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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / April 2005MACRO MADNESS WITH THE 20D !!!
Well sports fans, the day has arrived! I have finally obtained the famous Canon 65mm MP-E Macro lens that I have been coveting for some time. I plan to take lots of cool macro shots with this beauty. It's a cool lens. Just resting on the camera it looks like any ordinary 65mm lens. But when you rack it out it snaps to attention and looks almost like a long telephoto. The lens is capable of 5x magnification so it is almost a microscope. It goes almost without saying that Nikon has nothing that can even compare to this lens. So sad. Of course, having all that magnification brings with it some drawbacks. The focusing distance is only a few inches (or less) from the lens. The DOF is almost nil. And keeping the damn thing steady is going to present quite a challenge, even for steady old me. But I did get a new tripod ring out of the deal which I can also use to replace my broken one on the Super 70-200 f/2.8L. Who Rules? Canon recommends using the lens with one of their (expensive) lens-mounted flashes like the Macro Ring Lite MR-14EX or the Macro Twin Lite MT-24EX, and I can see why. The effective aperture goes to f/16.8 (at 5x) when the camera reads f/2.8 so there is tremendous light falloff with this lens. I love how they put it in the manual: "This does not cause exposure problems for normal picture-taking (the MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x lens cannot take normal pictures)." Hey, I love it already! Also, at the close focusing distances you need, the lens itself blocks much of the ambient light. Looks like I'll be using my off-camera shoe cord with the 550EX. Here are a few early samples I took with the lens today. The first is a pic of the letters on the edge of my Compact Flash card. You know how thin these cards are, right? Well the letters in this pic are about half the thickness of the card. http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/41777969/original The next two shots are closeups of my computer monitors. Note the differing patterns between them (maybe someone else can explain why). http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/41777970 http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/41777971 Look for more Macro Madness from the Mighty MP-E coming soon! >Well sports fans, the day has arrived! <snip> As mentioned earlier, I also just bought a macro lens. In lieu of pictures of flash cards and monitors I opted to test it with something more natural. I know it's cliche as hell but I need to start somewhere. http://www.pbase.com/that_rich/image/41737343 Taken at 1/2 life size. My lens will only go 1:1 but for the life of me I can't ever see wanting more magnification. Enjoy your new lens Bret. Macro seems all the rage lately ;) RP© > Well sports fans, the day has arrived! > snaps to attention and looks almost like a long telephoto. The lens is > capable of 5x magnification so it is almost a microscope. It goes Presumably 5x is with film, so on the DSLR that would be more like 7-1/2 times correct? > > Well sports fans, the day has arrived! > > snaps to attention and looks almost like a long telephoto. The lens is > > capable of 5x magnification so it is almost a microscope. It goes > Presumably 5x is with film, so on the DSLR that would be more like 7-1/2 > times correct? Nope. Still 5 times but with a smaller recording area (sensor).  SignatureRonnie Sellar >> Well sports fans, the day has arrived! snaps to attention and looks >> almost like a long telephoto. The lens is capable of 5x >> magnification so it is almost a microscope. It goes > > Presumably 5x is with film, so on the DSLR that would be more like > 7-1/2 times correct? The 5X remains 5X as far as the sensor is concerned. A 2 mm long insect will render 10mm on film and 10mm on the digital sensor. On paper, if you blow up the full image to (eg) 10 inches, then there would be a further apparent magnification, however, as the smaller digital sensor image would have to be magnified more to get there. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>> Well sports fans, the day has arrived! snaps to attention and looks >>> almost like a long telephoto. The lens is capable of 5x [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > would be a further apparent magnification, however, as the smaller digital > sensor image would have to be magnified more to get there. Ahh yeah, that's what I meant. An image printed using the whole frame at the same print size would indicate greater magnification on the 20d than from 35mm. A 7.5x lens would be needed with 35mm film to make the image fill the same proportion of the frame. > Cheers, > Alan > Well sports fans, the day has arrived! Clearly the folks at B&H didn't get our memo... > I have finally obtained the famous Canon 65mm MP-E Macro lens that I > have been coveting for some time. I plan to take lots of cool macro [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > almost without saying that Nikon has nothing that can