Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / January 2007
A quick lesson on the inappropriateness of using Hotlinks to steal pictures.
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JimKramer - 17 Jan 2007 15:14 GMT Turn the volume down first!
http://www.xanga.com/InHisSteps13099/563195120/last-one-to-know.html#comment
I was going to complain to Xanga but their copyright infringement procedure was tedious and she was stupid enough to hotlink.
Grumpy Vengeful Jim
JimKramer - 17 Jan 2007 17:28 GMT > Turn the volume down first! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Grumpy Vengeful Jim See, Less then 3 hours to get results.
For those left wondering...
original stolen image http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree1.JPG
replaced image http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG
Peter Chant - 17 Jan 2007 20:08 GMT > replaced image > http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG Shh! No one tell Jim but I've hotlinked to that one...
 Signature http://www.petezilla.co.uk
wsrphoto - 20 Jan 2007 00:17 GMT > > replaced image > > http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG > > Shh! No one tell Jim but I've hotlinked to that one... I've tried to follow this thread and am totally confused. Did the original person hot link to the image or download it on their server or Website? If the former, it's not illegal and the cost of you doing business on the Internet. Look at the html code. Many Web pages hotlink to other Websites for images and stuff. Since the image is still on your Website, nothing is stolen, just not credited. And if you have an ISP charging by bandwidth, get another one because most commercial or professional Websites don't have bandwidth restrictions, it's part of their service with the ISP. If it's the latter, then yes, you have issues with them to ask them to either remove, pay for it, or credit you. If they don't then contact the ISP or Website owner.
Douglas - 20 Jan 2007 00:56 GMT If you are a Photographer, I for one, don't understand your confusion. It's true many people link to other sites and images on those sites. The real issue is the ethics and legality of such a lazy person who does this without concern.
It is a sad state of affairs when those who, once having the method explained to them are confused about it's legality. It will take a court case of mammoth cost to actually highlight this one but surely you can't be confused about someone using a Photographer's Intellectual property without their permission? The act of displaying it on your own web site is theft of IP.
That is illegal. Full stop. When I find out who the son-of-a-bitch who stole my images and flaunted the deed in this very group, actually is, I'll sue the pants off the thieving bastard.
Most here know his (several) identities but so far his actual identity has not surfaced. It will soon enough and once it happens I'll publicize the results far and wide. It seems to me we (as a community of photographers) may need to resort to vigilante action to deal with image thieves. Jim's action is mild to what I would have put. Good on you Jim... There ought to more of it. The law is hopelessly inadequate in this area.
From a purely historical perspective, some the most violent people who ever existed on this planet - those who fought in WWII - found no problem with recognizing protected rewards for inventive effort. Their children had the same (although diluted) ethical nature but now, no one seems to give a toss about anything that requires effort or skill. If they can't have it as a right, they'll just steal it. I hope you are not one of these scumbags?
 Signature Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast. http://www.photosbydouglas.com Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com
: > Shh! No one tell Jim but I've hotlinked to that one... : [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : issues with them to ask them to either remove, pay for it, or credit : you. If they don't then contact the ISP or Website owner. Scott W - 20 Jan 2007 02:01 GMT > If you are a Photographer, I for one, don't understand your confusion. It's > true many people link to other sites and images on those sites. The real [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > their permission? The act of displaying it on your own web site is theft of > IP. I really don't see how hot linking is a problem, it is easy to block hot linking if you wish to. Seems to me it is easier to simply block it rather then cry about it.
Scott
Douglas - 20 Jan 2007 03:27 GMT : > If you are a Photographer, I for one, don't understand your confusion. It's : > true many people link to other sites and images on those sites. The real [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : : Scott You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block others from using your images... It's not incidentally as easy as you make out ...but that a whole generation of people are developing an attitude that the only time anything is illegal is when your get caught doing it!
Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue?
