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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / August 2007

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Lens for Digital SLR, Resolution vs. Contract, which is more important

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Einst Stein - 12 Aug 2007 06:35 GMT
I read the " Leica Lens Compendium". The author said that during the
60's, the lens went through a change in the design philosophy. The
older design that put more favor on the resilution than the contrast
moved to favor the contrast over the resolution. That might partly due
to the changes of the film's performance. Various reformulated lenses
such as Elmarit-R 35mm, Summicron-R 50mm were all reformated according
to the new critieria.

Now, in the era of digital SLR, does the digital sensor holds the same
performance requirement, that a lens's  contrast is more important
than the resolution? I wish someone can make a comparison, say between
Leica's early versoin Summicron-R 50  and the newer version, see if
the difference is larger or smaller when comparing the digital SLR vs.
the film.
Annika1980 - 12 Aug 2007 14:39 GMT
> Now, in the era of digital SLR, does the digital sensor holds the same
> performance requirement, that a lens's  contrast is more important
> than the resolution?

Personally, if I had to choose I'd take resolution over contrast.
Contrast can be manipulated after the fact. But detail that is not
captured can never be faithfully recreated, even by Super-Secret
algorithms.

I've noticed that many pics I see online taken by a Nikon DSLR have
enhanced contrast.  While it does give a punchy look, I find the lack
of shadow detail in those pics bothersome to me. I don't know whether
the contrasty images are due to the Nikon lenses, the body, or some
choice the photographer made during post-processing.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 12 Aug 2007 22:14 GMT
>> Now, in the era of digital SLR, does the digital sensor holds the
>> same performance requirement, that a lens's  contrast is more
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> captured can never be faithfully recreated, even by Super-Secret
> algorithms.

I think you are confusing contrast for dynamic range.

> I've noticed that many pics I see online taken by a Nikon DSLR have
> enhanced contrast.  While it does give a punchy look, I find the lack
> of shadow detail in those pics bothersome to me. I don't know whether
> the contrasty images are due to the Nikon lenses, the body, or some
> choice the photographer made during post-processing.

There is some truth in what you say.  We can rule out Nikkor lenses since
they produce some of the sweetest images you ever want to see when mounted
on a Canon body.  This is why most serious photographers that are passionate
about obtaining the very best image quality carry six Nikkor-EOS adapters to
use with their favorite lenses.  The other issue you overlook is Nikon has
chosen to keep in-camera processing down to a minimum to give the
photographer more leeway to process the image to their standards.  Unlike
Canon, which uses very aggressive noise reduction, and other algorithms that
result in a plastic like lifeless image right out of the camera.

Fortunately, using Nikkors on an EOS body provides such a great image to the
sensor that it nullifies Canon's aggressive processing.  I guess the bottom
line is Canon's L glass is so deficient that aggressive in-camera processing
is needed to mask these flaws?  Plus, the slightly better dynamic range of
the 5D makes it a better choice for the serious Nikon shooter.  And serious
Canon shooters find that using Nikkors a joy since they are no longer
plagued with back focus and "error 99" issues.

Rita
Annika1980 - 13 Aug 2007 01:55 GMT
On Aug 12, 5:14 pm, Rita ? Berkowitz <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote:
> I think you are confusing contrast for dynamic range.
> The other issue you overlook is Nikon has
> chosen to keep in-camera processing down to a minimum to give the
> photographer more leeway to process the image to their standards.  Unlike
> Canon, which uses very aggressive noise reduction, and other algorithms that
> result in a plastic like lifeless image right out of the camera.

Dude, you are full of more sh.t than a Thanksgiving turkey!
Einst Stein - 13 Aug 2007 07:13 GMT
On Aug 12, 2:14 pm, Rita ? Berkowitz <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote:
> >> Now, in the era of digital SLR, does the digital sensor holds the
> >> same performance requirement, that a lens's  contrast is more
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I think you are confusing contrast for dynamic range.

Read again what Annika1980 says. Read carefully.

> > I've noticed that many pics I see online taken by a Nikon DSLR have
> > enhanced contrast.  While it does give a punchy look, I find the lack
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Rita

Good point, you are absoutely right,
Now If you have nothing about the resolution or contrast, you can sit
down.
Tony Polson - 12 Aug 2007 15:09 GMT
>I read the " Leica Lens Compendium". The author said that during the
>60's, the lens went through a change in the design philosophy. The
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>the difference is larger or smaller when comparing the digital SLR vs.
>the film.