even compare to > this lens. So sad. Why would Nikon want to lower their standards by competing with Canon when they actually manufacture microscopes (that can be used with Nikon cameras)? > Of course, having all that magnification brings with it some drawbacks. This is where that thing called "skill" comes into effect. > The focusing distance is only a few inches (or less) from the lens. > The DOF is almost nil. Well, that's probably because you haven't left P mode yet. > And keeping the damn thing steady is going to present quite a > challenge, even for steady old me. But I did get a new tripod ring out [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > much of the ambient light. Looks like I'll be using my off-camera shoe > cord with the 550EX. You mean to tell me that your dandy 20D can't fire the flash without a cord attached to it? Wow...some technology you have there. > Here are a few early samples I took with the lens today. > The first is a pic of the letters on the edge of my Compact Flash card. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Look for more Macro Madness from the Mighty MP-E coming soon! Madness indeed. SignatureThe good old days start now. > The focusing distance is only a few inches (or less) from the lens. > The DOF is almost nil. Well, that's probably because you haven't left P mode yet. ================= Hey Brainiac, I'd be interested to know how getting off of "P" mode is gonna help you get more DOF with this lens. As usual, you're just talkin out your a.s. >Hey Brainiac, I'd be interested to know how getting off of "P" mode is >gonna help you get more DOF with this lens. As usual, you're just >talkin out your a.s. Surely increasing the fstop still increases the DOF (even if it's just from "diddly-squat" to "piss all"). For your static subject, I'd have thought "Aperture priority" mode to be more useful. SignatureKen Tough >> Hey Brainiac, I'd be interested to know how getting off of "P" mode >> is gonna help you get more DOF with this lens. As usual, you're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just from "diddly-squat" to "piss all"). For your static subject, > I'd have thought "Aperture priority" mode to be more useful. I think at these distance manual is the best way. Once an exposure is found for that light the exp. won't change as the subject area changes (subject movement). MO. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>Hey Brainiac, I'd be interested to know how getting off of "P" mode is >>gonna help you get more DOF with this lens. As usual, you're just [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just from "diddly-squat" to "piss all"). For your static subject, > I'd have thought "Aperture priority" mode to be more useful. Piss All indeed, as the lens he speaks of only offers f16--even the old pre AI macro I'm using stops down to f32... SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com Surely increasing the fstop still increases the DOF (even if it's just from "diddly-squat" to "piss all"). For your static subject, I'd have thought "Aperture priority" mode to be more useful. ---------------------- I did use Aperture Priority mode, despite what the fool down under says. > Surely increasing the fstop still increases the DOF (even if it's > just from "diddly-squat" to "piss all"). For your static subject, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I did use Aperture Priority mode, despite what the fool down under > says. Christ, I don't know whether to laugh out loud or burst out crying. "Down under"?? Do have any idea where Down Under actually is? Hint: it's not South Africa. SignatureThe good old days start now. > Surely increasing the fstop still increases the DOF (even if it's > just from "diddly-squat" to "piss all"). For your static subject, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I did use Aperture Priority mode, despite what the fool down under > says. Hello Actually with high magnifications, using f16 could quite well cause degradtion, due to diffraction. The aperture becomes very small, acting like a diffraction slit. Mike Engles > >Hey Brainiac, I'd be interested to know how getting off of "P" mode is > >gonna help you get more DOF with this lens. As usual, you're just [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just from "diddly-squat" to "piss all"). For your static subject, > I'd have thought "Aperture priority" mode to be more useful. The P mode on any decent slr will allow you to choose between a range of different aperture / shutter speed combinations. SignatureSander +++ Out of cheese error +++ >>>Hey Brainiac, I'd be interested to know how getting off of "P" mode is >>>gonna help you get more DOF with this lens. As usual, you're just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The P mode on any decent slr will allow you to choose between a range of > different aperture / shutter speed combinations. So will M, A and S. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. "Sander Vesik" <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote in message > The P mode on any decent slr will allow you to choose between a range of > different aperture / shutter speed combinations. Yes. After over a year of taking pictures with my F5, I have come to the conclusion that there is no real difference between, P mode, A mode, S mode, and even manual mode. They all either control the camera via the light meter, and allow over-rides, or give me the light meter read-out on the display, and invite me to choose to accept it's advice or not. IOW, they all do basically the same thing..... > "Sander Vesik" <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote in message > The P mode on > any decent slr will allow you to choose between a range of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > display, and invite me to choose to accept it's advice or not. IOW, they all > do basically the same thing..... The difference is one of guarantees - something matters if the time from where you see something to take a picture of to whereyou can no longer do so is short. The S and A mode gurantee the shot will be taken at the shutter speed or aperture selected (while P gives you "best effort for correct exposure"). SignatureSander +++ Out of cheese error +++ >> "Sander Vesik" <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote in message > The P mode on >> any decent slr will allow you to choose between a range of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > shutter speed or aperture selected (while P gives you "best effort for > correct exposure"). But the 20D isn't going to know to pump up the DOF in P mode by stopping down the lens to its smallest aperture when shooting macro. Odds are that it will always use the maximum shutter speed, unless told otherwise. Bret Douglas, it would appear, doesn't know anything about hyperfocal focussing. SignatureThe good old days start now. > But the 20D isn't going to know to pump up the DOF in P mode by stopping > down the lens to its smallest aperture when shooting macro. Odds are that > it will always use the maximum shutter speed, unless told otherwise. > > Bret Douglas, it would appear, doesn't know anything about hyperfocal > focussing. I was just starting to warm to the idea you took half way decent photos but I see now why all the colour is washed out of them. You used that bloody hyperfocus on them. You really will have to find another detergent to wash out the highlights with. That hyper stuff is way too strong. >> But the 20D isn't going to know to pump up the DOF in P mode by stopping >> down the lens to its smallest aperture when shooting macro. Odds are that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > hyperfocus on them. You really will have to find another detergent to wash > out the highlights with. That hyper stuff is way too strong. LOL! SignatureThe good old days start now. > But the 20D isn't going to know to pump up the DOF in P mode by stopping > down the lens to its smallest aperture when shooting macro. Odds are that > it will always use the maximum shutter speed, unless told otherwise. I don't know - I have never shot with a D20 and I don't really care. For a start, like I said, you get to choose from a range in the P mode. And anyways, doing such DOF bumping is well within the realm that film a digital bodies could easily do. SignatureSander +++ Out of cheese error +++ > Well sports fans, the day has arrived! > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > much of the ambient light. Looks like I'll be using my off-camera shoe > cord with the 550EX. had trouble with my 550ex and jessops own off camera sync cord. Do canon do one of their own? had trouble with my 550ex and jessops own off camera sync cord. Do canon do one of their own? ==================== Yes. It is called "Off Camera Shoe Cord 2." http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html >http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html Amazing. Did you find it hard focussing (I think it's a MF lens, no?) SignatureKen Tough >>http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html > > Amazing. Did you find it hard focussing (I think it's a MF lens, no?) Yup--the little bugger wouldn't hold still, and dof is a mere hair's breadth, particularly shooting wide-open as I was to keep the shutter speeds high. I'm not sure autofocus would have helped, either. Thanks. SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com >>http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html > > Amazing. Did you find it hard focussing (I think it's a MF lens, no?) Do you know if using bellows exceeds the capabilities of the lens? Duncan. > >>http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html > > > > Amazing. Did you find it hard focussing (I think it's a MF lens, no?) > > Do you know if using bellows exceeds the capabilities of the lens? No, I don't--there are so many factors involved, from dof, wind, mirror lockup (or lack thereof in this case), diffraction at small apertures, to lens design, it's hard to say. As macro lenses are designed for close-up work, I can think of none better to use on a bellows--can you? SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com >> Do you know if using bellows exceeds the capabilities of the lens? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As macro lenses are designed for close-up work, I can think of none better > to use on a bellows--can you? For the ultimate in close-up at high quality, then no, but from my perspective (as I don't have a macro lens) I'd imagine the high resolution 50mm f1.7/1.4 would be good with bellows, particularly if worried about exceeding the limit of the lens. Duncan. >>> Do you know if using bellows exceeds the capabilities of the lens? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Duncan. Depends on whether it's necessary for the subject target to be x distance from the lens in order to hit its high resolution limits. If it can't approach those limits when focused on a subject an inch away, then it'll be of little help in that regard. On the other hand, it may be better than other available alternatives. SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com > Look for more Macro Madness from the Mighty MP-E coming soon! Have fun. Lighting will be hard without the macro flashes. Improvization includes strapping a couple regular flashes to the lens. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >> Look for more Macro Madness from the Mighty MP-E coming soon! > >Have fun. Lighting will be hard without the macro flashes. >Improvization includes strapping a couple regular flashes to the lens. Or using *gasp* natural lighting. RP© >>Have fun. Lighting will be hard without the macro flashes. >>Improvization includes strapping a couple regular flashes to the lens. > > Or using *gasp* natural lighting. Natural lighting with a 1:1 macro is not easy in some cases. With 5:1 it's going to be difficult in most cases. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>>Have fun. Lighting will be hard without the macro flashes. >>>Improvization includes strapping a couple regular flashes to the lens. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >With 5:1 it's going to be difficult in most cases. At 5:1, electromagnetic shutters, high speed flash and laser triggers are the ticket.... ......or not ;) A book titled _Close Up_ by John Brackenbury has some great examples of the technique described above. He also has a technique for panoramic macro landscapes which are awesome. He uses a 3mm video lens mounted on a bellows unit. Interposed between it and the camera is a reverse mounted standard 35mm lens which acts as a magnifier for the image projecting from the rear of the video lens giving almost unlimited DOF.... unreal stuff. Truly a bugs eye view. He also tried literally using the lens of a bugs eye for the projection medium. Quite a talented macro photographer and optic designer. RP© > At 5:1, electromagnetic shutters, high speed flash and laser triggers > are the ticket.... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > literally using the lens of a bugs eye for the projection medium. > Quite a talented macro photographer and optic designer. Sounds like he's totally insane. He must be on to something. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>>Have fun. Lighting will be hard without the macro flashes. >>>Improvization includes strapping a couple regular flashes to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > With 5:1 it's going to be difficult in most cases. That's right, you "lose" 6 full stops, and that's before closing down the aperture to something like f/16 or smaller for a tiny bit of depth off field (0.12mm). Bart A lot of red and green/blue color fringle on the edge on the letters? You think this would have happend with a Nikkor? :-) Max > Well sports fans, the day has arrived! > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Look for more Macro Madness from the Mighty MP-E coming soon! >The lens is capable of 5x magnification so it is almost a microscope. It goes > almost without saying that Nikon has nothing that can even compare to > this lens. So sad. Congratulations Bret, maybe now you'll have a chance at finding your dick. > Well sports fans, the day has arrived! > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Look for more Macro Madness from the Mighty MP-E coming soon! > >The lens is capable of 5x magnification so it is almost a microscope. It > goes >> almost without saying that Nikon has nothing that can even compare to >> this lens. So sad. Oh, I don't know about that.....Take a look here: http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=5&grp=22&productNr=90i > > >The lens is capable of 5x magnification so it is almost a microscope. It > > goes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oh, I don't know about that.....Take a look here: > http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=5&grp=22&productNr=90i I think my images clearly show that one can achieve beyond 5x with $150 worth of 30 year old Nikon equipment. http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html > I think my images clearly show that one can achieve beyond 5x with $150 > worth of 30 year old Nikon equipment. > http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html