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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / March 2005

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Buying Manual Camera

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Pat OBrien - 27 Mar 2005 10:27 GMT
Okay, here’s the dilemma.  I’ve elected to get re-interested in photography
after a 10-year hiatus.  At that time I had a Nikon FM2n that I dearly
loved, but was having difficulty focusing, so I tried out a Nikon 6006
which only accelerated my nervous breakdown.

My eye problems are controllable now, and I’m thinking about signing up for
an intro to photography class at the local school.  I am not a Luddite by
nature, and a psychedelic fog masks the good ol’ days, but I’d prefer to
buy another manual camera.  I can’t spend the money for another Nikon
outfit, and I’d prefer to buy new, but I don’t have clue where to begin.

Does anybody have any suggestions?

Pat O’Brien
Malcolm Stewart - 27 Mar 2005 10:56 GMT
> Okay, here?s the dilemma.  I?ve elected to get re-interested in
photography
> after a 10-year hiatus.  At that time I had a Nikon FM2n that I dearly
> loved, but was having difficulty focusing, so I tried out a Nikon 6006
> which only accelerated my nervous breakdown.
> My eye problems are controllable now, and I?m thinking about signing up
for
> an intro to photography class at the local school.  I am not a Luddite by
> nature, and a psychedelic fog masks the good ol? days, but I?d prefer to
> buy another manual camera.  I can?t spend the money for another Nikon
> outfit, and I?d prefer to buy new, but I don?t have clue where to begin.

Just a thought....
Did you invest in eyesight correction lenses when you were having difficulty
focusing?  My eyes are astigmatic, and so I wear spectacles all the time,
and I find they make an enormous difference.  I'm now in my mid 60s so my
accommodation is vanishingly small, and I find that the Nikon "O" corrector
does the trick for me.
(Some modern cameras now have variable dioptre correction built in.)
Signature

M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Pat OBrien - 28 Mar 2005 13:25 GMT
Yes, I wear glasses all the time then and now due to stigmatism.  My
problem is that I have a slight borderline diabetic problem that was
undetected for many years, because of a medicine’s side effect.  I've
dropped the meds and the blood sugar is stabilized, thus my eyesight is now
consistent.  Before my prescription changed hourly and I lost much of my
depth perception.

Thanks for bringing that up I haven’t stopped to realize how fortunate I am.

Pat O’Brien
McLeod - 28 Mar 2005 13:31 GMT
>Yes, I wear glasses all the time then and now due to stigmatism.

geez, Easter must be a bitch for you.  Have you talked to a priest?
ian lincoln - 27 Mar 2005 12:48 GMT
> Okay, here?s the dilemma.  I?ve elected to get re-interested in
> photography
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Does anybody have any suggestions?

as far as the good old days the cameas of that era were built to last.
Unfortunately most are 20+ years old.  This means even these cameras are
pushing it and parts are scarce.  At this age rubber seals and foam bits are
dying, breaking down, turning to sticky goo or going hard.  Mirrors tend to
stick in the up position, shutters require calibrating, lens apertures won't
fully open and the odd voltage batteries for the meters are no longer made.
On the other hand new cameras of today of the manual type are either the
super cheap stuff like the centon K400 or still semi professional quality
machines that are expensive.  I think the only quality mechanical camera is
the nikon fm3a.  ?439 at jessops, although i'm doing this from memory.  I
would suggest getting a quality nikon at least an F80 and use the rather
impressive manual override.  Today you get ttl metering for the flash,
multipatterned metering etc.  All you have to do is turn off the af.  Very
few have decent focusing screens but you can customise.  Either that or it
is only manual nikon i mentioned earlier.

Personally Af technology has come on a long way, you don't get the hunting
that you used to deal with and it is a hell of a lot faster, pretty much
instant compared to the slow whirring of the earliest offerings.
Scott Schuckert - 27 Mar 2005 14:37 GMT
> Personally Af technology has come on a long way, you don't get the hunting
> that you used to deal with and it is a hell of a lot faster, pretty much
> instant compared to the slow whirring of the earliest offerings.

Agreed. if your sole experience with AF was a 6006, you should
re-evaluate the technology.
Buzz Chandler - 27 Mar 2005 15:48 GMT
> Okay, here?s the dilemma.  I?ve elected to get re-interested in
> photography
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Does anybody have any suggestions?

