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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / June 2004

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candid photography lesson number one?

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Mike Henley - 06 Jun 2004 18:58 GMT
lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?

isn't it so? though i bet same can be said for adults. Well today, i
remembered something that some of you guys said, that you don't need
to ask for people's permission to take pictures of them in public, and
decided to throw aside my inhibitions, so there was this sight that
momentarily interested me of some kids at some local spectator sports
club (i was out to take pictures of the river and the industrial area
around it, which i did, but then i just stumbled at the place somehow)
where they were playing their version of the grown ups' sport, with
the grown ups playing in the background behind them... so i looked in
the viewfinder and contemptlated whether it'd be a good picture
(eventually decided it wasn't) but then got challenged by people who
apparently thought it was not "funny" (as in amusing) that someone
would take pictures just 'cos he likes taking pictures...

I avoided confrontation anyway and walked away, and as I did so i
heard someone yelling "pervert"...

And it did upset me much that i just went straight back home, and when
i got home i was thinking of just selling my cameras. You know, like,
this hobby isn't for me. But then as i calmed down a little i thought
maybe that those spectator sports crowd in industrial areas, drinking
on a sunday afternoon, aren't that bright, and maybe artistic pastimes
like photography aren't that obvious to them.

But then i remembered that just before i had an impulse to overcome my
inhibitions (shyness?) about photographing people i don't know, i did
think it likely that people would object to me photographing them,
even if it wasn't illegal to photograph someone you see in public,
eventhough that last week I did take pictures of people i didn't know
and their kids (the pictures i showed you), and some turned out good
pictures, but i guess maybe that was a more educated and tolerant
crowd, judging by the area where i found them.

I just don't think this candid photography thing is worth the hassle
for me.
Mark M - 06 Jun 2004 19:54 GMT
> lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I avoided confrontation anyway and walked away, and as I did so i
> heard someone yelling "pervert"...

Your mistake was to walk away at that point.
When called a "pervert", you should have challenged them IMHO.
Leaving that unchallenged is almost like an acknowledgement that they are
onto you.

I would have said something to the effect that what is perverted is a person
so quick to asume that any attention payed to children is an automatic
indication of perversion.
I'm quite frankly sick and tired of the paranoia that has meant NO kids play
outside anymore...
...NO kids walk to school anymore...etc. etc.

It's just sickeningly sad.
If parents would collectively allow their children to do some of these
things, they would create a safer environment by increasing the number of
kids out there.  Instead, because everyone has become so paranoid, the FEW
kids who ARE allowed to venture out become MORE at risk, because now they
are typically the ONLY kids there...whereas before, there would have been
safety in numbers.

You might have simply said, "What is it about YOU that makes you immediately
think of perversion when you see someone who appreciates the joy of kids at
play."
Mxsmanic - 06 Jun 2004 20:43 GMT
> I would have said something to the effect that what is perverted is a person
> so quick to asume that any attention payed to children is an automatic
> indication of perversion.

I agree, and I regularly point that out.  When someone expresses
reservations about photography, saying that it makes them worry about
pedophilia, I ask them why they are so quick to associate sex with
children.  That can often produce an embarrassed silence.

> I'm quite frankly sick and tired of the paranoia that has meant NO kids play
> outside anymore...
> ...NO kids walk to school anymore...etc. etc.

I agree.

> It's just sickeningly sad.
> If parents would collectively allow their children to do some of these
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> are typically the ONLY kids there...whereas before, there would have been
> safety in numbers.

Kids really aren't that much at risk, anyway.

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William Graham - 07 Jun 2004 03:22 GMT
> > lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> think of perversion when you see someone who appreciates the joy of kids at
> play."

Hear, hear!  -  I agree completely.......
Sabineellen - 07 Jun 2004 03:30 GMT
>> You might have simply said, "What is it about YOU that makes you
>immediately
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>Hear, hear!  -  I agree completely.......

I'm not sure a confrontational attitude is helpful.
Mark M - 07 Jun 2004 04:52 GMT
> >> You might have simply said, "What is it about YOU that makes you
> >immediately
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I'm not sure a confrontational attitude is helpful.

What I suggested was NOT a "confrontational attitude."

It WAS a reasonable and reflective RESPONSE a photographer could give to a
highly accusative and confrontational comment.