Yes, but it's akin to pissing on any Canon EOS system exalting idjit's parade. In that world if you shut your eyes hard enough you can render the 46 year old Nikon photographic system completely obsolete and without place. Of course such ancient technology is beyond Bret's grasp. SignatureThe good old days start now. The South African Bastard blurted out: >Yes, but it's akin to pissing on any Canon EOS system exalting idjit's >parade. In that world if you shut your eyes hard enough you can render >the 46 year old Nikon photographic system completely obsolete and without >place. >Of course such ancient technology is beyond Bret's grasp. ---------------------- Why anyone would still use that outdated old gear is beyond my grasp. > The South African Bastard blurted out: Ah, so you've resorted to regional deprecation now. Well then, please allow me to reciprocate, you backwater dwelling, redneck hillbilly! > Why anyone would still use that outdated old gear is beyond my grasp. I'm willing to bet that if we took away your EOS system, you wouldn't be able to take a picture at all. You would have no idea. Some photographer. SignatureBe careful what you wish for. > Why anyone would still use that outdated old gear is beyond my grasp. :I'm willing to bet that if we took away your EOS system, you wouldn't be :able to take a picture at all. You would have no idea. Well I probably wouldn't want to. EOS = FUN. Btw, I used a Minolta SRT-101 before I got the Fabulous EOS-1V. Kinda like riding a bike before driving a race car. You're still riding a skateboard. >> Why anyone would still use that outdated old gear is beyond my grasp. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Well I probably wouldn't want to. EOS = FUN. That may be true, but please tell me that you know how to write with a pen should your keyboard and computer come to an untimely demise. > Btw, I used a Minolta SRT-101 before I got the Fabulous EOS-1V. Do you have any photos from that era? Love to see them. > Kinda like riding a bike before driving a race car. No, not at all. More like learning how to write a program yourself before you go and buy software off the shelf. > You're still riding a skateboard. Let's see you do 360's with your EOS. BTW, your macro shot of the bedbug (or whatever that was) is very soft. SignatureBe careful what you wish for. > Btw, I used a Minolta SRT-101 before I got the Fabulous EOS-1V. :Do you have any photos from that era? Love to see them. =================== Here's one: http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/39193853 >> Btw, I used a Minolta SRT-101 before I got the Fabulous EOS-1V. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here's one: > http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/39193853 So, how did you feel the need to waste perfectly good money on a fully automated EOS system when a Minolta SRT-101 did what you needed it to do (take pictures of golf holes, dog crap and cheerleaders)? SignatureBe careful what you wish for. > Here's one: > http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/39193853 So, how did you feel the need to waste perfectly good money on a fully automated EOS system when a Minolta SRT-101 did what you needed it to do (take pictures of golf holes, dog crap and cheerleaders)? A bicycle does what I want it to. It gets me from one place to another. A car does it much better, however. Cheerleaders like to move around so the crude manual focusing of the SRT wasn't going to cut it. And no matter how fast I cocked the shutter after each pic I never could seem to get more than 2 fps. The 60's are over. >The 60's are over. Indeed they are and that makes the Leica III B and Elmar I just brought home all the more appealing :)) RP© - >I'm willing to bet that if we took away your EOS system, you wouldn't be >able to take a picture at all. I wouldn't be able to take this one, that's for sure! http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/42521845 Show me some Leica macros. LOL! But Matt - that would haldly be 150 dollars worth of Nikon equipment brand new. Signaturehttp://www.chapelhillnoir.com home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto The Improved Links Pages are at http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html > > > >The lens is capable of 5x magnification so it is almost a > microscope. It [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > worth of 30 year old Nikon equipment. > http://www.mattclara.com/misc/D70/D70_PB5_Bellows.html >Well sports fans, the day has arrived! >I have finally obtained the famous Canon > 65mm MP-E Macro lens that I have > been coveting for some time. Did you see vikings when you placed the order? > I plan to take lots of cool macro shots > with this beauty. There is a cool two page spread, fly portrait in Popular Photography Magazine, that was taken on a D30 and lit with a Sigma EF-500 Super flash. Cody, You will never possess what you are unwilling to pursue. http://community-2.webtv.net/AnOvercomer02/PhotographyLinks |
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