirds almost met.
Paul. Furman: Broken the first rule of photography: Never photograph up your own nostrils. Photographing with a dirty filter, without a hood, including the sun, getting flare - all rules broken. Why does it work? - Very powerful image, framing is superb, harsh lighting helps the macho image, and the blue sky explains the shot. Rays of flare seemingly emanating from your eye are a little strange....
Rich Pos: Rule of thirds being broken. Rule of fungus being broken (always shoot BW)... I can't help thinking it would look better in BW with a bit of soft focus... dunno... An interesting shot none the less.
Peter Boorman ('Bandicoot'): Rules broken? got far too close for a portrait, flash on side of camera throwing ugly shadows, everybody's looking off frame, strange black shadow intersects the brunette's face. Well, it's another favorite of mine in this set mainly due to the harsh lighting but also it's interesting crop, cute girls, mixed race crowd, B&W, everybody is doing something and ignoring the camera. You really get the feeling that they are crammed in there and enjoying themselves.
Owamanga!: (mine) Framed as shot. Rules broken: much too slow a shutter speed for close-object movement, shooting down onto the child instead of from it's level, main POI is almost central (rule of thirds), motion leading out of frame. Why I thought it still works... bright color of the cycle helmet, the sense of awkward motion, the triangle of three items - the child, the chair leg and the toy that define the frame and the openness/unclutteredness of the image that let you still work out what it is you are looking at.
Walt Hanks: Walt's explanation explains his reasoning well. This works for me due to the contrast between the child's head and the rest of the image, also between his eyes and his face. The conveying of loneliness is helped by the fact the boy pays no attention to the camera.
Alan Browne: What rule was broken? Over cropping of the flower? DOF too shallow? Other petals top left and bottom right distracting? If so, these are relatively minor. The flower has a real 3D feel to it, and the only thing I'd change is to warm it up a little in PS. Of course if the hundreds of Orchid shots I've seen are part of the rule set, this one should have been ripped from it's plant, stuck in a studio with a black background and sprayed with a fine mist prior to shooting it. (I'm not claiming it's an Orchid, I have no idea what it is..).
Jim Kramer: So, the dogs head was obscured slightly, and the subject is heading out of frame. The picture works despite that. Framing this way was a necessity to explain the image, so it's fine. Focus wise, the dog's head is spot on, the rest of the scene suffers blur - again, no problem and it helps draw your attention to the dog and it's expression.
Al Denelsbeck: Rule of thirds again I guess... But you've met other rules that make this work: kept the horizon away from the center of the frame, kept the boat moving into the frame and used IR for an interesting foliage shot that would otherwise have been far less powerful.
I enjoyed these, it was a good choice of mandate.
-- Owamanga! http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
Walt Hanks - 23 May 2005 18:29 GMT > Walt Hanks: Walt's explanation explains his reasoning well. This works > for me due to the contrast between the child's head and the rest of > the image, also between his eyes and his face. The conveying of > loneliness is helped by the fact the boy pays no attention to the > camera. Thanks to you as well. There were several shots where he was looking at me, but they just didn't capture his mood the way this one did.
Walt
Duncan J Murray - 24 May 2005 23:56 GMT >> Walt Hanks: Walt's explanation explains his reasoning well. This works >> for me due to the contrast between the child's head and the rest of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Walt The more I look at this photo - the more I like it. There's a part of me that wants to be that person - lost in his own world. When I was that age I had the luxury of being able to do that, now, it's just not possible :(
Duncan.
Paul Furman - 23 May 2005 19:35 GMT > Paul. Furman: Broken the first rule of photography: Never photograph > up your own nostrils. At least I didn't submit this one: http://www.edgehill.net/temp.jpg <cringe> Here's a more realistic view: <http://www.edgehill.net/1/Misc/misc-photos/2005-03-24-beard/more/0-141132+.jpg>
> Owamanga!: (mine) > Why I thought it still works... > ..the openness/unclutteredness of the image This cleanness really makes it work.
 Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 san francisco native plants
Bandicoot - 23 May 2005 22:12 GMT "Owamanga" <owamanga(not-this-bit)@hotmail.com
> wrote in message news:o7u391devi8bhhho3ahcse456eg895f4lv@4ax.com... > I read Bandicoot's one and thought I'd steal his format... LOL - help yourself!