 Signature
Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast. http://www.photosbydouglas.com Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com
Scott W - 20 Jan 2007 03:40 GMT > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block others
> from using your images... It's not incidentally as easy as you make out > ...but that a whole generation of people are developing an attitude that the > only time anything is illegal is when your get caught doing it! > > Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's > rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue? Well the subject of this thread is dealing with hotlinking, and that is easy to block. Scott
Lionel - 20 Jan 2007 06:01 GMT > > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block >others [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's >> rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue?
>Well the subject of this thread is dealing with hotlinking, and that is >easy to block. It's also easy to keep people from burgling your house by keeping all the doors locked, but leaving it unlocked doesn't make it any less illegal or immoral to burgle it.
Scott W - 20 Jan 2007 06:25 GMT > > > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block > >others [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the doors locked, but leaving it unlocked doesn't make it any less > illegal or immoral to burgle it. Not blocking hot links would be more like leaving the door open, not just unlocked.
As for stealing BW I am not worried I have 2,500 GBytes/month. Even a 1 MB image would have to be downloaded 2,500,000 times a month to be a problem.
If you are someone who is worried about either your image or your BW then block hot links.
You can rant against the world or take about 5 minutes and solve the problem for good.
Scott
Douglas - 20 Jan 2007 08:59 GMT So by your refusal to say wether you support image thieves or not, one can only assume you support them... Is that your message of the day?
: > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block : others [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : : Scott John McWilliams - 20 Jan 2007 17:29 GMT > So by your refusal to say wether you support image thieves or not, one can > only assume you support them... Is that your message of the day? Please don't top post, Doug.
And, where in the world did this come from???
 Signature lsmft
wsrphoto - 21 Jan 2007 03:33 GMT > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block others > from using your images... It's not incidentally as easy as you make out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's > rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue? I'm the other Scott, but I think the point is it's not illegal by any set of laws that I know of in the US. And yes you can block them from hotlinking, several photo Websites do this using either flash or disguised filenames to scripts, a database and photo directory. It prevents the save to disk option with PC's and Mac's and hotlinking directly to the image file, but not preventable from downloading once you sort out their structure, scripts, and filenaming.
The ethics is questionable and depends on if they credit your images, but it's not unethical about using "your" bandwidth. An ISP charging for your Website shouldn't charge for bandwidth. I know many free ones limiit bandwidth to keep people from abusing their service, and that's understandable, but not one you're paying to host your Website, unless they're not charging enough.
I am against the attitude about the Internet content being free, whether it's music, images, books, etc. if the original artist or writer isn't getting the appropriate recognition and/or compensation (eg. music), but it's also the reality of the Internet today. If you have a Website, you can't expect everyone to behave to your values. If you don't like the situation, simply remove your images from your Website and post a note, "Available on request." But then how do you plan to showcase your work for personal, professional or commercial needs?
I don't see many commercial or professional photographers complaining about this problem.
Lionel - 20 Jan 2007 05:57 GMT >For those left wondering... > >original stolen image >http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree1.JPG Lovely shot, Jim. No wonder some turd wanted to steal it.
>replaced image >http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG Heh. A webmaster caled Jason Scott had a nice graphic on his own site that a bunch of people hot-linked to on their MySpace pages, etc. He discovered the theft when he checked his server logs to find out why his bandwidth was maxed out. His solution was similar to yours, except that instead of replacing the image with a notice like yours, he used the infamous goatse.cs photo:
He discovers the hotlinking, & someone suggests that he goatse them: <http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/000255.html>
He decides to do exactly that, with hilarious results: http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/000278.html
He too, was deluged with clueless idiots claiming that not only was it perfectly legal & moral for people to steal his bandwidth & server space for their own use, but that replacing it with the goatse image to screw them up was "hacking their site", & illegal, etc:
<http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/000279.html>
michelo - 17 Jan 2007 20:16 GMT > Turn the volume down first! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Grumpy Vengeful Jim She is probably not the only one using your pictures because they are returned by Google Images search. Google doesn't warn about copyright. Half of the people don't know what a copyright is, and the other half don't care about it anyway.
Michel
JimKramer - 17 Jan 2007 20:49 GMT > > Turn the volume down first! > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Michel Ahh, but I do, and the terms of service are plainly spelled out in the site that she was blogging to.