When confronted with wildly misplaced and assumptive accusations, it is
highly appropriate to respond with words that expose ignorance and perhaps
even cause personal reflection that may slow that person's tendency to
assume the same in the future.
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 06:15 GMT
> I'm not sure a confrontational attitude is helpful.

Unfortunately it's about the only way to defend your rights.

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k - 06 Jun 2004 19:58 GMT
when i shoot candid work... my emphasis is never on
focusing on someone i dont know... i go for composition,
which can help the image without being too directly pointed at
the individual.  it also allows you to casually see "through" the subject,
while you're standing there with a camera and not staring at them... they
are
much more comfortable.

the best places to do candid work is also on the streets where people
are singled out and arent sitting around doing nothing... dealing with
the mob mentality is never the best way.

should you decide to do candid work, you should make a full day of it.
it takes some warming up to the idea of shooting strangers and going from
shooting stills to people.  you need to show no hesitation and be confident
about
your actions.  nothing freaks people out more than jerky movements and
hesitation
with a camera.

candids are also aggressive in nature, it helps to get in tune with just
getting the picture and
not caring about consequences.  look at gerry winogrand, he never took
pictures he'd thought he'd get away
with... its always "bang" in your face (28mm).  winogrand challenged people,
its a hard thing to do but keep it up, its one
of the most rewarding things i've discovered about photography.

www.kframe.org

k.

> lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> I just don't think this candid photography thing is worth the hassle
> for me.
TP - 06 Jun 2004 20:23 GMT
>I just don't think this candid photography thing is worth the hassle
>for me.

Let's face it, your approach wasn't exactly subtle, was it?
Sabineellen - 06 Jun 2004 20:35 GMT
>Let's face it, your approach wasn't exactly subtle, was it?

What's subtle? zoom and out of subject's sight?
Mxsmanic - 06 Jun 2004 20:44 GMT
> Let's face it, your approach wasn't exactly subtle, was it?

Why should it be?

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Mxsmanic - 06 Jun 2004 20:41 GMT
> ... i guess maybe that was a more educated and tolerant
> crowd, judging by the area where i found them.

I agree.  In general, the most paranoid people are usually the most
stupid.  You'll find that they watch a great deal of TV and often never
read at all.  Their paranoia comes from the media sensationalism they
encounter on TV, and from a natural tendency to allow their behavior to
be guided by their emotions (since their intellects are quite weak).

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Gordon Hudson - 06 Jun 2004 21:11 GMT
> lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I avoided confrontation anyway and walked away, and as I did so i
> heard someone yelling "pervert"...

Its the way things are going.

In a few years time it will generally be considered ill mannered or rude to
take photographs in a non tourist public place.

I even feel uncomfortable getting my kids friends to pose with them at a
birthday party in case the parents complaint hey didn't give their
permission.

Gordon

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http://www.leica-gallery.net/gordon

Mark M - 06 Jun 2004 21:19 GMT
> > lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> birthday party in case the parents complaint hey didn't give their
> permission.

Then you are a part of the problem, Gordon.
As soon as you alter your shooting this way, you have CREATED that reality
by your own hesitency.  Keep shooting.  There is NOTHING wrong with it, and
you should continue accordingly.
Mxsmanic - 06 Jun 2004 22:38 GMT
> Then you are a part of the problem, Gordon.
> As soon as you alter your shooting this way, you have CREATED that reality
> by your own hesitency.  Keep shooting.  There is NOTHING wrong with it, and
> you should continue accordingly.

Agreed.  You're doing nothing wrong, so you don't need to avoid or
apologize for it.  You must not set precedents.  Don't ask for
permission if you don't have to.

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William Graham - 07 Jun 2004 03:32 GMT
> > Then you are a part of the problem, Gordon.
> > As soon as you alter your shooting this way, you have CREATED that reality
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> apologize for it.  You must not set precedents.  Don't ask for
> permission if you don't have to.

Personally, I have a ready-made set of, "excuses" that I can use....Such as,
"My publisher asked me to take these for a story he is doing.", or, "My
instructor assigned our class the project of getting a series of action
shots". I know that I shouldn't have to use these excuses, but I am getting
too old to try to teach the rest of the world what freedom is all
about.......
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 06:16 GMT
> Personally, I have a ready-made set of, "excuses" that I can use....Such as,
> "My publisher asked me to take these for a story he is doing.", or, "My
> instructor assigned our class the project of getting a series of action
> shots". I know that I shouldn't have to use these excuses, but I am getting
> too old to try to teach the rest of the world what freedom is all
> about.......

