Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / August 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

ATTN: Math Geeks !

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Annika1980 - 20 Aug 2007 06:06 GMT
I am trying to do a comparison of the relative image size between my
8.2MP Canon 20D, the 10.1MP 40D, and the new 21.1MP 1DsMKIII.  I came
up with the following comparative photos by blowing up the original
image to the new size and then cropping the same amount from each.

http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/84182711/original

This shows that there really isn't too much to be gained (size-wise)
by going from 8.2MP to the 10.1MP of the 40D.  However, the 21.1MP
image is quite a jump.
But then it hit me that I hadn't considered the 1.6x crop factor of
the 20D and the 40D as compared to the full frame of the 1DsMKIII.
So the image size of the 1DsMKIII in my comparison is wrong.
However, I'm a bit stumped on how big it should be. Help!

For reference, here are the dimensions of the files produced by each
camera:

20D:  3504 x 2336
40D:  3888 x 2592
1DsMK3:  5616 x 3744
Troy Piggins - 20 Aug 2007 08:54 GMT
* Annika1980 is quoted & my replies are inline below :
> I am trying to do a comparison of the relative image size between my
> 8.2MP Canon 20D, the 10.1MP 40D, and the new 21.1MP 1DsMKIII.  I came
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 40D:  3888 x 2592
> 1DsMK3:  5616 x 3744

As I understand the "crop factor", it comes from the 20D/30D/40D
sensor being (approx) 1.6x smaller in width and height than a
full-frame sensor.  So when using the same lens at same focal
length, it only captures the middle of the image that a FF sensor
would.

I'm not sure what your comparison is supposed to be showing.

If it's field of view for the same focal length, the first 2
cameras have the same crop factor so should appear the same, and
the third pic should have a wider and higher field of view by 1.6
times.  That's assuming the images on your page are all scaled to
the same image size.

While the 20D and 40D have the same crop factor, the 40D's denser
pixels would allow it to be printed at a larger size for the same
quality print by 3888/3504=1.1 times (rounded).

The 1DsMK3's pixels would allow it to be printed at a larger size
again for the same quality print by 5616/3504=1.6 times that of
the 20D, but because of the crop factor the image will be a wider
field of view by 1.6 times.

So I think what it boils down to is that for prints of the same
quality, same focal length, the 1DsMK3 will give a 1.6 times
bigger print, but if you measured, say, the birds head it would
be the same size in both prints.

For the 40D you'd get a print size 10% bigger than the 20D, and
the bird's head would be 10% bigger also, because it has the same
crop factor.

That's my long-winded take on it all.

Signature

Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

D_Mac - 20 Aug 2007 10:59 GMT
> * Annika1980 is quoted & my replies are inline below :
>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
> always learning and appreciate feedback.

It's the increase by percentage that levels it all. In reality 10% is
no big deal... It's (its) the rest of the package that makes it worth
considering.

Doug
Annika1980 - 20 Aug 2007 17:08 GMT
> I'm not sure what your comparison is supposed to be showing.

Here's the situation. Let's say I am a given distance from a
hummingbird with a given lens (in this case the 400 f/5.6L).   I
wanted to know how big the image would appear on the screen with both
cameras.  As it turns out the image size (of the hummingbird) produced
by the 1DsMKIII is almost exactly the same size as the 20D and
slightly smaller than what the 40D would produce.

Of course if I could fill the frame with the hummingbird on each
camera then the 1DsMK3 would produce a much larger image.  Similarly,
for portrait or landscape shots where you frame what you want in
camera the larger sensor of the 1DsMK3 gives a much bigger image with
more detail.  But when you are shooting small birds at a distance and
you already have your zoom maxed out, that's when the 1.6x crop factor
is your friend.
Eric Miller - 20 Aug 2007 22:12 GMT
>> I'm not sure what your comparison is supposed to be showing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> you already have your zoom maxed out, that's when the 1.6x crop factor
> is your friend.

The pixel density is your real friend, not the crop factor. A D30 had the
same crop factor but not the same pixel density.

For hummingbirds, go with more pixels: you can always just get closer and
fill the frame (put an extension tube on your 400 5.6L). AOTBE for birding,
generally, go with the highest pixel density.

Or just take multiple exposures and stitch . . . for the slower birds. ;)

Eric Miller
www.dyesscreek.com
Troy Piggins - 20 Aug 2007 22:15 GMT
* Annika1980 is quoted & my replies are inline below :

>> I'm not sure what your comparison is supposed to be showing.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> by the 1DsMKIII is almost exactly the same size as the 20D and
> slightly smaller than what the 40D would produce.

Provided you are using the same focal length and subject
distance, at 100% zoom on screen:

- the 40D image would be 10% bigger than the 20D
- the h/bird would be 10% bigger also

- the 1DsMk3 image would be 60% bigger than the 20D
- the h/bird would be the same size as the 20D

> Of course if I could fill the frame with the hummingbird on each
> camera then the 1DsMK3 would produce a much larger image.