[SNIP]
> Peter Boorman ('Bandicoot'): Rules broken? got far too > close for a portrait, flash on side of camera throwing ugly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > camera. You really get the feeling that they are crammed in > there and enjoying themselves. Thanks: I think you seem to like it for the same reason it appeals to me, which is pleasing. Getting that close is pretty well inevitable for (un-posed) shots of this sort of event, so I try to make a virtue out of a necessity by making use of the dynamism it can provide. This time it was just as Femi (the black guy at the left) turned that I 'saw' the composition, with the girl half seen on the extreme left adding emphasis to his out-turned gaze. I'm not sure why looking away emphasises the two girls in the back, but I think it does. And yes, everyone certainly was enjoying themselves!
I'll tell Jane you think she's cute ;-)
Peter
That_Rich - 23 May 2005 23:05 GMT >Rich Pos: Rule of thirds being broken. Rule of fungus being broken >(always shoot BW)... I can't help thinking it would look better in BW >with a bit of soft focus... dunno... An interesting shot none the >less. Agree about the B&W. I have shot a few 'shrooms in the past and B&W is nice. With the overcast sky and the moist air I figured color would be nice and in hindsight glad I shot in color.
Thanks,
RP©
Al Denelsbeck - 26 May 2005 01:45 GMT > I read Bandicoot's one and thought I'd steal his format... <snippo>
> Al Denelsbeck: Rule of thirds again I guess... But you've met other > rules that make this work: kept the horizon away from the center of > the frame, kept the boat moving into the frame and used IR for an > interesting foliage shot that would otherwise have been far less > powerful. There are some rules that I'm loathe to break, and while chasing shots that day I found myself staying firmly within good compositional practices rather than trying to force them out. Sigh...
I've been playing a lot with IR the past couple weeks, mostly to see exactly what it does before I start using the roll of HIE in the Elan IIe (and yes, I know I can expect fogging from that body). I'm in search of the situation where it induces more contrast than is normally visible, rather than less - nearly all foliage blends together, so while you might get a shot of "unnatural" brightness over typical B&W response, you still have the same kind of contrasting elements, such as trees and sky. Basically an exaggerated version of filtered B&W work. Except that yellow flowers and green leaves all blend together. I'm trying to find situations where IR makes the contrast leap out over a straight film situation. We'll see...
Thanks for commenting!
- Al.
 Signature To reply, insert dash in address to match domain below Online photo gallery at www.wading-in.net
Duncan J Murray - 26 May 2005 01:52 GMT > I've been playing a lot with IR the past couple weeks, mostly to see > exactly what it does before I start using the roll of HIE in the Elan IIe [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > green leaves all blend together. I'm trying to find situations where IR > makes the contrast leap out over a straight film situation. We'll see... Maybe try more foliage and water combinations - they should be extremes. You could maybe shoot foliage with water behind to bring it out more.
Duncan.
Bandicoot - 28 May 2005 02:58 GMT [SNIP]
> There are some rules that I'm loathe to break, and while > chasing shots that day I found myself staying firmly within > good compositional practices rather than trying to force > them out. Sigh... But that's the point: your composition doesn't follow those trite 'rules' about thirds or even the golden section, yet it has a fundamental 'rightness' about it. It 'breaks the rules' and is a better picture because you composed the way it looked best, rahter than being bound by someone elses formulations.
> I've been playing a lot with IR the past couple weeks, > mostly to see exactly what it does before I start using the > roll of HIE in the Elan IIe (and yes, I know I can expect > fogging from that body). I'm in search of the situation where > it induces more contrast than is normally visible, rather
> than less - nearly all foliage blends together, so while you > might get a shot of "unnatural" brightness over typical B&W > response, you still have the same kind of contrasting
> elements, such as trees and sky. Basically an exaggerated > version of filtered B&W work. Except that yellow flowers > and green leaves all blend together. I'm trying to find > situations where IR makes the contrast leap out over a > straight film situation. We'll see... Water lilies in a pool? White leaves, black water...
Peter
Alan Browne - 29 May 2005 01:24 GMT > Alan Browne: What rule was broken? Over cropping of the flower? DOF > too shallow? Other petals top left and bottom right distracting? If > so, these are relatively minor. The flower has a real 3D feel to it, > and the only thing I'd change is to warm it up a little in PS. Of Thanks for the 3D comment. I was seeing it on my monitor and then wondering it was just me.
