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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / March 2005

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Art in the Park: copyright protected?

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Matt Clara - 30 Mar 2005 01:10 GMT
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p15s01-usju.html?s=hns
If you have to sign up to view it, my apologies.

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Alan Browne - 30 Mar 2005 01:26 GMT
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p15s01-usju.html?s=hns
> If you have to sign up to view it, my apologies.

Quotes are from the article (fair use, doncha know!).
=====================================================

[ are my $0.02 ]

"The city has no plans to interfere with picture-taking tourists, say
Mr. Kleeman and Chicago Law Department spokesman Jennifer Hoyle. They
would be protected by the federal Copyright Act's "fair use" exemption."

[This tourist uses an 8x10 viewcamera on a massive tripod.  I vacation
with my assistants who chase people out of the way for my snaps.]

"But even in cases of commercial infringement, enforcing copyright
ordinarily involves suing those who sell violating products, not
preventing them from making copies."

[So, get a policy paper from the city and tell the security people to
read it (assumption here) and then bugger off.]

The issue of works of art that take up so much room in a public venue
and dominate landscapes will lead, I believe, to a finding that they are
public domain simply becasue they are unavoidable to the eye or lens.

Like a building shot from the street.

good article.  More stew for the pot.

Cheers,
Alan.
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That_Rich - 30 Mar 2005 03:03 GMT
>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p15s01-usju.html?s=hns
>If you have to sign up to view it, my apologies.

From the article...

"The city has no plans to interfere with picture-taking tourists, say
Mr. Kleeman and Chicago Law Department spokesman Jennifer Hoyle. They
would be protected by the federal Copyright Act's "fair use"
exemption"

Well they sure as hell ran me out of there mumbling something about
copyright protection. I posted about my experience at the *bean* about
a month ago. It is a cool sculpture, next time you're in Chicago take
some pictures but be prepared to get hassled.

RP©
Lionel - 30 Mar 2005 03:58 GMT
>Well they sure as hell ran me out of there mumbling something about
>copyright protection. I posted about my experience at the *bean* about
>a month ago. It is a cool sculpture, next time you're in Chicago take
>some pictures but be prepared to get hassled.

I'd call the cops on my mobile phone to report being assaulted by the
security guard.

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. | ,. w ,   "Some people are alive only because
 \|/  \|/     it is illegal to kill them."    Perna condita delenda est
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That_Rich - 30 Mar 2005 04:10 GMT
>>Well they sure as hell ran me out of there mumbling something about
>>copyright protection. I posted about my experience at the *bean* about
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I'd call the cops on my mobile phone to report being assaulted by the
>security guard.

It was the cops, Cook County Sheriff that was hassling me. Which in
itself didn't make any sense because it's a city park (Grant park),
not a county park. I don't think Chicago Police would lower themselves
to that sort of harassment, thay have bigger fish to fry.

Speaking of fish... the talapia was awesome tonight!

RP©
McLeod - 30 Mar 2005 05:20 GMT
>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p15s01-usju.html?s=hns
>If you have to sign up to view it, my apologies.

I guess the issue depends on whether you have ever created any work of
art you felt compelled to defend.

Copyright, in the US, gives every artist the right to produce copies
or representations of their own work.

Just because I'm an artist and I display my work does that give
another visual artist (a photographer) the right to sell
representations of what I have created?

If that were the case than I could walk into the Chateau Laurier, in
Ottawa, Canada, (for those not familiar) where Yousef Karsh had his
studio and has on display in the lobby some beautiful portraits of
Einstein and Winston Churchill and rephotograph them and sell them.

Tourists can photograph the lobby of the hotel, they can photograph
the prints, but you can bet the hammer would come down the instant
they tried to sell images of the lobby or the pictures. Which is why
the cops in Chicago take great pains to point out that pros (people
who sell their images) shouldn't be photographing the "Bean".

I do agree that prior restraint isn't the best way to enforce
copyright and that isn't the job of the police, but we are talking
about rentacops.
Robert Brace - 30 Mar 2005 06:09 GMT
>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p15s01-usju.html?s=hns
>>If you have to sign up to view it, my apologies.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> copyright and that isn't the job of the police, but we are talking
> about rentacops.