That's what I understand.

> Similarly, for portrait or landscape shots where you frame what
> you want in camera the larger sensor of the 1DsMK3 gives a much
> bigger image with more detail.  But when you are shooting small
> birds at a distance and you already have your zoom maxed out,
> that's when the 1.6x crop factor is your friend.

Yep.

Signature

Troy Piggins
Gallery: http://piggo.com/~troy/gallery
Please feel free to provide constructive criticism on any photos I post.  I'm
always learning and appreciate feedback.

Annika1980 - 20 Aug 2007 22:44 GMT
Here's a nice article that attempts to explain everything:

http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/dslrsensors/dslrsensors.htm
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 20 Aug 2007 13:18 GMT
> I am trying to do a comparison of the relative image size between my
> 8.2MP Canon 20D, the 10.1MP 40D, and the new 21.1MP 1DsMKIII.  I came
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 40D:  3888 x 2592
> 1DsMK3:  5616 x 3744

The best math geek on the newsgroup is Wild Bill.  Perhaps he can help
you.
Helen
Walter Banks - 20 Aug 2007 14:12 GMT
Take two pictures with 20D and 1DsMK3 using the same piece
of serious glass. The center 1DsMK3 cropped to 1.6 of the
original image with give you an image of 3510 by 2340. Dead heat
with the 20D. Looks to me like same pixel density . The only
question is $8K worth it to fill out the frame.

w..

> I am trying to do a comparison of the relative image size between my
> 8.2MP Canon 20D, the 10.1MP 40D, and the new 21.1MP 1DsMKIII.  I came
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 40D:  3888 x 2592
> 1DsMK3:  5616 x 3744
Annika1980 - 20 Aug 2007 14:54 GMT
> Take two pictures with 20D and 1DsMK3 using the same piece
> of serious glass. The center 1DsMK3 cropped to 1.6 of the
> original image with give you an image of 3510 by 2340. Dead heat
> with the 20D. Looks to me like same pixel density .

That was the calculation I came up with as well ... almost the exact
same image size as the 20D.  So if I take a photo of a hummingbird it
will be the same size on the screen with each.  Of course, the 1DsMK3
should be able to do it with less noise and truer colors. Also, I'll
get a lot more real estate at the outside of my pics, especially using
wide angle lenses.
Alan Browne - 21 Aug 2007 00:25 GMT
> I am trying to do a comparison of the relative image size between my
> 8.2MP Canon 20D, the 10.1MP 40D, and the new 21.1MP 1DsMKIII.  I came
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 40D:  3888 x 2592
> 1DsMK3:  5616 x 3744

The resolution of the Mk III and the 20D are practically identical at
156 pix/mm.  But of course the Mk III is full frame and getting a larger
scene (for the same FL).

So both images at the same distance and FL and printed (without resizing
or cropping) at a given dpi will yield the same size subject (on paper),
you can just get a larger overall image with the Mk III.

That's just another way of saying you'll need a 1.6x FL increase
everywhere to get the same subject frame at a given distance, but at 60%
higher resolution (Mk III v. 20D) allowing much larger prints.

                Mk III  D40     D20
X pixels        5616    3888    3504
Y pixels        3744    2592    2336
x mm            36      22.2    22.5
y mm            24      14.8    15
300 x           18.72   12.96   11.68   <- Print size, width, inches
300 y           12.48   8.64    7.79    <- Print size, height, inches
Pitch (pix/mm)  156     175.14  155.73

Note that the the 20D and Mk III have 155.73 and 156 pix/mm ...
practically identical.  The 40D has a higher pitch, and we'd expect that
to be a little (not much) noisier.

As to the 40D being only 10 Mpix, that's not much improvement over the
20D's 8 Mpix... about 11% in resolution.  Really not worth it if your
20D is still going strong.

You'll have to go scrounging for a 5D or 1 Ds Mk II to get a noticeable
improvement in overall detail.  Or sell your soul for a Mk III.

The other thing is the Mk III has a 14 bit A/D.  This will improve
(probably) the shadow noise even more allowing very high ISO's.  (I
assume at least that for the usual fiziks reasons it can not go to
higher DR).

And at its "natural" ISO, I'm sure it will give incipient Hasselblad H3
buyers great pause.

Cheers,
Alan.

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Annika1980 - 21 Aug 2007 01:15 GMT
> As to the 40D being only 10 Mpix, that's not much improvement over the
> 20D's 8 Mpix... about 11% in resolution.  Really not worth it if your
> 20D is still going strong.
>
> You'll have to go scrounging for a 5D or 1 Ds Mk II to get a noticeable
> improvement in overall detail.  Or sell your soul for a Mk III.