I am having some PITA between Elemets 3.0 for print work and Elements 3.0 for web posting. To look right on print I have to use the Adobe RGB settings; to look right on the web I have to use sRGB. Sometimes I forget to switch to the right mode before opening a file... PITA. I might re-install Elements 2.0 and operate it seperately for Web postings.
> course if the hundreds of Orchid shots I've seen are part of the rule > set, this one should have been ripped from it's plant, stuck in a > studio with a black background and sprayed with a fine mist prior to > shooting it. (I'm not claiming it's an Orchid, I have no idea what it > is..). Apple blossom. About 3 cm across.
I was shooting flowers at my SO's today ... using difused flash (windy) ... I keep meaning to mist the flowers, but never get round to it.
> I enjoyed these, it was a good choice of mandate. HOOEY! I didnt' take care to break or not break any rules.
Cheers, Alan.
 Signature -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
Walt Hanks - 23 May 2005 18:28 GMT > Well, I did say I hoped this mandate would provoke some discussion, so I > guess I'd better get to work and do a critique to get the ball rolling... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > cuffs, not actually touching it with his hands, adds to that sense of > ambivalence about what he wants to do with it. Very effective portrait. Thank you for those kind words. I hadn't even considered how he was holding the ball, but you're right about the ambivalence. There was a football game going on behind him and another adult trying to get him to play catch, and he just played by himself. I'm glad you felt I effectively captured the mood of the child.
Walt
Paul Furman - 23 May 2005 19:11 GMT > Well, altogether I ...am pleased ... > with how few are archive shots Heh, shot that a few minutes after reading the mandate & a few replies.
 Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 san francisco native plants
That_Rich - 23 May 2005 22:53 GMT >Rich Pos: rather a beautiful image, but I'm not sure which 'rule' is being >broken, unless it is the central placement of the subject. In this instance [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >scanning/post-processing though, of course: I can't tell. This is a little >different from the average mushroom shot, and I like it for that Hi Peter, thanks for commenting on the gallery. BreakingTheRules..... as you mentioned the subject(s) are dead center, the tree is splitting the vertical down the middle, the shadows are blocked and the highlights are blown... despite all that I like the shot :) Printed very well indeed. I was rather surprised to find the exposure somewhat off when the neg was scanned. I took three shots, one at meter, one a stop above and another a stop below. The one you see is one stop under which goes against all logic. Oh well, that's photography. I *think* what may have messed the meter is I used a 42" gold reflector bouncing just a hint of light on the underside of the oysters. The day was perfect for this type of shot. Had been raining for 12 hours, the rain stopped minutes before I took this shot and the sky was still overcast.
Kodak UC100, Canon AE1P, 100mm 4.0 macro, Slik tripod, gold reflector, cable release, IIRC 1/60 @ f 5.6, HP-s10 film scanner, PS 7.01 for curve adjustment and USM.
Cheers,
RP©
Bandicoot - 28 May 2005 03:04 GMT > >Rich Pos: rather a beautiful image, but I'm not sure which > >'rule' is being broken, unless it is the central placement of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > below. The one you see is one stop under which goes > against all logic. Interesting: was that some type of matrix metering? I'd have expected (like you) that you'd want to give a little extra exposure if it had been centre weighted or spotted on teh mushrooms.
> Oh well, that's photography. I *think* what may have > messed the meter is I used a 42" gold reflector bouncing [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > HP-s10 film scanner, PS 7.01 for curve adjustment and > USM. Interesting, thanks for that detail. I had actually wondered if there was some reflected fill on the undersides. How much did you have to tweak the curves - was it just to control the contrast or did you do more than that?
