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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / August 2007

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Rollei Infrared Film

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JimKramer - 29 Jul 2007 22:20 GMT
Anybody here have any experience with Rollei Infrared film?
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 30 Jul 2007 00:07 GMT
> Anybody here have any experience with Rollei Infrared film?

I read where it's called "THE SCALA FILM REPLACEMENT", but it posses
exceptional image quality, even better than SCALA. You don't need a
red filter for this film.  Stark ortho-type, more sensitive to blues
and greens.  It has better tonal range, sharpness and detail than
SCALA film. It renders sky darker than normal.  The film has a
polyester base which provides archival qualities, which I find
invaluable.
Personally I liked the results and was happy with it.
Helen
Tony Polson - 30 Jul 2007 20:55 GMT
>> Anybody here have any experience with Rollei Infrared film?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Personally I liked the results and was happy with it.
>Helen

Helen,

Are you sure you aren't getting confused with Rollei Slide Direct,
which is a positive black and white film designed to produce
monochrome slides?  

There is also a Rollei Infra-Red Film:
"Rollei Infra Red film is a panchromatic film with extended
sensitivity into the infra-red region for creative photography. Rated
at a nominal 400 ISO, the film is available in 35mm, 120 rollfilm and
sheet film. Use a Heliopan IR filter or dark red filter to get the
best IR effects." **

And finally, there is a Rollei Ortho25:
"Orthochromatic film (i.e. not red sensitive) ISO 25 with a spectral
sensitivity of 380-610nm. The film is capable of very high
resolutions, up to 330lp/mm, extremely sharp."  **

None of these three appears to fit the description you gave.

** descriptions quoted from:
http://www.retrophotographic.com/rollei.htm

Tony
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 30 Jul 2007 22:52 GMT
> helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Anybody here have any experience with Rollei Infrared film?
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Tony

Yes, my mistake.  Sorry Jim.  I used both films.  I checked my
notebook and it was indeed Rollei RSD I was describing to you above.
The other IR film I did enjoy very much is Rollei Infrared IR400.
Very sharp and great contrast.  Here it is compared to another IR
film.  I'm sure you have already seen this, but in case you haven't:
http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/rollei_infrared2.html
Helen
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 30 Jul 2007 23:02 GMT
On Jul 30, 5:52 pm, helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >> Anybody here have any experience with Rollei Infrared film?
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I found this very interesting.  Just scroll down to Rollei IR400.
It's very similar to what I said in the beginning:
http://www.dr5.com/filmprintout.html
Helen
JimKramer - 30 Jul 2007 23:28 GMT
On Jul 30, 6:02 pm, helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 30, 5:52 pm, helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

But it states that they have not used it to shoot IR, only "without IR
filters" :-(
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 31 Jul 2007 00:44 GMT
> On Jul 30, 6:02 pm, helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> But it states that they have not used it to shoot IR, only "without IR
> filters" :-(

Yeah, I know, sorry Jim I wasn't of much help.
Helen
Nick Fotis - 31 Jul 2007 23:00 GMT
> I found this very interesting.  Just scroll down to Rollei IR400.
> It's very similar to what I said in the beginning:
> http://www.dr5.com/filmprintout.html

I think I understand the source of our confusion.
I undertook a more careful reading of the DR5 site, and they meant that they
use this film under their generic reversal process (so, you can e.g. send
in your Tmax-100 roll and they'll make it a black&white slide, like Scala).

Definitely something to know (is there a European counterpart, to economize
a bit in postage costs?). Sounds much cheaper getting a plain 100-speed B&W
negative film (e.g. Ilford Delta 100) and have them pass it through their
reversal process.

N.F.
Nick Fotis - 30 Jul 2007 23:46 GMT
So, for me and others who liked Scala, Rollei RSD is the only replacement,
right?

At 6 ISO and below, I guess this isn't exactly what I hoped for (100 ISO at
the minimum).

That infrared film is intriguing, I may order some for my medium format
cameras...

Cheers,
N.F.
JimKramer - 31 Jul 2007 01:29 GMT
> So, for me and others who liked Scala, Rollei RSD is the only replacement,
> right?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Cheers,
> N.F.