Again if the site had a simple way to communicate it I would have simply asked that it be taken down, but I'm not going to fuss with an hour of aggravation when I can be nasty and make a very clear point.
Ironically, if she would have asked I would have given it to be used, with a photo credit.
I donate a great deal of time and images to the local animal shelter and a local wildlife rehabilitation center.
Still Grumpy, Jim
michelo - 17 Jan 2007 21:21 GMT >> > Turn the volume down first! >> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Still Grumpy, Jim Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community. Some commercial site put a transparent copyright across each picture or at least on the side.
Michel
Paul Mitchum - 17 Jan 2007 22:50 GMT [..]
> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community. WRONG.
Doug Robbins - 18 Jan 2007 02:23 GMT Legally, no. In fact, yes. Get used to it. If you don't want images taken, don't put them up.
> [..] >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community. > > WRONG. Paul Mitchum - 18 Jan 2007 09:35 GMT > > [..] > >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Legally, no. In fact, yes. Get used to it. If you don't want images > taken, don't put them up. Legally no, and in fact, no. Why should anyone get used to having their work stolen? Do you believe that photos that end up on the cover of magazines are also 'donations to the magazine community' to be ripped off?
It's true that putting an image on the web opens it up to misuse, but that's still misuse.
This question, by the way, is answered by the Creative Commons. If you are OK with people swiping your material, just license it as belonging to the Creative Commons. <http://www.creativecommons.org/>
Doug Robbins - 19 Jan 2007 21:41 GMT The question isn't how you feel about others using your online material, but whether you can effectively stop them from doing so. In many cases, you can't. I understand about copyright and intelectual property, and agree that photographers should be paid for the use of their images, but given the nature of the internet, putting images up at usable resolutions without big defacing waterwarks will result in them sometimes being used by others. If the RIAA and MPPA can't stop copyright violation, why do you think individual photographers can?
>> > [..] >> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > are OK with people swiping your material, just license it as belonging > to the Creative Commons. <http://www.creativecommons.org/> Paul Mitchum - 19 Jan 2007 23:09 GMT > >> > [..] > >> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > nature of the internet, putting images up at usable resolutions without big > defacing waterwarks will result in them sometimes being used by others. And, as I pointed out, that would be misuse. I'm not arguing that images won't be used; I'm arguing that your attitude about it is a poor one. My material, place on a web site, is not a donation to the 'web community.' It is mine, to be used only as licensed.
> If the RIAA and MPPA can't stop copyright violation, why do you think > individual photographers can? That's my point about the attitude: Your material is yours to display and use however you want. If you've resigned yourself that your material will be copied, just go ahead and give others a blanket license to copy it in the Creative Commons. If, however, you mourn the fact that you won't be able to control where the image goes, then don't put up the image. Or, as you say, deface it. Or police its use by searching for copies from time to time.
But to assume that your image is a 'donation' simply because you chose to display it is entirely the wrong stance.
Doug Robbins - 20 Jan 2007 00:37 GMT You still miss the point. I didn't make the original claim that such images were a "donation", the poster michelo did. I understand that such appropriations of your image are not ethical or legal, and that you retain the "right" to control the use of your images. My point, at the risk of being repetitious, is that they will in many cases be used without permission. No one has the right to take my car, but if I leave it unlocked with the keys in the ignition, sooner or later, someone will.
Doug.
>> >> > [..] >> >> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > But to assume that your image is a 'donation' simply because you chose > to display it is entirely the wrong stance. michelo - 20 Jan 2007 03:21 GMT >>> >> > [..] >>> >> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Doug. I've have the same point of view as Doug. (But I'm not sure if my English is as understandable.)
The fact that we can't really sue the guy on the other side of the world makes it LIKE a donation to the WEB community. A business with assigned layer could always estimate lost revenues, locate and sue a solvable guy.