Cheers,
Peter
That_Rich - 28 May 2005 04:45 GMT >> Hi Peter, thanks for commenting on the gallery. >> BreakingTheRules..... as you mentioned the subject(s) are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >you) that you'd want to give a little extra exposure if it had been centre >weighted or spotted on teh mushrooms. The AE1P has bottom center weighted metering. I was fully expecting the +1 exp to be the keeper, thank jah for bracketing. Should have brought the spot meter but I was already bogged down with gear. It was really muddy and slippery that day as it had been raining for several hours. Managed to lose one of my tripod feet hooking it on some brush. THK INC., the distributor of Slik in North America sent out a replacement plus an extra foot the same day. Very responsive customer service as my emails were answered within minutes and a rep called ME an hour later. They deserve a plug here :)
>> Oh well, that's photography. I *think* what may have >> messed the meter is I used a 42" gold reflector bouncing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >some reflected fill on the undersides. How much did you have to tweak the >curves - was it just to control the contrast or did you do more than that? Angled the reflector for just a touch of fill. I also took a shot with the full blast of the reflector that looked terrible, like I used to much flash. Used curves to tone down contrast a bit as the highlights were quite extreme in the original scan then bumped up green a hair. During the scan I do nothing other than +.5% white point, all the tweaking is done in PS. Takes more time that way but I prefer the results. The final output is pretty much the way it looked.. to me anyway. I'm still learning how to use curves as I felt it was time to get away from all the auto stuff. The only part of the photo that disappointed me was the lack of detail on the tree below the 'shrooms. If only I'd bounced some light there....
Have a nice weekend,
RP©
Bandicoot - 29 May 2005 10:39 GMT [SNIP]
> Have a nice weekend, Thanks for the info., interesting. Still intrigued by the meter going for a stop over the shot you selected.
It's a bank holiday weekend here :-) So it'll probably rain :-(
Peter
Paul Bielec - 24 May 2005 16:33 GMT I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot about it. I submitted it yesterday and I hope that Al will include it in the gallery.
Alan Browne - 24 May 2005 17:15 GMT > I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot > about it. > I submitted it yesterday and I hope that Al will include it in the gallery. Send the bribe money to me and I'll do my best with Al...
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Paul Bielec - 24 May 2005 17:18 GMT >> I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot >> about it. >> I submitted it yesterday and I hope that Al will include it in the >> gallery. > > Send the bribe money to me and I'll do my best with Al... BTW, I'm really impressed by the quality of the picture you submitted. I wonder if any lens on the Digital Rebel would be able to give that result.
Alan Browne - 24 May 2005 18:16 GMT >>> I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot >>> about it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I wonder if any lens on the Digital Rebel would be able to give that > result. It's not that good. It benefitted from being reduced in size for the SI. Properly done, on a windless day and tripod, I could have gotten a little more DOF and a sharper result at full size ... w/o A-S.
The Canon 100mm macro could have done this shot just as easilly, and likely several other lenses, inlcuding Sigma and Tamron.
Cheers, Alan
 Signature -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
Paul Bielec - 24 May 2005 18:23 GMT >>>> I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot >>>> about it. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Cheers, > Alan I know that it could be even better but I'm still impressed by its quality since it is a hand held shot. Was the lens you used a macro? I'll not have a macro lens for a while since I want to get a wide angle L lens first. But I'm already impressed by some macro shots I got using my new 70-200 f4 L.
cheers
Alan Browne - 24 May 2005 19:09 GMT > I know that it could be even better but I'm still impressed by its > quality since it is a hand held shot. > Was the lens you used a macro? Yes. But I was not at 1:1 (about 1:3) and the anti-shake was lending a hand.
> I'll not have a macro lens for a while since I want to get a wide angle > L lens first. But I'm already impressed by some macro shots I got using > my new 70-200 f4 L. Certainly. My 80-200 f/2.8 is not for very close ups. (1.8m).
I do suggest that you look into the Tamrom 90 f/2.8 macro. It is both sharper than the Canon 100mm macro and generally regarded as the best "macro used as a portrait lens" out there. It will be best in the later regard on your film camera.
Cheers, Alan
 Signature -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
ian lincoln - 24 May 2005 20:35 GMT >>>>> I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot >>>>> about it. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > lens first. But I'm already impressed by some macro shots I got using my > new 70-200 f4 L. how are you shooting macro with that lens? Closest focusing is 1.2m
Paul Bielec - 25 May 2005 14:03 GMT >>>>>>I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot >>>>>>about it. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > how are you shooting macro with that lens? Closest focusing is 1.2m Ok, not really macro. Lets call it closeups :)
jimkramer - 24 May 2005 19:38 GMT >I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot about >it. > I submitted it yesterday and I hope that Al will include it in the > gallery. The Breaking the Rules Gallery has been updated with two new images.