You're also giving people the impression that photographers are liars.

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Photodad - 06 Jun 2004 22:16 GMT
As a parent, and a photographer, and a former protective services worker, I
feel obliged to offer a counterpoint.

The reality is that a technique used by some child molesters is to be the
friendly neighborhood photographer.  Most kids like having there picture
taken.  Do it a few times, share the pictures with them, and soon you have
their trust.

So how do I deal with it?  I ask the parents first.  If I don't know the
parents, or they aren't available, I don't shoot the picture.  There are
some boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, regardless of what the law says.

Walt

>> lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Gordon
Mxsmanic - 06 Jun 2004 22:40 GMT
> The reality is that a technique used by some child molesters is to be the
> friendly neighborhood photographer.

The reality is that the friendly neighborhood photographer is almost
never a child molester.

> Most kids like having there picture taken.

Too bad they get paranoid as they get older.

> Do it a few times, share the pictures with them, and soon you have
> their trust.

Is it bad to have someone's trust?  Does everyone have to distrust
everyone else?

> So how do I deal with it?  I ask the parents first.  If I don't know the
> parents, or they aren't available, I don't shoot the picture.  There are
> some boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, regardless of what the law says.

What other rights are you voluntarily giving up in exchange for illusory
protection from nonexistent bogeymen?

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Photodad - 07 Jun 2004 02:06 GMT
>> The reality is that a technique used by some child molesters is to be the
>> friendly neighborhood photographer.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> What other rights are you voluntarily giving up in exchange for illusory
> protection from nonexistent bogeymen?

If you think that child molesters are "nonexistent bogeymen," you are a
fool.  I have worked with many children who have been victimized, including
two of my nieces.  We had a neighbor who used just this ruse to molest
children.  The threat is real.

Respecting the rights of parents to protect their children will always be my
choice.  And any stranger taking multiple shots of my children can expect to
be questioned vigerously.

Walt
Matt Clara - 07 Jun 2004 02:36 GMT
> >> The reality is that a technique used by some child molesters is to be the
> >> friendly neighborhood photographer.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> two of my nieces.  We had a neighbor who used just this ruse to molest
> children.  The threat is real.

The threat is real, but nowhere near as prominent as the media would have us
believe.  This is the problem with the media, they need ratings--murder,
rape, burglary, child molestation--these high-profile, shocking stories are
what's featured, night after night, because they bring ratings, and so we
come to view all strangers as suspect, and so we live in fear.  As some have
pointed out, it seems to be a cycle of fear and consumption.  It's
interesting to note, this is primarily a US thing.  And look at the present
state of affairs.  We've been told several times now that we are at "amber
alert level" even though the feds can't say why--it's as though they are
saying, "just be afraid".  Far cry from, the only thing we have to fear...

> Respecting the rights of parents to protect their children will always be my
> choice.  And any stranger taking multiple shots of my children can expect to
> be questioned vigerously.
>
> Walt

And if they choose to ignore you?

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Sabineellen - 07 Jun 2004 03:07 GMT
>The threat is real, but nowhere near as prominent as the media would have us
>believe.  This is the problem with the media, they need ratings--murder,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>pointed out, it seems to be a cycle of fear and consumption.  It's
>interesting to note, this is primarily a US thing.

I agree that the media has a big role in fueling this sensationalism and lynch
mob mentality. But it's not only a US phenomenon, the UK has it too.

I think the gentleman you're responding to though, Matt, may be overly
sensitive to this issue because he's experienced it. It's real, and prevalent
somewhat, though the truth is that most those abused are abused by their own
family and family friends, not some stranger with a camera.

I'm just not sure what the point of this candid photography is for the
enthausiast.
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 06:19 GMT
> I agree that the media has a big role in fueling this sensationalism and lynch
> mob mentality. But it's not only a US phenomenon, the UK has it too.

The UK has similar problems with the media.

> I'm just not sure what the point of this candid photography is for the
> enthausiast.  

The most interesting pictures of people are those taken when the people
are not posing for the camera.

