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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / April 2008People with Cameras are odd and maybe Terrorists!
"Steve Carroll was another hapless victim of this growing suspicion. Police seized the film from his camera while he was out taking snaps in a Hull shopping centre. They later returned it but a police investigation found they had acted correctly because he appeared to be taking photographs covertly." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7351252.stm "There's a great deal of paranoia around but the police are on alert for anything that vaguely resembles terrorism. It's difficult because the more professional a photographer, paradoxically, the more likely they are to be stopped or questioned." "If people were using photos for terrorism purposes they would be using the smallest camera possible." http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/magazine_enl_1208430127/img/1.jpg Bye bye freedom, hello "security" hail the police state! the future of western civilisation. > "Steve Carroll was another hapless victim of this growing suspicion. > Police seized the film from his camera while he was out taking snaps in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/magazine_enl_1208430127/img/1.jpg Bye > Bye bye freedom, hello "security" hail the police state! the future of > western civilisation. Terrorism - or let's say extreme violence for political purposes - is the future for the world, not just western civilizations. Stay tuned as the Olympics approach, and everyone from Falun Gong to Asian Muslims to Tibetan Buddhists throw themselves at any target of opportunity. Governments of every nationality and political orientation are going to be severely tested for decades. I'm sure they will be grateful for any ideas you may have re: the balancing act between liberty and security. One thing about usenet: everyone has a complaint, but workable solutions are thin on the ground.  Signature"Man's impetus should exceed his detritus." > Governments of every nationality and political orientation are going to be > severely tested for decades. I'm sure they will be grateful for any ideas > you may have re: the balancing act between liberty and security. Western 1st world governments, should stop interfering in other 2nd and 3rd world countries. Adopt foreign policies that do not seek to destructively micro-manage world affairs to their liking, mind their own business, return purely to trade and capitalism and cease this needless liberal interventionism abroad. I don't give a damn about Tibet, I don't give a damn about Darfur. These issues are not a white man's burden, they don't matter to our needs or standard of living. Intervention only creates enemies that want to damage our standard of living out of revenge. Stop the foreign policy stupidity, stop the "terrorism". Return to Realpolitik now before it's too late. >> "Steve Carroll was another hapless victim of this growing suspicion. >> Police seized the film from his camera while he was out taking snaps in a [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > One thing about usenet: everyone has a complaint, but workable solutions > are thin on the ground. >> Governments of every nationality and political orientation are going to >> be severely tested for decades. I'm sure they will be grateful for any [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Stop the foreign policy stupidity, stop the "terrorism". Return to > Realpolitik now before it's too late. Sounds good. - But what do we do if some little two-bit dictator builds an atom bomb and deploys it in Times Square, New York City, on Christmas eve? We have entered an era when things like this are possible, and this is why I don't want my government to turn its back on the rest of the world. - We have no choice but to watch what is going on in order to protect ourselves, and even to interfere with what is going on from time to time. Isolationism is no longer a viable alternative. > Sounds good. - But what do we do if some little two-bit dictator builds an > atom bomb and deploys it in Times Square, New York City, on Christmas eve? Real life is not a Hollywood movie. You imply that building a nuclear bomb, is as easy a flipping a pancake. It isn't, it requires a massive industrialisation process that even some 1st world countries are not capable of. These Two-bit dictator's you speak of, do not just appear from thin air you know. No third world country can obtain the tools to develop weapons of mass destruction without the vast technological know how of the developed world. "Isolationism is no longer a viable alternative." When did capitalism and international trade become "isolationism" ? You are making the argument for imperialism, and your country is about two hundred years too late to join that party. >>> Governments of every nationality and political orientation are going to >>> be severely tested for decades. I'm sure they will be grateful for any [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > ourselves, and even to interfere with what is going on from time to time. > Isolationism is no longer a viable alternative. >> Sounds good. - But what do we do if some little two-bit dictator builds >> an atom bomb and deploys it in Times Square, New York City, on Christmas [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You are making the argument for imperialism, and your country is about two > hundred years too late to join that party. My argument is for prudence, not imperialism. All it takes is one idiot who has more oil than he knows what to do with, and there exist several of them right now. Someone who thinks killing a large number of, "infidels" will assure him of a place in paradise next to Allah, (or whatever) I learned a long time ago not to gamble with my life. - I wait until I can see the road ahead before I pass the truck. Why would I want to wait until one of these idiots kills a million people before I stop him? You say that I am wrong, and maybe you're right. But can you prove that you're right? - I think not. You see, Joseph, you have nothing to lose, but I have a lot to lose. Maybe you'd think differently if you lived in an apartment near Times Square? Am I paranoid? - Sure, but my paranoia is what has kept me alive all these many years. I don't know why these people hate me, but I don't really care. There is nothing I could do about it anyway. All I know is that I don't want my government to turn their backs on them. - I consider anyone who is worth over a billion dollars and has said that they want to kill Americans dangerous. > Maybe you'd think differently if you lived in an apartment near Times > Square? Am I paranoid? - Sure, but my paranoia is what has kept me alive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anyone who is worth over a billion dollars and has said that they want to > kill Americans dangerous. Wow! I tell you, if America could trade fear to the world, she wouldn't have a massive trade deficit any more. LOL. >>> Sounds good. - But what do we do if some little two-bit dictator builds >>> an atom bomb and deploys it in Times Square, New York City, on Christmas [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > anyone who is worth over a billion dollars and has said that they want to > kill Americans dangerous. >> Maybe you'd think differently if you lived in an apartment near Times >> Square? Am I paranoid? - Sure, but my paranoia is what has kept me alive [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Wow! I tell you, if America could trade fear to the world, she wouldn't > have a massive trade deficit any more. LOL. Well, if you think common sense is, "fear", that's OK with me. Call it whatever you want. But I want my air force, (or the Israel air force) to bomb the hell out of any nuclear reactors they find in either Iran or Syria. That's precisely what I pay them for........ >> Governments of every nationality and political orientation are going to >> be severely tested for decades. I'm sure they will be grateful for any >> ideas you may have re: the balancing act between liberty and security. > > Western 1st world governments, should stop interfering in other 2nd and > 3rd world countries. Just to clarify, it is "Old World", for the European monarchies and imperial colonial powers. "New World" for the trans Atlantic Americas, and "Third World" for the post WWII, post colonial developing nations struggling out of a perceived primitive existence towards Western ideals. So we have a 3rd World, but no 1st or 2nd World. > Adopt foreign policies that do not seek to destructively micro-manage > world affairs to their liking, mind their own business, return purely [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Stop the foreign policy stupidity, stop the "terrorism". Return to > Realpolitik now before it's too late. The issue for this NG is, how do we convince knee-jerk reactionaries to understand that most photographers, regardless of equipment are just photographers with no sinister ulterior motives. The reality is, with the exception of a relatively few images, most of the results of images produced by most camera users in publuc places end up in obscure personal oblivion. Those images produced by government agencies (police, intelligence, military, satellite, etc.) are far more dangerous to civil rights and personal freedoms. The smoke screen of targeting amateur, or even professional photographers in the name of the war against terrorism, or child pornography, is just a demonstration of the actual deficiencies in the efforts of the authorities in those areas. Actual terrorist surveillance is bound to be less obvious. The worst of paedophelia takes place behind closed doors, and for the most part within, and by members of the families of the victims, perpetrated by those they most trust. >>> "Steve Carroll was another hapless victim of this growing suspicion. >>> Police seized the film from his camera while he was out taking snaps in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/magazine_enl_1208430127/img/1.jpg Bye Bye >>> bye freedom, hello "security" hail the police state! the future of >>> western civilisation. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> One thing about usenet: everyone has a complaint, but workable >> solutions are thin on the ground. > Just to clarify, it is "Old World", for the European monarchies and > imperial colonial powers. "New World" for the trans Atlantic Americas, and > "Third World" for the post WWII, post colonial developing nations > struggling out of a perceived primitive existence towards Western ideals. > So we have a 3rd World, but no 1st or 2nd World. The terms Old world and New world are not economic denominations. 3rd world is. Western Europe, North America and Japan are 1st world areas. Southern North America, Russia, Eastern Europe, Middle East, South West Asia are 2nd world areas. Africa, Central Asia, South East Asia, South America are 3rd world areas. With exceptions of course. >>> Governments of every nationality and political orientation are going to >>> be severely tested for decades. I'm sure they will be grateful for any [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >>> One thing about usenet: everyone has a complaint, but workable solutions >>> are thin on the ground. > The issue for this NG is, how do we convince knee-jerk > reactionaries It's not the reactionaries: reactionaries want the government the 'ef out of their life. They only get pissed when you are taking pictures of _them_. It is the "caring and compassionate advocates for -fill-in-the-blank-" and the "I'm from the Government and I am here to assure your safety" crowds that get all antsy about anyone taking pictures. They too have very jerky knees. > So we have a 3rd World, but no 1st or 2nd World. The 1st World is 'western democracies'. The 2nd World was the Soviet Union & Co. and is down to N. Korea and Cuba, what with China making it to 1st world consumptive status. The 3rd World is anyplace without cable - just ask your daughter. > photographers with no sinister ulterior motives. There is something about a photograph 'capturing a bit of your soul without your permission'. Having my picture taken often feels invasive, and I think many people feel the same way. In popular entertainment the photographer is always the baddy. Chief Detective: "What do we know about this guy?" Handsome Sidekick: "He's a photographer." Everyone in the room: Shift in their seats and pass knowing glances. Chief Detective: "Right. Bring him in for questioning, and I don't care how." Primitive cultures have strong feelings against having their picture taken, usually with a belief that possession of their picture allows someone to do them harm. Just training a metal box with a glass eye at someone is a threatening act, never mind the purpose of the box. There is a lot of wisdom in never letting a White Man aim anything at you... SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index2.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/17/iraq.usa 2 years in jail, but photographer not a terrorist after all. > "Steve Carroll was another hapless victim of this growing suspicion. > Police seized the film from his camera while he was out taking snaps in a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Bye bye freedom, hello "security" hail the police state! the future of > western civilisation. > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/17/iraq.usa > > 2 years in jail, but photographer not a terrorist after all. Considering it's a war zone and the materials he had in his possession it's understandable. In fact he was not declared innocent; only that there was not enough evidence to go forward. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. > Considering it's a war zone and the materials he had in his possession > it's understandable. In fact he was not declared innocent; only that > there was not enough evidence to go forward. There is no "war" in Iraq. War is a declared legal state of affairs. What is going on in Iraq today is purely foreign occupation, with resistance violence toward that occupation and it's indigenous supporters. >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/17/iraq.usa >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it's understandable. In fact he was not declared innocent; only that > there was not enough evidence to go forward. Joseph Kewfi wrote,on my timestamp of 17/04/2008 10:27 PM: > Bye bye freedom, hello "security" hail the police state! the future of > western civilisation. it's actually called fascism and is nothing new. some folks however seem to have forgotten what it was like... |
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