Michel
JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 02:40 GMT > >> > Turn the volume down first! > >> > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Michel Interestingly enough, I and many people like me feel differently. She not only used the image, she also stole the bandwidth that I pay for. She is a thief.
michelo - 18 Jan 2007 13:37 GMT >> >> > Turn the volume down first! >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > not only used the image, she also stole the bandwidth that I pay for. > She is a thief. I don't have a web site, so I didn't thought of the bandwidth problem. So if someone hotlink my shootin pictures, then you're the one again that get bandwidth stolen? :-)
Michel
JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 14:56 GMT > >> >> > Turn the volume down first! > >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Michel Actualy no. All of the Shootin pictures are hosted through PBase. They have no bandwidth restrictions on their accounts. For the record it costs US$23 a year to have the Shootin online.
Jim
Frank ess - 18 Jan 2007 03:38 GMT >>>> Turn the volume down first! >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web > community. Some malcreants and extra-extra-slows may treat it that way, but they are wrong. Your statement seems to indicate you are a member of one group or the other; which?
 Signature Frank ess
Douglas - 18 Jan 2007 03:48 GMT : >>>> Turn the volume down first! http://www.xanga.com/InHisSteps13099/563195120/last-one-to-know.html#comment
: >>>> I was going to complain to Xanga but their copyright infringement : >>>> procedure was tedious and she was stupid enough to hotlink. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] : are wrong. Your statement seems to indicate you are a member of one : group or the other; which? ----------------------------------- Odd isn't it? They do this and still expect their peers to accept them.
 Signature Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast. http://www.photosbydouglas.com Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com
Pudentame - 18 Jan 2007 23:07 GMT > Odd isn't it? They do this and still expect their peers to accept them. Their "peers" do accept them. Bottom feeders hanging together and all that ...
michelo - 18 Jan 2007 13:24 GMT >>>>> Turn the volume down first! >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > wrong. Your statement seems to indicate you are a member of one group or > the other; which? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that it is right. But been on the donator side, I’m always asking this question to myself before submitting to the Shootin. Am I accepting the chance that this particular image may be stolen and/or modified? If the answer is no, then I chose another one. (Ok before anyone uses the open door: I shouldn’t care much because nobody would want a copy of my pictures anyway.)
Did you ever receive one of those pictures of the year pps? Very nice pictures but there are no credits at all. Millions of copies were sent all over the place.
I sometime save a copy of a CNN picture, like I do cut out my newspaper. But then the advertiser next to the picture paid CNN witch paid the right to the photographer. So as long I keep it for myself I presume it is ok. Right?
Copyright is a concept mostly limited to Europe and North-America. And even there, there are illegal copies of many brands. They had to recall AA batteries here because a fake batch made it to legitimate store and could catch fire.
Michel
Doug Robbins - 18 Jan 2007 02:21 GMT She may have used your photo without permission but then you called her a whore. You are hardly acting from a position of moral superiority.
>> > Turn the volume down first! >> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Still Grumpy, Jim JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 02:50 GMT > She may have used your photo without permission but then you called her a > whore. You are hardly acting from a position of moral superiority. She stole it, plain and simple.
I suggest you learn how to read. I said nothing about her other than she is a thief.
I simply replaced a picture I had on my site with another one. Everything else is up to interpretation. Sometimes you don't steal what you think you get.
I don't need a position of moral superiority; I have righteous indigestion, that's right, righteous people who steal give me indigestion.
blackmanblues@gmail.com - 18 Jan 2007 23:57 GMT > > Turn the volume down first! > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > She is probably not the only one using your pictures because they are > returned by Google Images search. Google doesn't warn about copyright. Yes, google does warn about copyright. When you click on an image in a google image search, you'll see this message, "Image may be scaled down and subject to copyright."
Douglas - 17 Jan 2007 20:50 GMT : Turn the volume down first! http://www.xanga.com/InHisSteps13099/563195120/last-one-to-know.html#comment
: I was going to complain to Xanga but their copyright infringement : procedure was tedious and she was stupid enough to hotlink. : : Grumpy Vengeful Jim ------------------------------------- Hotlinking is (in my opinion) the most flattering way to steal your images. Take advantage of it and put your name over it or... Change the images around every few days for some fun.
For a while I used a complicated process of frames and .GIF image to obfuscate the real images I published but as my pet troll - the Aussie image thief so clearly demonstrated when I tested the system...