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Sabineellen - 07 Jun 2004 02:57 GMT
>If you think that child molesters are "nonexistent bogeymen," you are a
>fool.  I have worked with many children who have been victimized, including
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Walt

What I find amazing is that i have actually been to Arabic/Islamic countries
and as averse they are to sexuality they seem, mostly, quite innocent about
people taking pictures of their children and often seem flattered. (not that i
have actually tried to, but just my general impression, though taking pictures
of their women would easily land you in big trouble).

I do think pedophilia/incest is more of a prevalent problem in western
societies, which is ironic that they'd be suspicious considering how liberal
they are compared to the Arabs  (though it's present in some Asian societies
where apparently it's not seen as a problem, as travellers to Thailand
shockingly discover when they go shopping, get lost in the market and end up
down an alley where they, to their horror, see young girls on display) and I,
personally, blame it on two things... first, alcohol, i have the impression
that most abused children are abused by someone they know and it's often caused
directly or indirectly by alcohol (either intoxicated or just an alcoholic)...
and second, alienation, some people are just awfully alienated in western
societies, and ironically for an individualist cutlure, western culture is just
quite intolerant of the alienated, but i won't go into detail with this one.
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 06:23 GMT
> What I find amazing is that i have actually been to Arabic/Islamic countries
> and as averse they are to sexuality they seem, mostly, quite innocent about
> people taking pictures of their children and often seem flattered.

The difference would be that they don't have sensationalistic media
reporting every single case of child abuse they can dig up.

Some Muslims incorrectly believe that photography is prohibited by Islam
and will object to it on that basis.

> I do think pedophilia/incest is more of a prevalent problem in western
> societies ...

Not really.  Incest is fairly common and exists just about everywhere.
Pedophilia is a rare psychological disorder and it isn't very common
anywhere.  Neither of these have anything to do with photography,
though.

>... first, alcohol, i have the impression
> that most abused children are abused by someone they know and it's often caused
> directly or indirectly by alcohol ...

Alcohol is a big factor in all sorts of domestic violence and abuse.  I
still don't see what this has to do with photographers, though.

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Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 06:18 GMT
> If you think that child molesters are "nonexistent bogeymen," you are a
> fool.

If you think that they are common enough and correlated enough with
photography to justify treating photographers like pariahs, you're a bit
paranoid.

> I have worked with many children who have been victimized, including
> two of my nieces.  We had a neighbor who used just this ruse to molest
> children.  The threat is real.

It's real, but it's very, very small.

> Respecting the rights of parents to protect their children will always be my
> choice.

Cameras are not weapons.  Nobody has to be "protected" from them.

> And any stranger taking multiple shots of my children can expect to
> be questioned vigerously.

Question all you want.  Just remember that it's perfectly legal in
public, and you cannot object (in most jurisdictions).

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William Graham - 07 Jun 2004 03:36 GMT
> > The reality is that a technique used by some child molesters is to be the
> > friendly neighborhood photographer.
>
> The reality is that the friendly neighborhood photographer is almost
> never a child molester.

Yeah.....Not too many child molesters carry an F5, $2000 worth of lenses,
and a tripod.......
Photodad - 07 Jun 2004 03:50 GMT
>>> The reality is that a technique used by some child molesters is to be
> the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Yeah.....Not too many child molesters carry an F5, $2000 worth of lenses,
> and a tripod.......

And I hope you never have to look at the shots taken by those that do.

Yes, I am probably overly-sensitive on this issue.  But I am not alone, as
the original poster can attest.  The wise photographer would, in my opinion,
understand this and be prepared with "excuses," explanations, or whatever
else you want to call it.

Does asking permission really surrender anyone's freedom?

Walt
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 06:26 GMT
> And I hope you never have to look at the shots taken
> by those that do.

They are rarely on display in photo exhibitions.

> Yes, I am probably overly-sensitive on this issue.

Yes, you are.

> But I am not alone, as the original poster can attest.

Being part of a mob doesn't justify your attitude.

> The wise photographer would, in my opinion,
> understand this and be prepared with "excuses," explanations, or whatever
> else you want to call it.

The wise photographer is honest and always has an explanation, anyway.

> Does asking permission really surrender anyone's freedom?

Yes, in situations where permission is not required.

Do black people surrender any freedoms by _asking_ to sit at the front
of the bus?  After all, it's just the polite thing to do, right?  Some
people don't like black people sitting up front, so maybe they should
ask permission, even though they don't need to.  Don't you agree?