There is a little bit on APUG, just search for "Rollei" and
"Infrared".  Several pictures to look at, but not a whole lot on
exposure :-(  The film is apparently too new.

Jim
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 31 Jul 2007 01:35 GMT
> > So, for me and others who liked Scala, Rollei RSD is the only replacement,
> > right?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Jim

I think the best way to find out Jim is to try it out yourself!  What
is a beautiful film to me may be crap to you.  Lol.
Helen
JimKramer - 31 Jul 2007 02:07 GMT
On Jul 30, 8:35 pm, helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > > So, for me and others who liked Scala, Rollei RSD is the only replacement,
> > > right?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm debating between trying the Rollei IR and some of Ilford's SFX.  I
already have a R72 filter.  Maybe I'll just get both to ease the
shipping costs.
helensilverburg@hotmail.com - 31 Jul 2007 02:16 GMT
> On Jul 30, 8:35 pm, helensilverb...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Checking out both films makes a lot of sense.
Tony Polson - 31 Jul 2007 11:14 GMT
>So, for me and others who liked Scala, Rollei RSD is the only replacement,
>right?
>
>At 6 ISO and below, I guess this isn't exactly what I hoped for (100 ISO at
>the minimum).

ISO 6 is a little conservative.  The UK agent for the film recommends
ISO 10 to 20.

But you're right, in that it is a poor substitute for the wonderful
Agfa Scala.  I have now stocked up with Scala and have over a 100 35mm
cassettes in the freezer.  I have one project to complete with Scala,
and only after that is all over shall I look at alternatives.
Nick Fotis - 31 Jul 2007 15:06 GMT
> But you're right, in that it is a poor substitute for the wonderful
> Agfa Scala.  I have now stocked up with Scala and have over a 100 35mm
> cassettes in the freezer.  I have one project to complete with Scala,
> and only after that is all over shall I look at alternatives.

It seems that there are the following 3 alternatives:
1. buy the last stock of Agfa Scala (at least, B&H has it in its catalog)
and send the exposed rolls for development outside Greece (I think there
are still 4-5 labs worldwide which still can process it)

2. buy the new Rollei RSD film, and suffer from the very low sensitivity (it
needs normal development with its chemicals, from what I can understand).

3. Learn to use film-reversal chemicals with normal black&white films.

Scenarios 2) and 3) need direct involvement (chemicals) at home (I never did
darkroom, and I don't look forward to it, due to lack of space and time -
and working with these chemicals doesn't sound exactly fun to me).

Any other ideas?

N.F.
Toni Nikkanen - 31 Jul 2007 15:30 GMT
> It seems that there are the following 3 alternatives:
> 1. buy the last stock of Agfa Scala (at least, B&H has it in its catalog)
> and send the exposed rolls for development outside Greece (I think there
> are still 4-5 labs worldwide which still can process it)

I bought some rolls a bit over a month ago from lumiere-shop.de, they
still had it in stock.  A lab in France has been suggested as a place
to develop it:

http://www.arkalab.com/index_uk.html
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 31 Jul 2007 16:10 GMT
>> But you're right, in that it is a poor substitute for the wonderful
>> Agfa Scala.  I have now stocked up with Scala and have over a 100 35mm
>> cassettes in the freezer.  I have one project to complete with Scala,
>> and only after that is all over shall I look at alternatives.

A long time ago, Kodak sold a reversal kit. I think it was for
Tri-X, but it might have been for Plus-X.  They later changed it
(at least in name) to work with T-Max. It has been discontinued,
but it may still be on a shelf somewhere.

Here is the instruction pamphlet for it:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j87/j87.pdf

http://www.photoformulary.com has one. (entire URL too long to post)

This is a complete kit, you mix up all the solutions in it and
develop your film.

Ilford has a PDF file on how to do it their film.

    http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/download.asp?n=11

You use their developers, but make some of the solutions yourself.

With some experimentation, it should work with almost any combination
of film and developers, with varying results.

KB25, whomever makes it this week, was advertised by an independent lab
a few years ago as producing better results in their Agfa Scala
processing than Scala itself.