People with criminal minds will steal from you simply because they can. The generation of people now so complacent about theft, abuse of privileges, violence and ignorance of copyright (to name just a few of teenagers traits) have no regard for laws made to protect the wealthy while they themselves get poorer or at best, end up in a lower middle class rut.
I guess they can't grasp the time, effort and reward thing. Expecting they are "entitled to" whatever is advertised in magazines describing how to remain a virgin by having anal sex and the like...
And you though you were Grumpy? A month in traction is what you need if you want to learn what grumpy is, Jim!
 Signature
Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast. http://www.photosbydouglas.com Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 18 Jan 2007 11:45 GMT Off topic. Just rebutting Douglas' accusation.
> For a while I used a complicated process of frames and .GIF image to > obfuscate the real images I published but as my pet troll - the Aussie image > thief so clearly demonstrated when I tested the system... Every time Douglas posts this claim, I ask him to PROVE that I, or anyone, 'stole' his images for something other than 'fair use'. Unlike Jim, he has failed to do so.
I REPOSTED his images after he had *withdrawn* his own images/pages in which he: - made outlandish and untrue claims about his mythical enlarging algorithm that 'creates new detail' (his words). - fudged enlarging mathematics and claimed that images had been enlarged when they had not - claimed he had developed a new program that corrected perspective, when in fact the sample showed he had simply (and poorly) cloned parts of the image - blamed a camera for wrongly exposing his images, when the EXIF data showed he had screwed up the settings, eg reposted here: http://www.geocities.com/chrlzs/flinders-20D.htm Note that he blames the camera for underexposing, and suggests his FZ20 is far superior - but *he* chose to use partial spot-metering on some guys white pants at a beach, and then he wonders why it looks a bit underexposed. Sigh.
That example page was posted for just a few days by Douglas, then cowardly withdrawn when numerous folk pointed out Douglas' incompetence from his own EXIF data and histogram. I think that sort of behaviour stinks, and he should be more than a mouse and simply admit when he makes errors. I claim 'fair use'!!
And I'll do this sort of reposting *again*, if/when he tries it on again. Call it a public service, just like Google's caching, or the wayback machine.. You can argue to your heart's content about how it might be some sort of technical 'theft', but there is a simple moral lesson here - don't post bullshit and then hide it and pretend it never happened.
Someone has to keep the Douglases of our world honest. For what it is worth, pretty well all of my previously posted images are still up, andf I am happy to repost anything from any thread. Try that with Douglas, and you will face stony silence, especially if it is one of his embarrassing faux pas..
So, Douglas, feel free to keep bringing this up, and I'll keep reposting the rebuttal.
> I guess they can't grasp the time, effort and reward thing. Expecting they > are "entitled to" whatever is advertised in magazines describing how to > remain a virgin by having anal sex and the like... Isn't he a lovely man? (O; Did he kiss his mother with that mouth?
ShibbyShane - 18 Jan 2007 20:55 GMT > Turn the volume down first! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Grumpy Vengeful Jim How did you know she had used your picture in the first place? Do you regularly read random blogs or, I'm assuming, you found out some other way?
JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 21:15 GMT > > Turn the volume down first! > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > regularly read random blogs or, I'm assuming, you found out some other > way? The stats for my web pabes, include links from external sites...
ShibbyShane - 18 Jan 2007 23:50 GMT > > > Turn the volume down first! > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The stats for my web pabes, include links from external sites... Ah, makes sense. Do most web hosting sites do that?
JimKramer - 19 Jan 2007 00:42 GMT > > > > Turn the volume down first! > > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ah, makes sense. Do most web hosting sites do that? As far as I know. But you do have to look.
Paul Furman - 31 Jan 2007 07:40 GMT > Turn the volume down first! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Grumpy Vengeful Jim Didn't read all the replies but I have 'hot linked' before and I felt it was the more honest way of borrowing an image, with credit added in text and if the owner's site goes down, so does my hot link.... and if someone else wants to get at the original shot, they can follow the hot link to the original artist's page.
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