Hi all
I have a Canon EOS 300v (Rebel ti) and want to experiment with macro. I have
read opinions and reviews and have probably concluded which lens would suit
what I want, but have still a couple of questions.
I've seen people mentioning sizes like 1:4, 1:2, 1:1 (is that the maximum??)
regarding macro lenses for macro photography. What are these sizes and how
do they affect my pictures ? I understand they have to do with size but am
not sure exactly what's the connection. I want to try to shoot
nationalgeographic-ish :-) pictures of mostly insects, and would like to
have the subject cover almost most of the final print, which I can not do
(as I initially thought I would) with my old FD 70-210/4 Macro.
Now for my EOS I have almost decided on the Canon 100/2.8 Macro, but will
this one actually give me what I want ? (what is the minimum focusing
distance for this lens by the way ?)
I'll appreciate any advice.
Thanks
Kostas
Joseph Meehan - 27 Sep 2004 20:50 GMT
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I'll appreciate any advice.
A true macro will do 1:1 That is it will focus close enough that the
subject that it will include is exactly the same size as the 35 mm
negative-slide. The image on the film is the same size as the original
subject.
Many lenses call them selves macro but can only do 1:4 (subject is four
times larger than a 35 mm negative) or 1:2 (subject twice as large as a 35
mm negative. I would guess your zoom fit into that class.
Unless you need something less than about 1.5" x 1" 1:1 will be fine.
1:4 will do for a subject about 6"x4"
Focusing distance can be figured, but it usually is not an issue. It is
also a problem since the distance is so small you have to figure where on
the camera/lens you are measuring. I seem to recall it is stated as the
distance from the optical center of the lens, which can be in front of the
lens.
A longer focal length lens will be further away from the subject for
the same reproduction size. Further is usually better so that 100 mm lens
should be good.
If that lens does 1:1 you should be fine. It also is likely to give
you better results. True macro lenses are designed to focus close and do a
very good job, other lenses designed for general use are optimized for
distance work and don't do as well close up. (actually it is a little more
complex than that, but it is not all that important at this time.)
> Thanks
> Kostas

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Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
Alan Browne - 27 Sep 2004 21:18 GMT
> Focusing distance can be figured, but it usually is not an issue. It is
> also a problem since the distance is so small you have to figure where on
> the camera/lens you are measuring. I seem to recall it is stated as the
> distance from the optical center of the lens, which can be in front of the
> lens.
The focus distance is usually given from the film plane. Sigma's webpage, for
instance:
" • Minimum focusing distances are the distances from the film plane to the
subject."
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/html/lenschart.htm
Cheers,
Alan.

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Drew Saunders - 27 Sep 2004 21:59 GMT
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> do they affect my pictures ? I understand they have to do with size but am
> not sure exactly what's the connection.
Macro is one of the most confusing things about photography for many
people. Most folks are used to prints and think in reference to their
prints, which is where the confusion lies. Anything can be made "life
size" in a print by enlarging it enough (it may be an unrecognizable
blob, but it will be a life size blob) but in macro lenses, "life size"
means something else. With respect to magnification ratios (1:4, 1:2,
1:1, and yes you can get 2:1 or more with the right lens) the ratio is
the relationship of the object to the size of that object ON THE PIECE
OF FILM. So, for your 24x36mm piece of film, a 20x20mm square object,
when photographed at 1:4, will take up a 5x5mm square on the piece of
film. At 1:2 it will be a 10x10mm square. At 1:1 it will be a 20x20mm
square and you should be able to hold the piece of film up next to the
object and they'll be the same size, therefore "life sized."
Sometimes the manufacturer gives the magnification ratio as a percentage
or fraction, i.e. your 70-210 does .23x magnification (according to
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/f_lens.html) so the
20x20mm square is 4.6x4.6mm, or just shy of 1:4, which is not bad for an
older zoom, but not in the range of a good dedicated macro lens.
>I want to try to shoot
> nationalgeographic-ish :-) pictures of mostly insects, and would like to
> have the subject cover almost most of the final print, which I can not do
> (as I initially thought I would) with my old FD 70-210/4 Macro.
How big is the insect? If it's 36mm or shorter in the long dimension,
you'll definitely want a real macro lens that can go to 1:1. For really
large insects, you don't need 1:1, but you might as well get it since so
much of your intended subject will be needing 1:1 to 1:4 or so.
> Now for my EOS I have almost decided on the Canon 100/2.8 Macro, but will
> this one actually give me what I want ? (what is the minimum focusing
> distance for this lens by the way ?)
Canon says 0.31m, from the same web site as I mentioned above. That lens
does 1:1, so it should be good for what you want. If you want greater
than 1:1 magnification, you'll probably need a bellows and/or extension
tubes.
If you want to get really serious about macro, in addition to a good
tripod, you may want a macro sliding rail which lets you do very fine
controls of the cameras position. Velbon makes one that generally goes
for about $100 that I have and it works very well. Here's B&H's link:
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&
Q=&sku=193311&is=REG>
Really Right Stuff makes on for use with Arca-style quick releases.
<http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/specialty/index.html>
Drew