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Matt Clara - 07 Jun 2004 17:23 GMT
> >>> The reality is that a technique used by some child molesters is to be
> > the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> understand this and be prepared with "excuses," explanations, or whatever
> else you want to call it.

I call it a business card.
:-)

> Does asking permission really surrender anyone's freedom?
>
> Walt

Nope, it changes the dynamic.  It's a more successful route,
photographically speaking, to apologize afterwards than to ask permission
before.  You should know something about the culture before you do, though.
Some parts of the world you can get shot for taking a photograph...there's
an article in LensWork that refers to a specific incident, somewhere in the
Appalachians.  I could look it up...  :-)

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Sabineellen - 07 Jun 2004 18:22 GMT
>Nope, it changes the dynamic.  It's a more successful route,
>photographically speaking, to apologize afterwards than to ask permission
>before.

This is a %100 true. In my experience, you see something that intrigues you,
ask for permission, and then the subject poses for a photograph at which point
you suddenly lose all interest in the photo but have to go ahead with it or at
least pretend to be, because the photo has lost all its spontanienty and no
longer looks like anything you saw in it originally.
William Graham - 08 Jun 2004 04:32 GMT
> >Nope, it changes the dynamic.  It's a more successful route,
> >photographically speaking, to apologize afterwards than to ask permission
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> least pretend to be, because the photo has lost all its spontanienty and no
> longer looks like anything you saw in it originally.

Exactly. Which is why I take candid photos, and am occasionally accused of
being "sneaky"....(Which is the truth.) But 35 mm film is cheap, and if I
have to take a posed picture once in a while, it doesn't hurt anyone. Wide
angle lenses are good. You can stand 10 feet away from someone, point your
camera at the scene next to them, and take their picture without them even
knowing it.
Sabineellen - 08 Jun 2004 11:43 GMT
> You can stand 10 feet away from someone, point your
>camera at the scene next to them, and take their picture without them even
>knowing it.

What lens do you use?

Does this mean you crop it afterwards?
William Graham - 08 Jun 2004 23:14 GMT
> > You can stand 10 feet away from someone, point your
> >camera at the scene next to them, and take their picture without them even
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Does this mean you crop it afterwards?

My favorite is the 20 mm f/3.5 Nikkor, and I take slides, and don't
crop.....I just like have something/someone nice looking in the foreground
of my scenery....It adds interest to the photograph, especially if the
subjects don't realize they are going to be in the picture.
Michael Scarpitti - 08 Jun 2004 17:31 GMT
> Exactly. Which is why I take candid photos, and am occasionally accused of
> being "sneaky"....(Which is the truth.) But 35 mm film is cheap, and if I
> have to take a posed picture once in a while, it doesn't hurt anyone. Wide
> angle lenses are good. You can stand 10 feet away from someone, point your
> camera at the scene next to them, and take their picture without them even
> knowing it.

Nah, I've got many ways. Of of my favorites is to look beyond your
subjects and to pretend to be interested in something behind them,
then focus on them. Most people don't care if they're IN your photo,
but they sometimes don't want to be the object of your attention.

Another way is to focus on a point on the ground about 90 degrees away
(allow for the difference in distance), then at the last moment whip
around and shoot. Both of these methods disarm the fearful.
William Graham - 08 Jun 2004 23:18 GMT
> > Exactly. Which is why I take candid photos, and am occasionally accused of
> > being "sneaky"....(Which is the truth.) But 35 mm film is cheap, and if I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (allow for the difference in distance), then at the last moment whip
> around and shoot. Both of these methods disarm the fearful.

Yes....And I find that tripods are useful. When you are using a tripod,
people passing by don't think you are interested in taking their
picture....Somehow, they seem to think that you are taking something in the
distance over their shoulder. As you say, they don't know you are focusing
at 20 feet, instead of infinity......
Mark M - 09 Jun 2004 07:36 GMT
> > "William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:<kraxc.56027$3x.25761@attbi_s54>...
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> distance over their shoulder. As you say, they don't know you are focusing
> at 20 feet, instead of infinity......