You can get manual Nikon outfits dirt cheap today. Check out ebay...I think
you'll be shocked what F3's are going for today.
professorpaul - 27 Mar 2005 19:14 GMT
I go through this issue about every 10 years, in and out of the hobby.
Last time around, I got a Pentax ZX-M, which can be run fully manual,
and in-between. My grandson just got a Vivitar which is even more
manual (mechanical shutter - battery only for meter). Both take the "K"
mount lenses, so we can share equipment now and then, if we wish.
JC - 27 Mar 2005 19:33 GMT
>Okay, here?s the dilemma.  I?ve elected to get re-interested in photography
>after a 10-year hiatus.  At that time I had a Nikon FM2n that I dearly
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Pat O?Brien

I have a manual SLR camera available on ebay that may interest you,

Yashica Pentamatic F1.8, 55mm, zoom & wide angle lenses

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48550&item=7503518418&rd=
1&ssPageName=WDVW

Pat OBrien - 28 Mar 2005 17:57 GMT
This is a general reply to y'll.
I actually took everyone’s advice and went to eBay.  I'd never been there
for a camera before.  I had a great time and actually put in a couple of
bids.  I thought I'd try some different cameras, if I can get them
reasonable.  

Let's see...  Oh, yeah...

Pentax Super Me;
Minolta SRT 101 and 202;
Yashica TL Super; and
Yashica Pentamatic F1.8; 55mm, zoom & wide angle lenses.

I was sorely tempted to mess with the Nikon FM or FE family, but I’d
thought I’d try something new, and besides everything I bid on is less than
a Nikon camera.

I also looked at the Pentax XM and the Vivitar cameras, which is still an
option.

Thanks to you all for getting me jump-started.

Pat O’Brien
Jeremy - 28 Mar 2005 20:32 GMT
> This is a general reply to y'll.
> I actually took everyone?s advice and went to eBay.  I'd never been there
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I was sorely tempted to mess with the Nikon FM or FE family, but I?d
> thought I?d try something new, and besides everything I bid on is less
than
> a Nikon camera.
>
> I also looked at the Pentax XM and the Vivitar cameras, which is still an
> option.
>
> Thanks to you all for getting me jump-started.

It is difficult to give advice to someone else--especially when I do not
know what his exact requirements are--but you would do well to give the
subject of lens quality a higher weight in your decision.  It is the LENS
that must transform the light from a 3-dimensional scene into a
two-dimensional image focused onto the film plane.  Some manufacturers have
a reputation for contrasty, well-saturated colors and sharp optics that is
better than other manufacturers.

Also, most manual cameras sold in the 70s had pretty much the same feature
set.  There were two brands that I would recommend especially--Nikon and
Pentax--be because they have tons of lenses available used on eBay, and some
of those lenses were true classics.

That having been said, I am particularly impressed with Pentax and their
screw-mount lenses, because of their excellent color saturation, sharpness,
and rendition of out-of-focus objects (what the Japanese call "Bokeh.").
Back in the 70s, it was Pentax and Carl Zeiss that were competing
head-to-head in terms of lens quality.  And many of those classic Pentax
designs can now be had dirt cheap.

If you do decide to try Pentax, go for the Super-Multi-Coated (sometimes
abbreviated "SMC") lenses, rather than the plain Takumars or Super-Takumars.
The multi-coated lenses cost virtually the same on the used market, and they
have the advantage of less flare and more saturated color rendition.  They
are plentiful.  If you buy them, by all means get a Spotmatic-F camera body
(not the older Spotmatic or the Spotmatic-II) because the SMC lenses were
made to couple with the Spotmatic-F for wide-open aperture metering.  The
Spotmatic-F may cost a couple of bucks more, but the price differential is
so small that it makes little sense to buy an older model that does not have
wide open metering, even though the SMC lenses CAN be mounted on older
models.

If you decide to get a newer camera body, that uses the K-mount, Pentax
makes an adapter that will let you continue to mount your lenses on the
newer bodies (they can be used in stop-down mode only).  This is an
important feature, because it means that your lenses will not be obsolete if
you later upgrade to the newer mount.

Contrast that with Canon, for example.  When Canon went from their breech
mount to the EOS mount, they orphaned all of their older lenses.  Canon
customers that wanted to upgrade bodies had to buy all new lenses to match.
Those that were heavily invested in breech mount lenses were orphaned.  And
if they wanted to add to their lens collections they had to decide whether
to keep buying the older-type lenses (on the used market) or start all over
again with the EOS-mount.

To professionals, it was probably no big deal.  But to amateurs, who
typically bought their lenses over time as finances allowed, it represented
a financial blow.

Nikon has pretty much retained the ability to continue using older lenses on
their newer cameras.  There are some exceptions (as there are with Pentax),
but in the main, the lenses remain compatible.  This may be important to you
if you intend to buy several lenses.  If you are going to use only one or
two lenses, it might be irrelevant.  You would know best.