And I assume you (or the "rent-a-cops") have some as yet unnamed method of
determining, while I am taking a photograph or even prior, that I am a
"professional" who is taking that shot for profit.  Of course they could
determine that by the "pedigree" of the equipment I am using as it is a well
known fact that all photos from "professional" equipment are immediately
destined for sale.
What total, unadulterated bullshit.
I guess I should count myself lucky that I didn't get arrested the day I
photographed the Louis Riel statue on the SK Legislature grounds.  That was
over 25 years ago.  I wonder if "they" are still waiting for the sale  --  
but then maybe the RB-67 doesn't count as "professional" enough!!!
Best regards,
Bob
ian lincoln - 30 Mar 2005 12:09 GMT
>>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p15s01-usju.html?s=hns
>>>If you have to sign up to view it, my apologies.
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Best regards,
> Bob

If the work of art is in a public place that has no entry fee then you can
do what you like.  Its one thing to cry 'no fair' if someone walks into a
gallery where there are signs saying so 'photos' etc.  However if you carry
your art work of whatever description out into the middle of a public
thorough fair and leave it there then you got no right to moan if someone
stops to admire it without paying a fee, photographs it or whatever.
McLeod - 30 Mar 2005 14:19 GMT
>If the work of art is in a public place that has no entry fee then you can
>do what you like.  Its one thing to cry 'no fair' if someone walks into a
>gallery where there are signs saying so 'photos' etc.  However if you carry
>your art work of whatever description out into the middle of a public
>thorough fair and leave it there then you got no right to moan if someone
>stops to admire it without paying a fee, photographs it or whatever.

So all artwork, in order to protect it's copyright, must be housed in
galleries?
ian lincoln - 30 Mar 2005 14:28 GMT
>>If the work of art is in a public place that has no entry fee then you can
>>do what you like.  Its one thing to cry 'no fair' if someone walks into a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> So all artwork, in order to protect it's copyright, must be housed in
> galleries?

yup
David Littlewood - 30 Mar 2005 15:55 GMT
>>If the work of art is in a public place that has no entry fee then you can
>>do what you like.  Its one thing to cry 'no fair' if someone walks into a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>So all artwork, in order to protect it's copyright, must be housed in
>galleries?

In the UK, taking (and selling) pictures of artistic creations on
display in a public place is specifically exempted from copyright. What
you cannot do, of course, is to produce a copy of the object itself and
pass it off as an original work.

David
Signature

David Littlewood

McLeod - 30 Mar 2005 14:22 GMT
>And I assume you (or the "rent-a-cops") have some as yet unnamed method of
>determining, while I am taking a photograph or even prior, that I am a
>"professional" who is taking that shot for profit

Excuse me?  I said I didn't agree with prior restraint.  Check your
comprehension. I wasn't defending the policy of the city, only an
artist's right to copyright.
Robert Brace - 30 Mar 2005 19:49 GMT
>>And I assume you (or the "rent-a-cops") have some as yet unnamed method of
>>determining, while I am taking a photograph or even prior, that I am a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> comprehension. I wasn't defending the policy of the city, only an
> artist's right to copyright.

My comprehension is working well, thank you for your concern.  To quote your
relative comment:  "I do agree that prior restraint isn't the best way to
enforce copyright...." still seems to show faint support and is somewhat
equivocal.
Now you say:  "I didn't agree with prior restraint"  and that I interpret as
appropriately unequivocal.  It appears I've helped you to solidify your
position on prior restraint.  I'm glad I could help ;-)
By the way, I totally agree with the artist's right to copyright, just don't
expect it to be respected in a public access space.
Bob
McLeod - 30 Mar 2005 20:50 GMT
>My comprehension is working well, thank you for your concern.  To quote your
>relative comment:  "I do agree that prior restraint isn't the best way to
>enforce copyright...." still seems to show faint support and is somewhat
>equivocal.

Would you like me to break down the sentence structure for you?

I agree with an artist's right to copyright.  I don't agree with
prior restraint.

You strawman will not stand.  You indicated in your post that "you (or
the rentacops)" would prevent you from taking your image. I couldn't
care less what you do in the middle of Saskatchewan...unless it's to
copy and sell something that another artist has created.
Robert Brace - 30 Mar 2005 21:55 GMT
>>My comprehension is working well, thank you for your concern.  To quote
>>your
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> care less what you do in the middle of Saskatchewan...unless it's to
> copy and sell something that another artist has created.

There you go being equivocal again.
Tsk....Tsk....Tsk
Bob Hickey - 30 Mar 2005 13:13 GMT
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0330/p15s01-usju.html?s=hns
> If you have to sign up to view it, my apologies.

> Regards,
> Matt Clara
> www.mattclara.com

No alcoholic beverages                                                 No
dogs
No ball-playing
No shooting the bean
City of Chicago
There goes the tourist trade                             Bob Hickey
 
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