Geoff.

Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Nicholas O. Lindan - 31 Jul 2007 20:28 GMT
> It seems that there are the following 3 alternatives:
> 1. buy the last stock of Agfa Scala
> 2. buy the new Rollei RSD film
> 3. Learn to use film-reversal chemicals
> Any other ideas?

Shoot the negative film of your choice and then contact it to
'b&w print film': the film used for making movie prints.

Eastman 5302.  About $20 for a 100ft roll.

There is a Leitz/Leica contact printer for this purpose, comes
up on ebay now and then.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Father Kodak - 03 Aug 2007 09:30 GMT
>> It seems that there are the following 3 alternatives:
>> 1. buy the last stock of Agfa Scala
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Eastman 5302.  About $20 for a 100ft roll.

Good. But where can you buy it these days?

>There is a Leitz/Leica contact printer for this purpose, comes
>up on ebay now and then.

How much does it usually sell for?  Does it require a darkroom?

Father Kodak
Peter - 03 Aug 2007 15:41 GMT
> >Shoot the negative film of your choice and then contact it to
> >'b&w print film': the film used for making movie prints.
>
> >Eastman5302.  About $20 for a 100ft roll.
>
> Good. But where can you buy it these days?

I bought mine direct from Kodak a few years back.
In theory there is a large minimum order, but I bought two
100 foot rolls for about C$14 each . Call the Kodak motion
picture film desk in your area.  I've bought super 8 films
this way recently.

<http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/wwoffices.jhtml?
id=0.1.4.15&lc=en>

You could also try a electron microscopy supply place:

<http://www.canemco.com/catalog/photo/kodak.htm>

> >There is a Leitz/Leica contact printer for this purpose, comes
> >up on ebay now and then.
>
> How much does it usually sell for?  Does it require a darkroom?

I think I paid around $20 or so including postage.  There are more
of them than there are Leica collectors interested in them.

You need a darkroom and a safelight suitable for paper.
The rather bright 0A filters are suitable for 5302, but any
safelight for enlarging paper will do fine.  The film is
about the same as #2 Kodabromide coated on film.
A regular 25 watt bulb will do for exposing the film.

You will also need a development tank, Dektol or other
paper developer, stopbath and fixer.  The grain is very
fine even with dektol.

You will also need to be very careful about dust.  I find
that part annoying.  You might decide to put the 5302
in a camera and use a slide copying arrangement to
photograph the negatives.  You will probably want to set
the meter on the camera to around 3 ASA.

Peter.
--
pirwin@ktb.net
Peter - 03 Aug 2007 16:04 GMT
> > >There is a Leitz/Leica contact printer for this purpose, comes
> > >up on ebay now and then.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I think I paid around $20 or so including postage.  There are more
> of them than there are Leica collectors interested in them.

You can search ebay with:
<http://search.ebay.ca/search/search.dll?satitle=eldia>

At the moment there are a bunch with  high buy-it-now
prices (34 Euros and up), but there is one on a real
auction. You can probably get it fairly cheaply.
Patience can be rewarded.

There was a similar printer made by or for Ilford which
has a finish similar to the Ilford Advocate camera.
It is a lot rarer than the Leitz Eldia, but may be worth
looking for. None of the Ilford printers seem to be on
Ebay at the moment, but they do crop up from time
to time.

Peter.
--
pirwin@ktb.net
Father Kodak - 12 Aug 2007 05:12 GMT
>> > >There is a Leitz/Leica contact printer for this purpose, comes
>> > >up on ebay now and then.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Peter.

Peter,

Thank you for the information.  Looking at this unit I can't quite see
how the duplication process actually works.

Can you enlighten me?

