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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / August 2007Level/Un-level Horizons
My comments are based around this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdaj/844538776/ It's no award winner, but it makes a good example for this discussion. I'll start by explaining the story behind getting this. I had just got my new GX10 and wanted to experiment. In the wee hours of the morning I was having trouble getting back to sleep so decided I'd head out to do some night photography. There was no moon so I thought I'd give the star trails a try - headed to the southern edge of town so I'd have less streetlights between me and the southern sky. Found a quiet spot that seemed to be on a bit of a hill with a good view toward the southern sky and importantly, no nearby streetlights. In the dark I couldn't properly make out the horizon, so I set the camera up, levelled the tripod and started it on a 20 minute bulb exposure. Once the shot came out, I saw the horrendously crooked horizon and figured I didn't have the tripod perfectly level, or maybe i'd moved it after I'd levelled it or some such thing (remember this was 5am in the morning, I'm not likely to be thinking straight). Anyway, today I went back to the spot in the daylight, and to my suprise, the "horizon" there is actually angled as it is in the photograph - it is actually a long, low, sloping hill. Now, given that as a general rule, horizons should be level in photographs, what do you do when the horizon isn't level? Do you tilt the camera so that the horizon becomes level in the viewfinder, potentially disrupting vertical lines? or do you keep the camera horizontal and live with the off-level horizon? or do you change depending on what you are doing, and if so what guidelines would lean you to one or the other? Personally, I think in the case of the original photo I started with, that it would work better if the camera was tilted to give a straight horizon (not that it is a good photo anyway). There are no strong verticals, so the horizon is necessary to orient the viewer. If there was a strong vertical (eg the side of a building) then I think framing would be best with the vertical kept vertical, and leave the horizon at an angle. > My comments are based around this photo: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdaj/844538776/ [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > after I'd levelled it or some such thing (remember this was 5am in the > morning, I'm not likely to be thinking straight). 5am usually is in the morning. ;-) > Anyway, today I went back to the spot in the daylight, and to my > suprise, the "horizon" there is actually angled as it is in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > depending on what you are doing, and if so what guidelines would lean > you to one or the other? Well, surely it is all about the final image. I now it sounds trite but surely if the view does not make a nice image because the horizon is not level, or any other reason, then you simply wouldn't take a picture of it? > Personally, I think in the case of the original photo I started with, > that it would work better if the camera was tilted to give a straight [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > would be best with the vertical kept vertical, and leave the horizon at > an angle. If the image works when there are other elements giving the correct references - tall buildings in the foreground against sloping foothills behind - then fine. > My comments are based around this photo: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdaj/844538776/ [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > building) then I think framing would be best with the vertical kept > vertical, and leave the horizon at an angle. If I were to look at the image without your post, I would not have thought it was a crooked horizon, it does look like a hill to me. Mick Brown > My comments are based around this photo: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdaj/844538776/ [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > framing would be best with the vertical kept vertical, and leave the > horizon at an angle. Actually, there are strong verticals in your pic - the trees. Even on the steepest of slopes, they grow vertically. Tilt the frame to get the "horizon" level and you'd have a bunch of trees leaning over. On another note, people who obsess about level horizons are, more often than not, those who can't see the wood for the trees. Technical details like level horizons, blown highlights or crushed shadows (which I see far fewer comments about, but are just as significant - technically) are just that - technical. If you're taking forensic photographs, such considerations are relevant, but if your aim is to capture compelling images, follow your instinct and emotions. You'll get better pictures. > if your aim is to capture compelling images, follow your > instinct and emotions. You'll get better pictures. Sometimes I'll intuitively, unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon & it works. More often, I just wasn't paying attention & have to fix it in photoshop. But yeah, look at the bright side, it proves I wasn't obsessing over technicalities, just absorbed in the beauty of the image and that is a good thing. Just a minor hit on quality & size when cropping to fix it.  SignaturePaul Furman Photography http://edgehill.net Bay Natives Nursery http://www.baynatives.com > Sometimes I'll ... unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon I found my pictures tilting more and more with time. The fix was putting gridded screens in all the cameras - problem gone. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in news:g%Yri.12939$rR.9004 @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net: >> Sometimes I'll ... unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon > > I found my pictures tilting more and more with time. > The fix was putting gridded screens in all the cameras > - problem gone. I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. Mick Brown > I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. Several 35mm stereo cameras had levels built in. At one time you could buy one that fit in the accessory shoe of your camera. Geoff. SignatureGeoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ >>I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. > > Several 35mm stereo cameras had levels built in. At one time you > could buy one that fit in the accessory shoe of your camera. > > Geoff. I think all the panoramic cameras have then built in, >>I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. > > Several 35mm stereo cameras had levels built in. At one time you > could buy one that fit in the accessory shoe of your camera. > > Geoff. You can still buy hot shoe levels. Search for hot shoe level on ebay and get a bunch of hits. I'd recommend a dual axis bubble type such as this bogen model at B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/263729-REG/Bogen_Manfrotto_337_337_Flash_H ot_Shoe.html I'd search for clones of that on ebay for a much better price than what B&H is selling it for. You want one that has the dual mount so that if you are shooting downward (ie copy work) the level can be mounted to accomodate that orientation. I've tried the bullseye type, didn't work well for me. And if it's not obvious, since the level can't be seen while looking through the viewfinder, you'll be working off a tripod. If you are needing/wanting to work w/o a tripod, a focus screen that has a grid is the ticket. Or if you're like me, use both. JD >>> I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'd search for clones of that on ebay for a much better price than what > B&H is selling it for. Why this is a precision piece of equipment and worth the money. Anyway here in Australia it comes under HAMA brand and is distributed by Adeal. >>>> I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Anyway here in Australia it comes under HAMA brand and is distributed by > Adeal. My Bogen 3265 grip action ball head has a bubble level built in....It seems to work fine....If I level it with the camera attached, the horizon is horizontal and goes through the center of the frame..... >> I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. > > Several 35mm stereo cameras had levels built in. At one time you > could buy one that fit in the accessory shoe of your camera. > > Geoff. Still can. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/112360-REG/Hama_HA5411_2_Axis_Flash_Hot.html > "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote >>> Sometimes I'll ... unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon.. >> I found my pictures tilting more and more with time... > I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. Bit extreme, don't you think? SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com >> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote >>>> Sometimes I'll ... unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon.. >>> I found my pictures tilting more and more with time... >> I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. > > Bit extreme, don't you think? Very, if that was the only way to get level horizons I would simply have to give up on level horizons. Scott "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote in news:oE5si.12982$rR.8714 @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net: >> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote >>>> Sometimes I'll ... unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon.. >>> I found my pictures tilting more and more with time... >> I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. > > Bit extreme, don't you think? Yeah you're right, screw the horizons, gimme a Beam!! Mick B >> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote >>>> Sometimes I'll ... unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon.. >>> I found my pictures tilting more and more with time... >> I had the same problem, I fixed it by stopping drinking while shooting. > > Bit extreme, don't you think? Nah. It's just easier to adjust the tripod if you set the bottle down for a few minutes so you can use both hands. >>> "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com> wrote >>>>> Sometimes I'll ... unknowingly, frame a crooked horizon.. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Nah. It's just easier to adjust the tripod if you set the bottle down for > a few minutes so you can use both hands. In my case, it's my left eye migrating over to the other side, like a flounder....... <snipped> Cut to the chase - if the horizon itself is level, it should be level in the photograph. If it's not ... then not. BTW, if you put paragraph breaks in there it'd be easier to read. > <snipped> > > Cut to the chase - if the horizon itself is level, it should be level in > the photograph. If it's not ... then not. > > BTW, if you put paragraph breaks in there it'd be easier to read. Mmmm, appears to be five, not enough for you? >> <snipped> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mmmm, appears to be five, not enough for you? At certain window widths, the paragraphing is hidden. There is something off in the line wrapping, or perhaps the lack of it. As to the original point, I'd much prefer that picture be cropped to straighten the horizon; in this case virtually nothing is lost that I can see in the image posted. Signaturejohn mcwilliams > My comments are based around this photo: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdaj/844538776/ I fix all my photos which don't have a level horizon in Photoshop. No matter how hard I try, the camera refuses to enable an automatic horizon adjustment feature. If the horizon is not level, nothing else matters. Jim |
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