Have a look at the following link for more information and examples of what
I mean.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-02-11-24.shtml
Mr.Bolshoy Huy - 27 Mar 2005 21:16 GMT
Ye, check out the vivitars or phoenix on ebay
or pentaz zx-m.
Duncan J Murray - 29 Mar 2005 15:56 GMT
If you're going to go for Pentax, I recommend these models:

*Pentax MX - fully manual, built like a tank, small.
Pentax KX - built like a tank, but unfortunately as large as a tank, too.
*Pentax Super-A - Has TTL flash, 6 exposure modes, doesn't suffer from any
known problems 20 years on.  Reliable and not badly made.
Pentax Me-Super - good, small, but at this age, the electronics are starting
to go...
Pentax LX - the best of pentax MF, but is currently suffering from
sticky-mirror syndrome - so check the camera over before buying
Pentax MZ-M/ZX-M - not bad.  TTL flash, and full compatibility, steel lens
mount.  But I remember there was something about the metering system that I
didn't like.

All of these have depth of field preview, except ME-super.
* - especially recommended.

All the best,
Duncan.

> Okay, here?s the dilemma.  I?ve elected to get re-interested in
> photography
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Pat O?Brien
Malcolm Stewart - 29 Mar 2005 23:04 GMT
> If you're going to go for Pentax, I recommend these models:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> All the best,
> Duncan.

The MZ-M which I have in front of me does not have a steel lens mount.  It's
a form of black ribbed plastic.  The MZ-M has a penta-mirror viewing system,
and appears somewhat small compared to some of my other cameras.  Can be
difficult to see the shutter read-out in the v/f.
On the MZ-M, I understand that metering is centre weighted with SMC Pentax-M
series lens attached. With the later SMC Pentx -A series, it's a form of 2
segment  (upper and lower areas)  type of "evaluative". (Apologies to Canon)
Program Mode is possible with "A" series lenses, but not with "M" series.

My ME-Super has exposure compensation in full stops, whereas the MZ-M has
1/2 stop steps - much better for slide film.

Signature

M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Pat OBrien - 30 Mar 2005 14:36 GMT
I’ve been seriously studying up on all the early Pentax, and as per
suggestion, the Spotmatic F looks good.  I just won a ME Super, a Yashica
TL-Super, and a Minolta 201.  

My plan is to get the various cameras and play around with them to see what
I like.  I’ve been having a lot of fun checking on resources.  I may start
a museum.  

Well, now that you mention it, that little MX looks good, but what about
the Minolta XE-7 or the MD-5.  Then again, I still hear the FM2 calling my
name.

I hadn’t realized it, but I seem to be boycotting the Canon disjointed
line, although I remember a certain pleasure using a Canon Ftb (?).

I can’t believe that I’ve been looking at those new Voightlanders with a
lustful gleam.

I always assumed that I needed to maintain brand loyalty, but I can see
walking around with half a dozen different cameras, each with a different
lense.  That would be much more convenient than a 15-500 zoom.
Malcolm Stewart - 30 Mar 2005 18:05 GMT
> I always assumed that I needed to maintain brand loyalty, but I can see
> walking around with half a dozen different cameras, each with a different
> lens.  That would be much more convenient than a 15-500 zoom.

I think it depends on how old you are <g>.
I went out a short time ago with a lightweight Pentax MZ-M plus small kit,
and a Nikon F3 and its standard lens.  I soon realised that I wasn't as
young as I used to be when carrying two Minolta X-700s and a bag full of
lenses was my norm.  (Gave myself a damaged left shoulder which has taken
years to repair.)

It's good fun if you don't weaken!

Signature

M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

jones144 - 30 Mar 2005 18:16 GMT
>I?ve been seriously studying up on all the early Pentax, and as per
>suggestion, the Spotmatic F looks good.  I just won a ME Super, a Yashica
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>walking around with half a dozen different cameras, each with a different
>lense.  That would be much more convenient than a 15-500 zoom.

Just stay away from the water with that much weight around your neck!
Caveat Lector - 30 Mar 2005 18:41 GMT
Someone wrote
>>I?ve been seriously studying up on all the early Pentax, and as per
>>suggestion, the Spotmatic F looks good.  I just won a ME Super, a Yashica
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>walking around with half a dozen different cameras, each with a different
>>lense.  That would be much more convenient than a 15-500 zoom.

I attended a photography class a while back and there were about 15 people
enrolled with the latest 35MM SLR's

Our instructor showed us her prize photos and they were stunning -- all
taken with a Argus C3

So the lessons we learned from her was -- it ain't the camera and film so
much as it is the photographer expertise. She taught us how to compose,
texture, color, depth of field, etc.

Most all of the cameras you mentioned will do fine.