Father Kodak
Peter - 13 Aug 2007 00:07 GMT
> >> > >There is a Leitz/Leica contact printer for this purpose, comes
> >> > >up on ebay now and then.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Father Kodak

There are full instructions in most or all editions of
_The_Leica_Manual_.   Here's mine anyway:

Pop of the top lid of the Eldia to get at the two spools.
The spool with the small knob is the supply spool
and is at the right hand side next to the ratchet
for the spoket holes. (This may seem backwards, but
it is meant to work that way)  Cut the end of the film
so it will fit into the slot on the spool.  Wind on about five
feet or less of the film - emulsion side in - on the supply
spool.  The 5302 film is white and it may be a little
hard to tell which side is which, but it is wound
emulsion side in on the bulk rolls.  The spool should
be loaded clockwise (looking from the end with the
knob) because it feeds out counterclockwise when
loaded correctly.

You could fit up to 8 feet on the spool, but you
won't want that much because you will want to
load the film on a development reel later.  Attatch
the other end of the film to the take-up spool.
The take-up spool will wind the film emulsion
side out.  Put the reels in the Eldia and snap the
top cover back on.  This is fairly easy to do
with bright safelights, but you may need a bit
of practice before it becomes obvious.

The negative strip fits into grooves on the the hinged
cover glass.  You can adjust the framing of the
negative by holding the printer up to the safelight.
There is a red window on the back to make the light
extra safe.  Open the hinged cover glass between
exposures and turn the winding knob two clicks.
(If you are doing single frame 18x24 film-strips
with the optional mask you would only use one click.)
This works more precisely than you might think
while doing it. The frames are actually very evenly
spaced.

Print using an enlarger as light source if you have one,
a small light bulb will do if you don't.  Exposure time
will be about one stop longer than normal for enlarging paper.
You may want to bracket at first, but in time you will
get pretty good at guessing.

Develop the film in Dektol 1:1 for about 5 minutes.
You can play with developers and times to alter contrast.
It is very fine grained even in Dektol.  Fixing time can
be a little more than half that for normal negative films
with fresh fixer, but there is no harm in using your regular
fixing time.

A good B&W slide should look very contrasty and may
look pretty dark on average. You will learn what is good
by projecting them.  If you are used to looking at colour
slides you may tend to think that a good B&W slide looks
a bit over-printed and over-developed.  The proof is in the
projected image.

Peter.
--
pirwin@ktb.net
Nick Fotis - 31 Jul 2007 23:26 GMT
I found this one (has lots of links to relevant documents about reversing
b&w negatives in order to make b&w slides):

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-28678.html

(I got it from the DR5.com site).

N.F.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson - 01 Aug 2007 08:04 GMT
> I found this one (has lots of links to relevant documents about reversing
> b&w negatives in order to make b&w slides):

Back when slides where popular,many companies sold slide duplicators.
Nikon and Canon had units that went on macro lenses (real macro
flat field lenses, not close focusing zooms).

Others had fixed focus ones that included lens, extension tube, slide
mount, etc. Zoom version were also available which allowed you to
crop images.

I have seen ads a few years ago for them for digital cameras (they
went on the lens instead of the camera body), they may still be sold.

If you can find one, it may do the job for you. The results probably won't
be as good as revesal processing, but they may be good enough for you.

Another posibility is if you can still get it, the film equivalent of
enlarging paper. It's different than litho film as it is continuous
tone, not strictly  black or white. If you can only get litho film,
experimenting with film developers to force it twoard continuous tones
may do what you want.

If a 1x1.5 inch slide looks good, image what a propely made 8x10 inch
one looks like.

The advantage of doing it this way is that you don't need to decide
before you take the photograph that you want it to be a slide, you
are not limited to a specific film and processing and you have
a lot more control over the final product.

Geoff.

Signature

Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Andrew Price - 31 Jul 2007 18:37 GMT
[---]

>But you're right, in that it is a poor substitute for the wonderful
>Agfa Scala.  I have now stocked up with Scala and have over a 100 35mm
>cassettes in the freezer.

I bought the last remaining 120 format stocks of Scala in
Braunschweig, when I heard the news that Agfa had been declared
bankrupt, and it's still in my freezer - but it never occurred to me
to check on processing.  Are there still competent laboratories around
who are prepared to develop the stuff?
Tony Polson - 31 Jul 2007 20:08 GMT
>[---]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>to check on processing.  Are there still competent laboratories around
>who are prepared to develop the stuff?

Yes, there are at least four across the world, including one in
Germany.
 
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