Heeheehee...
I like that one.
It's sort of the ultimate opposite of subtlety...but it's effective!
Mike Henley - 07 Jun 2004 13:48 GMT
> As a parent, and a photographer, and a former protective services worker, I
> feel obliged to offer a counterpoint.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Walt

I think your experience as a former protective services worker
might've led you to believe that sexual molestation is more prevalent
than it really is, especially if that's all you see all day. You're
not seeing a normal population, but a highly selected one (molesters).
Most people don't have a daily experience with sexual molestation like
you occupationally did.

That said, it is prevalent, though i maintain that it's probably more
likely that children are abused by someone they know, like a relative
or a family friend, rather than a stranger with a camera.

I can't help but ask you the question... what is abusive about a
person taking a picture of a fully clothed child in a public place in
sight and in the presence of their parents, even without asking for
permission, especially one that obviously doesn't try to make contact
with them but just treats them as a photographic subject and part of a
scene, in the same way he treats a rock or a tree visible in his
viewfinder, and then just moves on and walks away?
Photodad - 07 Jun 2004 14:49 GMT
> I can't help but ask you the question... what is abusive about a
> person taking a picture of a fully clothed child in a public place in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> scene, in the same way he treats a rock or a tree visible in his
> viewfinder, and then just moves on and walks away?

By itself, there is nothing abusive in what you describe.  But privacy laws
vary from place to place and it would be illegal in some states of the U.S.
BTW, the U.S. laws allowing photography in public places only apply to
non-commercial photography.  If you are doing it for profit, or potential
profit, you have to get permission.  You may also need a permit from the
agency that controls the public space.  Here are a couple of websites that
explain this and other relevant issues better than I can:

http://www.photosecrets.com/p14.html

http://www.nylawline.com/articlephotog1.htm

In my first reply I was just trying to explain where a parent might be
coming from who would object.  Yes, most children who are abused are abused
by someone they know and trust.  But the concern of parents doesn't need to
be rational to be real.

BTW, just so you all know, I was given my moniker years ago by my daughter's
soccer coach.  I was the dad who always had a camera with him and took
pictures of everything.  (I burned a lot of film on bunch-ball.)  So I have
been there and done that, and continue to do so.  I just show respect for
the parents by making sure they're OK with it first.  In all the years of
doing so, I've only had one parent say no.

Walt
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 20:06 GMT
> But privacy laws vary from place to place and it would be
> illegal in some states of the U.S.

Which ones?

> BTW, the U.S. laws allowing photography in public places only apply to
> non-commercial photography.

No, they apply to ALL photography.

More specifically, there are (almost) no laws _forbidding_ photography
in public places, and that's why it is legal.  It doesn't matter whether
it is commercial or not.

> If you are doing it for profit, or potential
> profit, you have to get permission.

No, you don't, as a general rule.

> You may also need a permit from the
> agency that controls the public space.

Permits, when they are required, are required because large crews can
interfere with the nominal purpose of a public space; they have nothing
to do with the purpose of the photography, in most cases.

> Yes, most children who are abused are abused
> by someone they know and trust.  But the concern of parents doesn't need to
> be rational to be real.

It needs to be rational in order to justify imposing it upon others,
though.

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Mxsmanic - 06 Jun 2004 22:38 GMT
> I even feel uncomfortable getting my kids friends to pose with them at a
> birthday party in case the parents complaint hey didn't give their
> permission.

You don't need their permission.

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Michael Scarpitti - 06 Jun 2004 22:19 GMT
> lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?

The secret is confidence. I just shot two rolls of KR today in one
hour at the downtown arts festival. Nothing but people, and no-one
bothered me, not even big guys who were with the girls I took photos
of.
Al Denelsbeck - 06 Jun 2004 23:44 GMT
> lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I avoided confrontation anyway and walked away, and as I did so i
> heard someone yelling "pervert"...

       Quite possibly, the reason you even received the catcall was because
you walked away without, innocently and with great surprise, asking someone
to tell you how taking photos of children in the open public was something
unsavory.

       Not that this is an easy thing to accomplish, if you already feel
unsure of yourself, but bluntly, there's nothing wrong with it, or illegal,
or immoral, and you have to assure yourself of this first. But by defending
yourself, non-belligerantly, you turn it around on the accuser. In other
words, "Prove to me that I did something wrong," rather than tacit
agreement. If they insist, shrug, laugh, tell them you understand, and move
on. Or ask them, 'Which one's your kid?" and agree not to take pictures of
them.