But to really make that oh ah o my goodness picture

See Joy of photography by Kodak and more joy of photography also.

CL a Pentax ME SUPER user.

Signature

CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be !

Pat OBrien - 30 Mar 2005 22:57 GMT
I think one of my earlier problems is that I try to compensate for my sense
of incompetency by buying status equipment.

I want to take a class with a teacher that has an Argus C3.

I’m glad that the topic has shifted some focus from the camera to the
person that holds the camera.

Saying that, I have to admit that I recently saw some great b&w prints
taken with Pentax primes, and they spoke to me.

For me this whole camera business started when I bought a digital camera.
That’s fine, I took it to small birthday party, last night, and took some
great snapshots.  I can even print up a bunch pictures without too much
hassle.  

But, now I want to get back to B&W film, and I heard someone say that you
can’t beat the earlier lenses for b&W, and the later lenses do color better.

I’m still going to strap all the cameras around my neck and get a snapshot
with my handy dandy digital snapshot taker.
Bandicoot - 31 Mar 2005 03:34 GMT
[SNIP]
> I attended a photography class a while back and there were about 15 people
> enrolled with the latest 35MM SLR's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> much as it is the photographer expertise. She taught us how to compose,
> texture, color, depth of field, etc.

I tend to start my intro. classes like that too - leave some big
'impressive' camera on the desk in front of me, show a few pictures taken
the day before in whatever locale we are working in, then produce the pocket
P&S camera that I took them on.  It helps make the point that the best
camera for any shot is the one you happen to be carrying at the time, and
the most important tools are your eyes and brain.

Mostly I just do it to calm those who think that only spending money will
ever get them to where they want to be!

Peter
Jeremy - 31 Mar 2005 20:54 GMT
> So the lessons we learned from her was -- it ain't the camera and film so
> much as it is the photographer expertise. She taught us how to compose,
> texture, color, depth of field, etc.

Agree 100%.

Look at most any photo hanging in a gallery, and most people will not think
of asking what camera or lens shot it.

But, it is possible to pick up some really superb lenses on the used market.
All things being equal, I would prefer to select a better lens if at all
possible.  They don't cost any more than the other stuff, once they get to
be 20 or more years old.

After acquiring 15 prime lenses, I find that 85% of my shooting is done with
my lowly 55mm f/1.8 normal lens!  It's optical performance and freedom from
distortion are incredible.  Plus, I shoot cityscapes, and I do not want the
lens to impose any graphical control over perspective.  My goal is to make
the scene look as close as possible to the way it actually appeared to the
eye.

Those lowly normal lenses--the ones we all got mounted on our new cameras in
the 70s--are perfect for that kind of work.  Too bad that many of today's
camera buyers don't get them.  And they are dirt-cheap on the used market.
Bob Hickey - 31 Mar 2005 16:51 GMT
> I?ve been seriously studying up on all the early Pentax, and as per
> suggestion, the Spotmatic F looks good.  I just won a ME Super, a Yashica
> TL-Super, and a Minolta 201.
> Message posted via http://www.photokb.com              After about 30
years of countless pieces, often coming and going at a fierce rate, I've
never done better than a Pentax Spot or a Rollei. Crispy.
Bob Hickey
Jeremy - 31 Mar 2005 20:47 GMT
> My plan is to get the various cameras and play around with them to see what
> I like.  I?ve been having a lot of fun checking on resources.  I may start
> a museum.

If money is a factor, you really should build a system of like lens
mounts--otherwise you will probably accumulate a lot of incompatible stuff.

I stayed with Pentax screw mount system because that is what I started with,
and after accumulating 5 bodies and 15 prime lenses, it is impractical to
chuck it for something else.

If I were to do it today, I'd go with the K-mount lenses.

I did just pick up a P3n body and two zoom lenses (Takumar-A) just to play
with.  The camera is very interesting in that it can be used fully manually
or with program mode or aperture-priority mode (Like my Pentax ES bodies).
Unlike the screwmount bodies, the automation options are seamless.  When I
use my ES in manual mode, for example, the meter turns off and I have to
hand meter.  Also it has only a few manual speeds, as opposed to the P3n's
full compliment of manual speeds.

If, on the other hand, you are a "manual kind of guy," by all means get a
Spotmatic and a few SMC Takumar lenses.  For landscapes and other static
subjects, they are absolutely wonderful.  The optics are top-shelf, too.

If you are more oriented toward shooting action, you may find exposure
automation to be desirable--just remember that older cameras didn't have
that feature and we somehow got along without it for decades.

Still, if you are just starting out, it might be well to give some thought
to just what kind of images you intend to take.  You do have options
available that I did not have in the early 70s.
 
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