Negotiations are under way, but I'm having trouble finding prospective
buyers.

I agree that the resolution increase of the 40D over the 20D is
incremental.  With the 1DsMKIII it is monumental.  Most of the
improvements in the 40D are ergonomic and don't necessarily equate to
better pics.  The lure of the 1DsMKIII is that EVERY pic I take with
it would be better than what I'd otherwise achieve.

You know, I think it is high time for Canon to step up and do the
right thing and ship me a 1DsMKIII as repayment for all the good pub
I've given them over the years.
Alan Browne - 21 Aug 2007 02:21 GMT
>> As to the 40D being only 10 Mpix, that's not much improvement over the
>> 20D's 8 Mpix... about 11% in resolution.  Really not worth it if your
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> better pics.  The lure of the 1DsMKIII is that EVERY pic I take with
> it would be better than what I'd otherwise achieve.

You should read David Littleboy's post in rpd.slr-systems regarding
resolution limits.  While you tend to shoot fairly open apertures, he
calculates the Mk III resolution limit to hit at around f/11.  Shooting
slower apertures will result in loss of resolution through
diffraction... (OTOH, it should be identical to the 20D in this respect
as the resolution is the same).

> You know, I think it is high time for Canon to step up and do the
> right thing and ship me a 1DsMKIII as repayment for all the good pub
> I've given them over the years.

You and 1,000,000 others... aye, there's the rub.

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Annika1980 - 21 Aug 2007 15:13 GMT
> > You know, I think it is high time for Canon to step up and do the
> > right thing and ship me a 1DsMKIII as repayment for all the good pub
> > I've given them over the years.
>
> You and 1,000,000 others... aye, there's the rub.

I kinda doubt you could find a million other people who have promoted
Canon as much as I have.  There me and Reichmann and that's about it.
Alan Browne - 22 Aug 2007 00:25 GMT
>>> You know, I think it is high time for Canon to step up and do the
>>> right thing and ship me a 1DsMKIII as repayment for all the good pub
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I kinda doubt you could find a million other people who have promoted
> Canon as much as I have.  There me and Reichmann and that's about it.

Your understatement is as bold as my overstatement.

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Annika1980 - 21 Aug 2007 16:56 GMT
> As to the 40D being only 10 Mpix, that's not much improvement over the
> 20D's 8 Mpix... about 11% in resolution.  Really not worth it if your
> 20D is still going strong.
>
> You'll have to go scrounging for a 5D or 1 Ds Mk II to get a noticeable
> improvement in overall detail.  Or sell your soul for a Mk III.

Whenever I am fawning over new equipment the first thing I ask is,
"Will this help me to get better photos?"  I feel like I've been
bumping against the limits of the 20D for some time now, and I'd
probably feel the same about the 40D.  I look at the 40D as a possible
replacement for the 20D ("oops, I dropped it!") and not an upgrade
from the 20D.

It's like buying new golf equipment.  Better equipment won't turn me
into Tiger Woods, but it might help my game.  Moving to the 40D would
be like changing brands of golf balls.  It might help you a shot here
or a shot there over the course of a few rounds, but nothing drastic.
Moving to the 1DsMKIII would be like knocking 2-3 strokes off of every
round.
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 21 Aug 2007 17:53 GMT
> > As to the 40D being only 10 Mpix, that's not much improvement over the
> > 20D's 8 Mpix... about 11% in resolution.  Really not worth it if your
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Moving to the 1DsMKIII would be like knocking 2-3 strokes off of every
> round.

There's no doubt about it, it's time for the 1DsMKIII.  You have
outgrown the 20D, and the 40D for that matter.
Helen
michelo - 21 Aug 2007 20:58 GMT
>> As to the 40D being only 10 Mpix, that's not much improvement over the
>> 20D's 8 Mpix... about 11% in resolution.  Really not worth it if your
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Moving to the 1DsMKIII would be like knocking 2-3 strokes off of every
> round.

If you do, could you drop it in my camera bag? Please!

Michel
Alan Browne - 22 Aug 2007 00:24 GMT
> Whenever I am fawning over new equipment the first thing I ask is,
> "Will this help me to get better photos?"  I feel like I've been
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Moving to the 1DsMKIII would be like knocking 2-3 strokes off of every
> round.

Up to you, but if I were you I'd wait 6 months (the 40D will be cheaper
and who know what else Canon will truck out...).

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

JimKramer - 22 Aug 2007 02:21 GMT
On Aug 21, 7:24 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca>
wrote:
> > Whenever I am fawning over new equipment the first thing I ask is,
> > "Will this help me to get better photos?"  I feel like I've been
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Up to you, but if I were you I'd wait 6 months (the 40D will be cheaper
> and who know what else Canon will truck out...).

That 14mm F2.8L looks nice :-)
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.