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Drew W. Saunders
dru (at) stanford (dot) eee dee you
Bandicoot - 28 Sep 2004 13:58 GMT
[SNIP]
> Really Right Stuff makes on for use with Arca-style quick releases.
> <http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/specialty/index.html>
I have the RRS one, and can recommend that too.
Peter
Kostas Melissaris - 29 Sep 2004 20:01 GMT
> > Now for my EOS I have almost decided on the Canon 100/2.8 Macro, but will
> > this one actually give me what I want ? (what is the minimum focusing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> than 1:1 magnification, you'll probably need a bellows and/or extension
> tubes.
Well this is where I get a bit confused with the minimum focusing distance:
my canon a300 which has a lens equivalent of a 35mm or so offers a 'macro'
(or let's just say close-up) mode which allows shooting from 7cm away from
the lens (see http://www.pbase.com/melissakos/image/33349452 ). Seeing this
I thought that the smaller the minimum focusing distance, the bigger the
magnification factor. So now seeing the 0.31m for the 100/2.8 macro I cannot
say it has become clearer in my mind... Anyone care to help ?
Thanks for the other useful info.
Kostas
Alan Browne - 29 Sep 2004 21:39 GMT
> "Drew Saunders" <dru@nospamme-stanford.edu> wrote in message
>>Canon says 0.31m, from the same web site as I mentioned above. That lens
>>does 1:1, so it should be good for what you want. If you want greater
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> magnification factor. So now seeing the 0.31m for the 100/2.8 macro I cannot
> say it has become clearer in my mind... Anyone care to help ?
Usually the min focus dist. is stated from the film plane. There is often a
marker on the camera body indicating where the film plane is (a circle with a
bar through it). With a 1:1 macro at closest focus, the lens barrel gets pretty
long. 31 cm from the film plane includes most of the body and the lens plus a
little from the front of the lens to the subject.
Cheers,
Alan

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Drew Saunders - 29 Sep 2004 23:28 GMT
> > > Now for my EOS I have almost decided on the Canon 100/2.8 Macro, but
> will
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Thanks for the other useful info.
> Kostas
Because that's not a 35mm focal length lens, but a 5mm lens which offers
the same approximate angle of view over its little sensor as a 35mm lens
does over a 24x36mm piece of film. A 5mm lens focuses to 7cm pretty
easily, much more easily than a 100mm lens. Does your brain hurt yet? If
not, try view cameras, where you really need to know all this stuff.
Drew

