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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / February 2010[SI] New Mandates!
OK, here's the deal: in an attempt to encourage participation, the SI Dictator has decided to announce multiple mandates with a "capture date" so you can shoot for multiple mandates, and take more time for the harder mandates. With that in mind, here's the next three mandates, all of which have a capture date starting today: Lines and Intersections: self explanatory. Due March 7th, 2010. F8 and be there: while any phot shot at F8 is acceptable, the hope is that you'll submit something journalistic, a photo where you were in the right place at the right time and just fired at will. Due April 11th, 2010 Facescape: a merciless shot of a person's face in high detail. No animals, building facades, just human beings, please! The human face is a source of endless interest, so find someone interesting, shoot them, and show us the results! Due May 16th, 2010. The shoot-in is located here: http://www.pbase.com/shootin The rulez are here: http://www.pbase.com/shootin/rulzpage I'll have sample shots and galleries posted within a day or two. >OK, here's the deal: in an attempt to encourage participation, the SI >Dictator has decided to announce multiple mandates with a "capture [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >I'll have sample shots and galleries posted within a day or two. I could shoot my face at f8 and get all 3 at once! * Leon@nospam.com wrote : > [---=| Quote block shrinked by t-prot: 20 lines snipped |=---] >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I could shoot my face at f8 and get all 3 at once! LOL. Wish I'd have thought of that one! :)  SignatureTroy Piggins >>OK, here's the deal: in an attempt to encourage participation, the SI >>Dictator has decided to announce multiple mandates with a "capture [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >I could shoot my face at f8 and get all 3 at once! Nice, but remember you're allowed three submissions for each mandate with a file size limit of 300k per shot. This gives you lots of creativity to explore your angular face, I guess. Can't wait to see the results. >>>OK, here's the deal: in an attempt to encourage participation, the SI >>>Dictator has decided to announce multiple mandates with a "capture [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Can't wait to see the results. Submitting a shot of my face would require a panorama to include all of my nose. Does a panorama count as one entry, or one entry per frame? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Lines and Intersections: self explanatory. Due March 7th, 2010. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is a source of endless interest, so find someone interesting, shoot > them, and show us the results! Due May 16th, 2010. The Tri-fecta being a lines/intersection facescape at f/8. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. > F8 and be there: while any phot shot at F8 is acceptable, the hope is > that you'll submit something journalistic, a photo where you were in > the right place at the right time and just fired at will. Due April > 11th, 2010 Is that 35mm equivalent f/8 or absolute f/8? I mean in terms of depth of field... so an APS crop SLR would be more like f/6 or something and a P&S more like f/4. <yes, I'm just being difficult> ;-) But it's interesting to examine what the f/8 principal really means... The intent could almost be interpreted as putting the camera in auto mode although there are some cases where it would choose odd settings, the point of the f/8 'rule' is to just put the camera on a safe setting with best sharpness and a plenty fast shutter speed so you don't have to think about settings or worry too much about shallow focus. Compare to the 'sunny 16' rule which starts at f/16 for optimal sharpness on full frame. Sunny 16 would only use f/8 on a cloudy day and the intent of sunny 16 is to calculate exposure without a light meter so that one has you scratching your head & counting fingers before every shot. 'Sunny 16' is kind more a rule for tripod shooting. Another guideline is for hand held shooting; shutter speed the same as your focal length, 1/50 sec for 50mm. So at 50mm 1/50 sec, f/8. But 1/50 sec is an extreme setting, meaning you'd have to be real careful bracing your arms against your body & pressing the shutter gently to avoid shake - not what you want for "decisive moment" street shooting. "F/8 & be there" is all about *not* using extreme settings. Plus f/8 won't work for longer lenses unless it's full sun - if you had to catch something in the shadows. So that implies something close to a normal lens. If wide angle, f/16 would be safe. The 'decisive moment' approach is similar to 'f/8' but implies action. 