Jim Kramer
Paul Bielec - 24 May 2005 21:32 GMT >>I shot a picture for this mandate 2 weeks ago and completely forgot about >>it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jim Kramer thanks
Bandicoot - 25 May 2005 01:57 GMT > Well, I did say I hoped this mandate would provoke some > discussion, so I guess I'd better get to work and do a > critique to get the ball rolling... > > As usual, comments are from a very personal perspective. > Overall, I like the group of work I'm looking at. [SNIP]
Comments on the two late entries:
Paul Bielec: several of the traditional 'rules' are broken here. Centred subject; an 'arrow' that leads out of the frame; flowers photographed in strong, direct, light; flowers against a very dark background; strong patches of colour in that background. Some people might say that photographing the tulips at other than their peak moment of flowering is an 'infraction' too, though I like buds and seedheads just as much as flowers. Whatever, it certainly works. The leaf tip and the second bud give us an asymmetrical, yet balanced, central group that makes the central placement work well, and this is aided by that 'off-balance' background - taken all together this makes for a very dynamic image with a strong sense of movement, even though it is a static subject. The small shadow criss-crossing the stem of the central bud somehow seems rather important in anchoring it as part of that central grouping: without it I think the image would work much less well. Here I think it is a case of some of the broken 'rules' working out because they are balanced by some of the others being broken too: the central flower balances the odd background; the very contrasty subject works because it is set against the dark background. I like this one a lot.
Duncan Murray: is this a self-portrait, or a picture of the girl we find ourselves asking. This is another case (like Tom Hudson's shot) where the point of focus doesn't coincide with what the viewer (initially) assumes is the main subject. Here this forces the eye to look at the detail elsewhere in the scene before it settles back on that enigmatic face in the bottom left. The composition poses several other questions too - like whether the reflected man nearest the mirror is actually talking to the girl, or is part of another group altogether. The odd light in the non-reflected part of the scene makes it seem almost other-worldly, and since the mirror is the brightest, sharpest, and most naturally lit area - and also the area where the photographer is seen - it is almost as if we, the viewers, are the ones who are 'through the looking glass' and looking out. That framed picture top left is very significant, and allows the placement of the girl to work as it does: without it the picture would still work, but its effect would be rather different, with the girl seeming more isolated and less connection between 'her' world and 'ours' - that would be an interesting shot too, but maybe less involving. I wish the highlights seen outside the reflected window were a tiny bit less bright, but I can't see any way that that could have been avoided. This is a very interesting shot that I could see looking at several times over time, and seeing more in it.
Two more very interesting shots - there seems to have been a very high average standard this time round.
> Peter Paul Furman - 25 May 2005 03:37 GMT Thanks, I agree with these comments.
> Duncan Murray: ...That framed picture > top left is very significant, and allows the placement of the girl to work > as it does: without it the picture would still work, but its effect would be > rather different, with the girl seeming more isolated and less connection > between 'her' world and 'ours' Did you notice the other painting in the top of the mirror with the same pose and lighting as the girl? And the guy is in that painting too!
 Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 san francisco native plants
Paul Bielec - 25 May 2005 04:24 GMT >>Well, I did say I hoped this mandate would provoke some >>discussion, so I guess I'd better get to work and do a [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >>Peter Thanks a lot for your comments. It started by taking some shots of flowers while trying a new lens. Then I got the idea of photographing a tulip that didn't open yet as this is something we we don't usually do. This was the main idea behind breaking the rule. I took sevral shots and ended up cropping this one. As you said, there are several things technically not right in this shot, however they do work together. I really like the result.
Duncan J Murray - 29 May 2005 21:35 GMT The leaf tip and the second bud give us an
> asymmetrical, yet balanced, central group that makes the central placement > work well, and this is aided by that 'off-balance' background - taken all > together this makes for a very dynamic image with a strong sense of > movement, even though it is a static subject. I agree, they could almost be three jet-fighters tearing across woodland.
> Duncan Murray: is this a self-portrait, or a picture of the girl we find > ourselves asking. This is another case (like Tom Hudson's shot) where the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ones > who are 'through the looking glass' and looking out. I agree - particularly since the photographer (myself) is blacked out (not intended at the time, but unavoidable without flash). I also think sometimes that we get two views of the 'enigmatic' lady - we can see her face, and also where she's looking at... I think maybe somewhere out the window, or at the guy sitting on his own at the window.
> That framed picture > top left is very significant, and allows the placement of the girl to work [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > could > have been avoided. I never noticed that about the picture, but I suppose you are right, being pretty much the only connection between the two scenes. The highlights were unfortunately quite blown - I tried to leave as much detail as I could, but you can see already that the lady is already falling off the exposure curve.