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Drew W. Saunders
dru (at) stanford (dot) eee dee you
Ray Creveling - 28 Sep 2004 00:51 GMT
Other have explained reproduction ratios very well so I won't get into that.
I found the best way for me to get into macro was by starting with extension
tubes. Extension tubes are devices that move a lens further from the film
plane allowing for closer focus.
A set of three tubes for the 300 will run about $130 from B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=7
1515&is=REG
I linked to the Kenko set because they are significantly cheaper than the
Canon tubes and work great. Because tube have no glass you don't have to
worry about additional optics messing up your images. I would also consider
purchasing the 50mm F1.8 from B&H as well. The lens is less than $100 and
used with the extension tubes will give magnification from appox 1:4 to
1.3:1 for about the same price as the Canon 50mm Macro. the additional
advantage of extension tubes is that they can be used on all of your lenses
I often use the 12mm on my 28-70 F2.8 .
As others have recommended a sturdy tripod is a must. You could add a Very
good Bogen/Manfrotto Head/Leg combo to the above list and still be less than
the cost of the 100mm macro. This would give you a great opportunity to
experiment with macro and have versatile equipment that can be used for any
other type of photography as well.
The only really specialized piece of equipment I own that I find invaluable
is a macro focusing rail. I have the Bogen/Manfotto 3419 and it has served
me very well.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=1
62665&is=REG

Signature
Ray Creveling
http://www.blackcatblog.com
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Thanks
> Kostas
Kostas Melissaris - 29 Sep 2004 20:01 GMT
> Other have explained reproduction ratios very well so I won't get into that.
> I found the best way for me to get into macro was by starting with extension
> tubes. Extension tubes are devices that move a lens further from the film
> plane allowing for closer focus.
>
> A set of three tubes for the 300 will run about $130 from B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=7
1515&is=REG
Thanks! I didn't know about these options. Comments from others here in the
past have suggested that the best quality solution would be a dedicated
macro lens. Extension tubes would be indeed in my budget much more than the
lens I have in mind, but while I have heard lots of good comments for the
lens, I have no clue or samples for the tubes. Plus I lose the simplicity of
the 100. Maybe I should reconsider though, if only I could test them, 150
for the tubes is much better than 550 for the lens... The rest however
(focusing rail, ring flash) are for much later...
Kostas
Ray Creveling - 29 Sep 2004 21:43 GMT
Extension tubes are hollow and do not affect the optical quality of your
lens that you are shooting with. If you are shooting with a sharp lens the
picture will be sharp. While you do loose some convenience with tubes you
gain the ability to put them on all the lenses you own to allow closer
focusing. Most macro books including the most recommended one John Shaw's
Close-ups in Nature show pictures taken with all of the different equipment
including tubes. I would strongly recommend a focusing rail. Your Depth of
field with macro equipment is in Millimeters or less. the rail allows you to
make very fine adjustments.
Ray Creveling
http://www.blackcatblog.com
>> Other have explained reproduction ratios very well so I won't get into
> that.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Kostas
Steve Marshall - 28 Sep 2004 12:37 GMT
I won't add to the technical detail from all other respondents, but just
want to assure you that the Canon 100/2.8 macro
is a great lens. Because it can focus all the way from a few inches to
infinity, it is useful for anything suited to the 100mm
focal length - like portraits, for instance
Good luck