'F/8 and be there' could be catching someone taking a nap if it's interesting and worth shooting. The 'decisive moment' approach also implies artsy fartsy where 'f/8' is really more like a reporter's style, which could be the opposite frame of mind. The f/8 rule could definitely include flash also... even very harsh flash under bad lighting conditions. Or it could be a sunset... caught at the perfect time from the perfect vantage, where you are prepared with the camera in a safe setting. How many times do we see amazing stuff like that but don't have the camera out or have the settings ready for some peculiar situation? I got another roll of film for my little Nikon EM with the 45mm pancake on it and I left it in the car glovebox so that's going to be my 'f/8 and be there' strategy. Boy, do I like to make things complicated or what? <g> Thanks for keeping the SI running Bowser! >> F8 and be there: while any phot shot at F8 is acceptable, the hope is >> that you'll submit something journalistic, a photo where you were in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > that one has you scratching your head & counting fingers before every > shot. 'Sunny 16' is kind more a rule for tripod shooting. For FL's often used (28 - 135 ish) at ISO 100 and faster, it is quite acceptable for handheld shots with some care to technique from 100mm or so and higher (print size drives this more than the 'rule'). IAC, in my mind, sunny-16 is a memory aid as a reciprocity launch point for other settings more than anything else. That said, on some trips I've simply shot the 'blad without using a meter straight at S-16 in all respects (and the 1/125 speed helped saturate the slides as 1/100 is not available on those lenses...), esp. in the sunny s/w US parks. Lore has it that the "f/8 and be there" was the direction from the photo editor at the newspaper for green photogs. It's assumed that 1) they normally shot hand held (and perhaps that should be a requirement of the mandate) and 2) they often if not always shot with flash which would help with shake. Even without flash, ISO 25 would be "Sunny-16" at f/8 and 1/100 (1/60 perhaps with those cameras and B&W film). (Or did they X-sync at 1/25 or so...). Finally one also gathers that most photos taken in the era of lore above were at "normal" or wider FL for the film area. So flash or not, the photog should get a good shot. > Another guideline is for hand held shooting; shutter speed the same as > your focal length, 1/50 sec for 50mm. So at 50mm 1/50 sec, f/8. But 1/50 > sec is an extreme setting, meaning you'd have to be real careful bracing > your arms against your body & pressing the shutter gently to avoid shake > - not what you want for "decisive moment" street shooting. "F/8 & be > there" is all about *not* using extreme settings. If used in the sunny-16 sense, then you are a comfortable two stops faster in shutter speed - until it gets cloudy or dark, anyway. > Plus f/8 won't work for longer lenses unless it's full sun - if you had > to catch something in the shadows. So that implies something close to a > normal lens. If wide angle, f/16 would be safe. 100mm should catch detail in open shade at 1/100 - 1/125 @ f/8 handheld. > The 'decisive moment' approach is similar to 'f/8' but implies action. > 'F/8 and be there' could be catching someone taking a nap if it's [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Boy, do I like to make things complicated or what? <g> Troll baiting? > Thanks for keeping the SI running Bowser! Indeed. Here, here! Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. > IAC, in my mind, sunny-16 is a memory aid as a reciprocity launch point for other settings more than anything else. Right, it's not saying to use f/16, just giving a base point to count from. I didn't even know what exactly it meant till I looked it up today. The second part of sunny 16 is the shutter speed equal to the ISO. f/16, 1/100 sec, ISO 100. The EM film body has a M90 setting for if the battery dies, it'll still shoot at a fixed 1/90th sec. I never had a camera without a meter but that should work out to f/16 in the sun for ISO 90 film. So with my ISO 200 film, I'd have to set f/22 in full sun. >> Boy, do I like to make things complicated or what? <g> > > Troll baiting? 'Initiating a spirited discussion.' It only becomes trolling when putting out crap that one doesn't even believe or knows to be false ;-) I assume 'Bruce' will comment on this one like the 50mm mandate so, I'm also trying to head off any misunderstandings about the assignment. I think it really should be f/8 DOF as 35mm equivalent, I wasn't able to google up the correct numbers easily though I think it's important to use the same DOF that the saying was intended for FF. And I am surprised how complicated such a simple idea can be. And it's ironic that the intent is to not worry about technical details <g>. As always the mandate is just 'rulz' though - meant to be broken as long as one understands what's being broken. >> IAC, in my mind, sunny-16 is a memory aid as a reciprocity launch point for other settings more than anything else. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >always the mandate is just 'rulz' though - meant to be broken as long as >one understands what's being broken. I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not something that should be too complicated. The real test is whether or not the results are interesting and pleasing to the eye. Mine and yours, if you agree with me, but no sweat if you don't. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Paul Furmanwrote: >> Bowser wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > not the results are interesting and pleasing to the eye. Mine and > yours, if you agree with me, but no sweat if you don't. But I enjoy complications! This'll be a struggle for me to ignore the aperture ring at my least favorite setting. You are a free man but for cropped frame, f/5.6 gives the same look that the saying refers to. Just set it once, no math needed. http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=sensor%20sizes MF 69mm f/10 DOF = 6.17 Hasselblad 6x4.5 (60x45mm) FX 50mm f/8 DOF = 6.28' Nikon D700 24x36mm DX 33mm f/5.6 DOF = 6.05' Nikon D300 23.7x15.7mm 4/3 25mm f/4 DOF = 6.34' Olympus EP-1 13.5x18mm P&S 10mm f/3.2 DOF = 6.33' 1/1.8" sensor 5x7mm Canon PowerShot S500 >> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No >> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 4/3 25mm f/4 DOF = 6.34' Olympus EP-1 13.5x18mm > P&S 10mm f/3.2 DOF = 6.33' 1/1.8" sensor 5x7mm Canon PowerShot S500 You're ignoring that F8&BT came out in the press camera era of 4x5 - 2.25x3.25" cameras. IAC, I agree with Cooper that the way to do this is at f/8 only. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No >>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > You're ignoring that F8&BT came out in the press camera era of 4x5 - > 2.25x3.25" cameras. Then f/4 for AP-S - ya bull-headed nitpicker ;-) > IAC, I agree with Cooper that the way to do this is at f/8 only. Well, it really doesn't matter what settings, I suppose that's the real intent of the saying is the 'be there' part. Thinking more about it, my idea of keeping a camera in the car and hoping to stumble on something interesting perhaps isn't the right approach (unless I get lucky). I think the advice is to work hard on being some place interesting with camera ready. The f/8 part means don't tinker around with tricky settings because you might miss the shot. Weegee seems to be the originator of the phrase as it's known today and he was famous for showing up at crime scenes to get the shot as if magically using an Ouija board but I doubt it was luck, he just spent all night tromping around seedy neighborhoods with his camera and listening to police band radio. In other words he worked very hard at it. Plus he had a darkroom in the trunk of his car so he could get the pics ready to print before anyone else. That's dedication. So, the mandate is not for a careless snapshot, it is to work hard at getting to some amazing places and take an honest picture. Don't let the technique get in the way of the content. : >>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No : >>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] : getting to some amazing places and take an honest picture. Don't let the : technique get in the way of the content. IIRC, Weegee always used flash. Bob >>>>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No >>>>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Bob Here he is licking a flash bulb: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/20/arts/design/20expl.html?partner=rss&emc=rss SignatureFrank ess >>>>>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No >>>>>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Here he is licking a flash bulb: > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/20/arts/design/20expl.html?partner=rss&emc=rss The NYT has a lot of great photo essays and that is one of the more fun ones... Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. : >>>>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No : >>>>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] : Here he is licking a flash bulb: : http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/20/arts/design/20expl.html?partner=rss&emc=rss I remember that we used to do that! I haven't the slightest idea whether it actually made any difference. ;^) Bob >: > IIRC, Weegee always used flash. >: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I remember that we used to do that! I haven't the slightest idea > whether it actually made any difference. ;^) Are you sure he's licking a bulb? It looks an awful lot like a cigar, which he was famous for always having. SignatureJoe Makowiec http://makowiec.org/ Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/ >>>> IIRC, Weegee always used flash. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Are you sure he's licking a bulb? It looks an awful lot like a > cigar, which he was famous for always having. It was a reality-based joke, as any ful no. Don't worry, we won't tell, will we, Robert? : >: > IIRC, Weegee always used flash. : >: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : Are you sure he's licking a bulb? It looks an awful lot like a cigar, : which he was famous for always having. Probably a practice lick. Very interesting article, BTW. Bob > :>>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No > :>>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > IIRC, Weegee always used flash. I mentioned this higher up in the thread to little avail. Paul is really stubborn. That's why the call it a Paul market. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >> :>>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No >> :>>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Paul is really stubborn. 'Dedicated.' > That's why the call it a Paul market. You can just call me Bull <g>. >>>> I'm going to set the f/stop at f/8 and shoot. That's it. No >>>> computations. Photography, for me, is an enjoyable hobby and not [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > getting to some amazing places and take an honest picture. Don't let the > technique get in the way of the content. That's always been the meaning to me. You can't shoot what's across town unless you're there instead of frickin around on the internet. Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >> IAC, in my mind, sunny-16 is a memory aid as a reciprocity launch >> point for other settings more than anything else. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I didn't even know what exactly it meant till I looked it up > today. I'm shocked! > The second part of sunny 16 is the shutter speed equal to the > ISO. f/16, 1/100 sec, ISO 100. All implied (1/100 - 100) in the rule. This was a stable state for a good 20 years while many people commonly shot ISO 100 film for GP. With digital and people routinely shooting 200-400.. 800 and more, it takes an extra step of counting the stops. OTOH, it's so easy to chimp-meter with digital that people (me) guess at a setting and take a preview and then tighten it up (the a900 is great for this as I <may> have mentioned in the past). > The EM film body has a M90 setting for if the battery dies, it'll still > shoot at a fixed 1/90th sec. I never had a camera without a meter but > that should work out to f/16 in the sun for ISO 90 film. So with my ISO > 200 film, I'd have to set f/22 in full sun. Really depends on the film you're shooting. For B&W and C-41 you could easily shoot at 1/90. For C-41 if you shot at 1/60 it would be for the good in most cases. For slide you can use 1/125 if you like that saturated look, or 1/90 to thin for scanning. (Shoot one of each - then you have a fine excuse for bracketing ;). >>> Boy, do I like to make things complicated or what? <g> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > easily though I think it's important to use the same DOF that the saying > was intended for FF. I think the mandate stated as f/8&BT is fine enough. Most participants will be shooting crop or full frame and the difference in DOF will not be that great except close in or at high FL's - the later not being the usual intent of "f/8 and be there." eg: a subject at 2 m, f/8, 50mm FF 1.0: 1.7 to 2.45 m Crop 1.6: 1.8 to 2.25 m At 28 - 35 the difference will be more noticeable on the far side of f, of course, but still not be hyper-f. > And I am surprised how complicated such a simple idea can be. And it's > ironic that the intent is to not worry about technical details <g>. As > always the mandate is just 'rulz' though - meant to be broken as long as > one understands what's being broken. It's not surprising that when one takes a simple mandate and then questions the degree or not of freedom of other parameters that it gets complicated. The tri-fecta: a lines and intersections facescape at f/8. I think that's more worthy, subject wise, than whittling away time on DOF considerations across formats... I wonder if the old boozers still hang out at the local pool hall? (For that matter I wonder if there still is a local pool hall...) Signaturegmail originated posts are filtered due to spam. >> F8 and be there: while any phot shot at F8 is acceptable, the hope is >> that you'll submit something journalistic, a photo where you were in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the point of the f/8 'rule' is to just put the camera on a safe setting > with best sharpness Unless you're going to shoot a (journalistic?) macro for this occasion. That would be an interesting entry. SignatureRegards, Robert http://www.arumes.com |
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