       The key, perhaps, is to be mildly amused by it all. This implies that
you're surprised anyone would make a fuss - nobody has *before* - and thus
takes a little wind out of their sails. Never get defensive or angry, or
ashamed. These imply guilt. If someone really wants to make a fuss, invite
them to call the police if it will make them feel safer, and say that
you'll be happy to wait. The worst the cops will do is ask you to move on,
but it's highly unlikely that it will ever go that far.


> And it did upset me much that i just went straight back home, and when
> i got home i was thinking of just selling my cameras. You know, like,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I just don't think this candid photography thing is worth the hassle
> for me.

       I have gone back and forth, good days and bad, with candids. Some
days I'm asked to take the shots, or have people mugging. Some days
everyone's shy. Haven't been able to predict it yet. I think one of the
better approaches has been that I don't concentrate on people shots, but am
usually facing the other way doing nature shots. People see me, maybe watch
for a bit, notice I'm not watching people. Then, when something occurs that
makes for a good candid, I'm in a "secure" position to capture it simply
because it's interesting, and not because I'm "following kids around" or
anything of the sort.

       Last weekend, I actually posed a kid with a kite on the beach, and
did so directly in front of his parents with a disarming smile (if I'm
capable of such a thing - it was an attempt at one, anyway). The parents
found it amusing, but afterwards, I was jokingly challenged with, "Let's
see some ID there!" I was already walking forward with my card and promptly
handed it over, explained that I was "freelancing" (nobody understands
anything else), and invited them to drop me an e-mail for a copy and the
chance for some prints. Worked fine.

       If I was in the habit of shooting people, I'd have a practiced spiel
down for this point, with a ready-made package or card, model release, and
possibly a flyer (hard to do on the beach when you're wading, but hey).
Because, not one person has ever gotten back to me, so getting a model
release after the fact doesn't seem too efficient.

       Don't take one occurrence as an indication of anything - conditions
are too widely variable. Ask any wedding photographer ;-). Same with any
one opinion. Instead, just keep trying, different approaches if necessary,
different areas, whatever. Overreaction isn't worth it.

    - Al.

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Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 06:32 GMT
> Because, not one person has ever gotten back to me, so getting a model
> release after the fact doesn't seem too efficient.

If I need a release, I ask for one on the spot, usually in exchange for
a print (sometimes a CD if I've taken enough photos to justify it).
This may come after or before taking the actual photos.  If they sign a
release, I take care to make sure they get the print or CD or whatever I
promised.  I don't normally pay money because very, very few photos are
likely enough to sell to justify paying for a release (if you pay $10
for a release and you only sell one in a hundred of your released
photos, you lose a lot of money).

Sometimes I offer people prints because I'm such a nice person, but even
then I have them sign a release (so at least I get something out of it).
Such photos usually aren't commercially interesting but I don't want
people to get the idea that they're entitled to free prints from anyone
who takes a picture of them on the street.

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C J D - 07 Jun 2004 11:21 GMT
> lesson number one... don't take pictures of kids who aren't yours?
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> think it likely that people would object to me photographing them,
> even if it wasn't illegal to photograph someone you see in public,

<snip>

I can sympathize with you, but I have a few comments that might be
helpful.  First, I think you did the right thing by ignoring the
name-calling.  To have responded, even by an overtly friendly attitude,
might well have gotten you a hiding and your gear smashed, if the
objectors were of the type you describe.  A group who have been drinking
and engaging in physical contact sport would be unlikely to listen to your
explanations, and likely would have seized the first excuse to attack
you.  In this I have to disagree with those like mxmanic who say you have
a right to do it so go ahead.  Your rights won't protect you from getting
a hiding if you stand up to the wrong people.  Discretion is always better
than valor when faced with threatening people - unless you are a black
belt or a pro boxer.

Also,  consider that your misgivings and some apprehension and lack of
confidence at taking candids of the kids as you describe would most
probably have translated to unmistakable body language to anyone watching,
which they may well have interpreted as furtiveness, leading them to class
you as a 'pervert'.

It's a lamentable truism that people judge others by their looks and first
impressions.  Some people can manage to convey charm and trustworthiness
by their bearing and looks - they are said to have 'presence'; others are
just invisible till they do something like taking a photograph, and then
the snap judgement brands them as undesirables - particularly if the
onlooker cannot see why you might want to take the shot, and automatically
suspects the worst.