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> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Thanks
> Kostas
Bandicoot - 28 Sep 2004 14:11 GMT
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> this one actually give me what I want ? (what is the minimum focusing
> distance for this lens by the way ?)
A 1:1 magnification will give you pretty big insect pictures - 2:1 fills the
frame with many insects and 4:1 is 'head and shoulders portrait' sized. So
don't get hung up on needing massive magnification.
Also don't get hung up on a macro lens. Yes it is the most convenient way
to get to 1:1, and will be optimised for its close focus performance. It
will also have a flatter field than most lenses - but that matters to a
stamp collecter photographing his - flat - treasures a lot more than it does
to you photographing insects. I'm not saying don't get a macro lens if it
is in your budget, just that you will also need a good tripod and probably a
focusing rail, and it would be a lot better to get these and a cheaper lens,
than get the macro and have nothing left over for the other essentials.
A 50mm lens reversed on a 200mm will give you very good results for insects,
and with a bit more working distance than the 100mm gives you. Extension
tubes or a bellows are other options, and you could get a supplementary
close-up lens (sometimes foolishly described as a 'close-up filter', which
obviously it isn't) to experiment with. The supplementary lens can give
quite good results - especially the two element ones - and is a very good
lower cost way to see how you like the world of macro. If you later get a
dedicated macro lens you can sell the supplementary, or keep it as a handy
lightweight way of getting macro results when you are 'travelling light' and
don't have that macro lens with you.
There are lots of good books on all this stuff - you'll probably find John
Shaw's introductory one in the library.
Peter
Kostas Melissaris - 29 Sep 2004 20:01 GMT
> to you photographing insects. I'm not saying don't get a macro lens if it
> is in your budget, just that you will also need a good tripod and probably a
> focusing rail, and it would be a lot better to get these and a cheaper lens,
> than get the macro and have nothing left over for the other essentials.
Really ? I would think it's the other way round. In any case I think the
rail is more of a convenience than a necessity and I have a philips tripod
which is not all bad.
This macro lens is not really in my budget but I thought that it would be
the first step to take..
> A 50mm lens reversed on a 200mm will give you very good results for insects,
> and with a bit more working distance than the 100mm gives you. Extension
You lost me here. What do you mean reversed ?
> There are lots of good books on all this stuff - you'll probably find John
> Shaw's introductory one in the library.
Even if I did it would be in French or Dutch - I'm in Belgium :-)
I'll have a look at Amazon. Thanks a lot.
Kostas
Bandicoot - 30 Sep 2004 01:46 GMT
> > to you photographing insects. I'm not saying don't get a macro
> > lens if it is in your budget, just that you will also need a good
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> philips tripod which is not all bad. This macro lens is not really in
> my budget but I thought that it would be the first step to take..
The difference between using a fine macro lens and a cheap-but-good 50mm
lens with extension is 90% or more convenience rather than image quality.
The quality difference between that fine macro lens and a 50mm plus a two
element supplementary lens is much less than the difference made by using a
tripod - ie. the cheap setup used on a tripod will give better results than
the best specialised macro lens used hand held.
The focusing rail is in some respects a convenience, but remember that when
you turn the focusing ring (or you let AF do it for you) at close-up
distances you are changing the magnification, and so the image size. If you
want to keep the same framing whilst you focus you need to leave the
focusing ring alone and move the camera in and out. After you've done that
a few times by shifting a tripod back and forth, the focusing rail soon
becomes very attractive!
> > A 50mm lens reversed on a 200mm will give you very good
> > results for insects, and with a bit more working distance than the
> > 100mm gives you. Extension
>
> You lost me here. What do you mean reversed ?
Ah. You use a mounting ring that is like two male filter rings joined back
to back to mount one lens 'face to face' on the front of another, so the
lens you've attached has its rear element facing toward the subject. This
turns the lens you've mounted on the front into, in effect, an extremely
high quality supplementary lens - so you get magnification and, unlike using
extension tubes, bellows, or racking out a long focus mount, you don't lose
any light through adding extension.
It works best with a shorter focal length lens on the front of a longer one.
The approximate magnification you get with the prime lens (the one that's
attached to the camera) set at infinity is given by dividing its focal
length by that of the one you've put on the front: so a 50mm on a 200 gives
you the 4x that is the most you are likely to need for any but the tiniest
insects. A 100mm on a 200 (or a 50mm on a 100, or whatever) gives you 2x,
and so on. Leave the aperture in the stacked lens wide open and control
exposure with the prime.
> > There are lots of good books on all this stuff - you'll probably
> > find John Shaw's introductory one in the library.
>
> Even if I did it would be in French or Dutch - I'm in Belgium :-)
> I'll have a look at Amazon. Thanks a lot.
The one I had in mind is published by Amphoto and is called "John Shaw's
Closeups in Nature" - it's a pretty thorough introduction, and covers all of
the various main techniques for 'etting close'.
Have fun,
Peter
JD - 29 Sep 2004 05:55 GMT
Check out John Shaw's book 'Closeups in Nature'.
A quick online link to gander at (especially for us olympus freaks)
http://www.alanwood.net/photography/
JD
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Thanks
> Kostas
Kostas Melissaris - 29 Sep 2004 20:00 GMT
I'ld like to thank everybody for the very helpful answers :-)
Cheers !
Kostas
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Thanks
> Kostas