> This is a very interesting shot that I could see looking > at several times over time, and seeing more in it. Thankyou very much for the observant comments - I love to be able to recreate this kind of photo when I choose to, but I think it came about with a large bit of luck. It stood out to me from a set of 36 slides in holding my attention for a while. I find the photo evokes the same questions in me as you have written about, even though I know the lady - it's shown me a side of her that I don't see when engaged in conversation.
Duncan.
Al Denelsbeck - 26 May 2005 01:34 GMT > Well, I did say I hoped this mandate would provoke some discussion, so > I guess I'd better get to work and do a critique to get the ball > rolling... > > As usual, comments are from a very personal perspective. Overall, I > like the group of work I'm looking at. <snip all dem other people>
> Al Denelsbeck: strong Woods effect on the trees makes it clear to us > this is an IR shot, and deeper IR than most films go, while the lack [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > better either cropped out, or toned down a bit by burning it in. I > suspect this is an image that looks best when printed quite large. Thanks for the comments. This one was "tailored" to fit the mandate slightly better with a tighter crop, since I was undecided what rules I wanted to break and chose this shot from a productive day's pile of images. As indicated, I was trashing the rule of thirds, with a arguable inclusion of two others: one, "don't shoot at midday on bright days" (which is where IR might keep me busy at those times), and two, "don't shoot IR with a camera that's not intended for it". But that could be a stretch... ;-)
I picked this one over another because I felt it worked pretty well as a composition and demonstrated that thirds is a half-a.s concept at best - it reminded me of a discussion long past where someone wanted a focusing screen with lines etched into it right smack on the thirds, and wasn't getting the idea that it was a rough guideline, and didn't require precision adherence to 33.3333333%. Ah well...
And I agree - the trees do seem to be huge in this perspective, yet they're not particularly large. But as a large print it probably would suffer, because the shot isn't that sharp - best guess is the lens isn't optimized for IR work (not even slightly intended for it, and peeking at the blue channel indicates it has some serious color aberrations).
Cheers!
- Al.
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Bandicoot - 28 May 2005 03:15 GMT > > Well, I did say I hoped this mandate would provoke > > some discussion, so I guess I'd better get to work and do [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > Al Denelsbeck: strong Woods effect on the trees makes it > > clear to us this is an IR shot, and deeper IR than most
> > films go, while the lack of halation tells us it wasn't done > > on HIE - so we know it's probably digital even before Al > > tells us it was taken on his 'Hasbro'. The two people in > > the boat aren't really the 'subject' of this picture, surely > > the trees are that, but they are the 'key' that anchors it and > > makes it much more than just a shot of trees that is
> > interesting only because of the IR effect. Their placement > > is certainly unconventional, well down in the corner, but it [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the mandate slightly better with a tighter crop, since I was > undecided what rules I wanted to break and chose this shot > from a productive day's pile of images. As indicated, I was > trashing the rule of thirds, with a arguable inclusion of two
> others: one, "don't shoot at midday on bright days" (which is > where IR might keep me busy at those times), and two,
> "don't shoot IR with a camera that's not intended for it". > But that could be a stretch... ;-) > > I picked this one over another because I felt it worked > pretty well as a composition and demonstrated that thirds is > a half-a.s concept at best
Hear hear! Always seems to me it is really just a poor relation to the golden section, and even then there are plenty of compositions - like yours - that work better by following neither.
Admittedly thirds work better in the 35mm frame than many other formats, because of the 1:1.5 proportions being related to threes - also works better in the square than in other many other shapes. I couldn't imagine anyone recommending it when shooting 6x12 though ;-)
> - it reminded me of a discussion long past where someone > wanted a focusing screen with lines etched into it right > smack on the thirds, and wasn't getting the idea that it was a > rough guideline, and didn't require precision adherence to > 33.3333333%. Ah well... LOL - I remember that one too.
> And I agree - the trees do seem to be huge in this > perspective, yet they're not particularly large. But as a large > print it probably would suffer, because the shot isn't that
> sharp - best guess is the lens isn't optimized for IR work > (not even slightly intended for it, and peeking at the blue > channel indicates it has some serious color aberrations). Were you able to adjust the focus to allow for the IR usage, or would AF not allow that? That might be part of any lack of sharpness?
Peter
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