On top of it all, photographers today are up against public opinion formed
by sensational news reporting about child pornography; by states such as
Florida which I believe has banned taking photographs of children,
complete with reports of fathers being arrested for taking shots of their
own kids at swimmimg pools; by reports of cellphone cameras being banned
in many places because of shots being taken up womens' skirts, in toilets,
etc,; even banning the use of children as models in legitimate advertising
shots.  The upshot of all this attention on 'prurient' photography is that
anyone with a camera is immediately suspect unless they are seen to be
taking only touristy snaps.  Anything else will brand them as perverts.

It's not so bad here in New Zealand, but it's there alright.  Anyone with
a camera is literally at the mercy of the onlookers, and if they take
exception ... which is why my photography is confined these days to
scenery and landscapes, apart from my own grandchildren.

Colin D.
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 20:09 GMT
> Your rights won't protect you from getting
> a hiding if you stand up to the wrong people.

If you allow yourself to be intimidated by any violence (or, worse yet,
the threat of violence), you may as well kiss all your rights goodbye
now.  There are laws against violent acts, and if people attack you,
they go to jail.  Sometimes that's where they belong.

> It's not so bad here in New Zealand, but it's there alright.  Anyone with
> a camera is literally at the mercy of the onlookers, and if they take
> exception ... which is why my photography is confined these days to
> scenery and landscapes, apart from my own grandchildren.

Maybe you should just confine it to still lifes in your living room,
just to be absolutely safe.

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C J D - 08 Jun 2004 00:31 GMT
> > Your rights won't protect you from getting
> > a hiding if you stand up to the wrong people.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> now.  There are laws against violent acts, and if people attack you,
> they go to jail.  Sometimes that's where they belong.

They have to be caught first, to go to jail.  And if you're lying in hospital
on life-support with your head kicked in and your brain mashed, what the hell
good is it for you if they're in jail or not?  You appear to have a theoretical
outlook which takes no cognisance of practicality.

Colin D.
Mxsmanic - 08 Jun 2004 04:00 GMT
> They have to be caught first, to go to jail.

If you have physical evidence such as injury or damage to your property,
you can file a complaint and that will often suffice.  Even if you don't
have evidence, you can file a complaint for assault if they threaten
you, and so on.

> And if you're lying in hospital on life-support with your
> head kicked in and your brain mashed, what the hell
> good is it for you if they're in jail or not?

That isn't likely to happen.

> You appear to have a theoretical
> outlook which takes no cognisance of practicality.

You sound as though you might be most comfortable taking photos under
your bed at home, where nobody can beat you up.

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Tramp'oline - 07 Jun 2004 14:45 GMT
You must look like a pervert and/or need practise in taking candids.
Sabineellen - 07 Jun 2004 15:31 GMT
>You must look like a pervert and/or need practise in taking candids.

what does a pervert look like?
Michael Scarpitti - 07 Jun 2004 19:47 GMT
> >You must look like a pervert and/or need practise in taking candids.
>
> what does a pervert look like?

See Alan Browne....
Alan Browne - 07 Jun 2004 20:45 GMT
>>>You must look like a pervert and/or need practise in taking candids.
>>
>>what does a pervert look like?
>
> See Alan Browne....

I don't know any perverts so I can't help you.

(You are a blazing a.s Scarpetti).
Michael Scarpitti - 08 Jun 2004 03:14 GMT
> >>>You must look like a pervert and/or need practise in taking candids.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> (You are a blazing a.s Scarpetti).

"There! there again! there she breaches! right ahead!  The White
Whale, the White Whale!"

"There she breaches! there she breaches!" was the cry, as in his
immeasurable bravadoes the White Whale tossed himself salmon-like to
Heaven.  So suddenly seen in the blue plain of the sea, and relieved
against the still bluer margin of the sky, the spray that he raised,
for the moment, intolerably glittered and glared like a glacier; and
stood there gradually fading and fading away from its first sparkling
intensity, to the dim mistiness of an advancing shower in a vale.

"Aye, breach your last to the sun, Moby Dick!" cried Ahab, "thy hour
and thy harpoon are at hand!--Down! down all of ye, but one man at
the fore.  The boats!--stand by!"

So, you have the time to adjust for Moby's white skin, as the whale
bears down on you?
Mxsmanic - 07 Jun 2004 20:09 GMT
> what does a pervert look like?

Any male with a camera.

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