For all the pronouncements on the subject that you could ever wish to
read, go to:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/
Paul Furman - 12 Aug 2007 15:57 GMT
>>I read the " Leica Lens Compendium". The author said that during the
>>60's, the lens went through a change in the design philosophy. The
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> http://www.imx.nl/photo/

Isn't 'microcontrast' the same thing as resolution?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=contrast+site%3Aimx.nl&btnG=Google+Search

From the first link:

"Lens performance and image quality.

What we expect from a lens to represent our solid objects is clear: the
outlines of shapes should be reproduced with a high edge contrast and
for the definition of the fine tonal gradations or differences in
brightness we need a lens that can capture even the smallest difference
of tonality in an area. As example: the very finely differentiated
shades of brightness in a face will convey the impression of plasticity.
The lens should be capable of capturing these tonal differences without
any loss. Our lens needs high contrast at the edges of shape
delineations and high fidelity for the definition of small differences
in tones. Both aspects (edge contrast and high fidelity) are measured
with the MTF graphs and not all with resolution figures."

...

"Two lenses that have the same figures of (measured) resolution, can
differ significantly in the way this resolution is represesented. The
drop from 10 to 60 lp/mm may be quite steep in one lens and very gradual
in another. Contrast over the whole spatial ramge will drop too, but
again the rate of drop is an important parameter, which will"

"CANON FD Lens Reports By Erwin Puts
...
At 1.8 and on axis both lenses have a central disk of about 6mm radius
(12mm diameter) of high resolution and low contrast. These lenses
resolve easily 125 linepairs/mm but the contrast is very low and some
flare can be seen on axis.

In the outer zones the resolution drops to about 20 lp/mm with a higher
contrast, but now we see soft edges at the black/white borders. The lvel
of astigmatism is very low, which is a major feat. There is low
vignetting and some very small pincushion distortion.

Stopping down to f/2 and f/2.8 brings a slight improvement in contrast
and it is at f/4 that the lenses start to show a punchy performance. At
f8 we have excellent performance with high contrast, and good edge
contrast (micro contrast) over the whole image field. The FD version
shows a slight improvement in the outer zones, but overall both versions
perform identical.There is no decentring: always a good sign of
outstanding workmanship in manufacturing and quality control.

As the FL version is steel and glass, where the FD version already uses
plastics, my preference would be for the FL version, but generally both
are fine performers. There is some tendency to flare and overall
contrast is low, giving the pictures a flat and dull appearance when
uses wide open. Stopped down the perfomance is very commendable."

Hmm, OK so yeah flare reduces contrast. And yes I think that can be
fixed in post processing if the resolution is there. In fact excess
contrast is more of a problem for me usually because it causes blown
highlights & blocked shadows, except in really low contrast scenes where
post processing to normal looking contrast causes posterization.

hmm...

"At 1.2 the central disc shows a clear but low contrast image where 154
lp/mm can be easily sen. In the outer zones we see the performance drop
from 77 to 50 lp/mm and even the corners have 50 lp/mm. Amazing as it
seems to be, but this lens is wide open better than the other designs at
f/4 and smaller. The snag is that micro contrast is quite low and even
the 10 lp/mm pattern has soft edges. In practical shooting you see this
as a quite soft image when looking at finer details. You see the detail
in the mage, but it lacks the sharp delineation of outlines that give
the picture transparancy and sparkle."

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://edgehill.net
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Tony Polson - 12 Aug 2007 18:16 GMT
>>>I read the " Leica Lens Compendium". The author said that during the
>>>60's, the lens went through a change in the design philosophy. The
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Isn't 'microcontrast' the same thing as resolution?

If I could understand what Erwin Puts saying, I am sure I could tell
you.  Being as charitable as I can, I think much of his meaning gets
lost in translation between Flemish and English.
Paul Furman - 12 Aug 2007 16:04 GMT
>>I read the " Leica Lens Compendium". The author said that during the
>>60's, the lens went through a change in the design philosophy. The
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> http://www.imx.nl/photo/

This is better:
<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=contrast+resolution+site%3Aimx.nl&
btnG=Search
>

"An optical designer has, basically, a simple job. He has to assure that
the image points, recorded by the optical system and captured in
emulsion or on a digital flash card, are as small as possible. An image
point, as is well known, has two main characteristics: it has a small
core where the light cone is focussed and a wider area around the core
where some light is spread out with diminishing intensity. An image spot
then is composed of a core and a halo around it. To keep it very simple,
we may say that the designer can influence the size of the core and the
size and intensity of the halo. A larger core without any halo will give
low resolution, but a high contrast and a small core with an extended
halo will give you very fine detail, but low contrast. In real life,
this contrast-resolution dichotomy does not exist: a small spot implies
almost always a small halo around it. It is more a question of grade,
than of principle."

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://edgehill.net
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

 
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