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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / January 2007

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A quick lesson on the inappropriateness of using Hotlinks to steal pictures.

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JimKramer - 17 Jan 2007 15:14 GMT
Turn the volume down first!

http://www.xanga.com/InHisSteps13099/563195120/last-one-to-know.html#comment

I was going to complain to Xanga but their copyright infringement
procedure was tedious and she was stupid enough to hotlink.

Grumpy Vengeful Jim
JimKramer - 17 Jan 2007 17:28 GMT
> Turn the volume down first!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Grumpy Vengeful Jim

See, Less then 3 hours to get results.

For those left wondering...

original stolen image
http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree1.JPG

replaced image
http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG
Peter Chant - 17 Jan 2007 20:08 GMT
> replaced image
> http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG

Shh!  No one tell Jim but I've hotlinked to that one...

Signature

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

wsrphoto - 20 Jan 2007 00:17 GMT
> > replaced image
> > http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG
>
> Shh!  No one tell Jim but I've hotlinked to that one...

I've tried to follow this thread and am totally confused. Did the
original person hot link to the image or download it on their server or
Website? If the former, it's not illegal and the cost of you doing
business on the Internet. Look at the html code. Many Web pages hotlink
to other Websites for images and stuff. Since the image is still on
your Website, nothing is stolen, just not credited. And if you have an
ISP charging by bandwidth, get another one because most commercial or
professional Websites don't have bandwidth restrictions, it's part of
their service with the ISP. If it's the latter, then yes, you have
issues with them to ask them to either remove, pay for it, or credit
you. If they don't then contact the ISP or Website owner.
Douglas - 20 Jan 2007 00:56 GMT
If you are a Photographer, I for one, don't understand your confusion. It's
true many people link to other sites and images on those sites. The real
issue is the ethics and legality of such a lazy person who does this without
concern.

It is a sad state of affairs when those who, once having the method
explained to them are confused about it's legality. It will take a court
case of mammoth cost to actually highlight this one but surely you can't be
confused about someone using a Photographer's Intellectual property without
their permission? The act of displaying it on your own web site is theft of
IP.

That is illegal. Full stop. When I find out who the son-of-a-bitch who stole
my images and flaunted the deed in this very group, actually is, I'll sue
the pants off the thieving bastard.

Most here know his (several) identities but so far his actual identity has
not surfaced. It will soon enough and once it happens I'll publicize the
results far and wide. It seems to me we (as a community of photographers)
may need to resort to vigilante action to deal with image thieves. Jim's
action is mild to what I would have put. Good on you Jim... There ought to
more of it. The law is hopelessly inadequate in this area.

From a purely historical perspective, some the most violent people who ever
existed on this planet - those who fought in WWII - found no problem with
recognizing protected rewards for inventive effort. Their children had the
same (although diluted) ethical nature but now, no one seems to give a toss
about anything that requires effort or skill. If they can't have it as a
right, they'll just steal it. I hope you are not one of these scumbags?

Signature

Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast.
http://www.photosbydouglas.com
Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas
http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com

: > Shh!  No one tell Jim but I've hotlinked to that one...
:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
: issues with them to ask them to either remove, pay for it, or credit
: you. If they don't then contact the ISP or Website owner.
Scott W - 20 Jan 2007 02:01 GMT
> If you are a Photographer, I for one, don't understand your confusion. It's
> true many people link to other sites and images on those sites. The real
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> their permission? The act of displaying it on your own web site is theft of
> IP.

I really don't see how hot linking is a problem, it is easy to block
hot linking if you wish to.
Seems to me it is easier to simply block it rather then cry about it.

Scott
Douglas - 20 Jan 2007 03:27 GMT
: > If you are a Photographer, I for one, don't understand your confusion. It's
: > true many people link to other sites and images on those sites. The real
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
:
: Scott

You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block others
from using your images... It's not incidentally as easy as you make out
...but that a whole generation of people are developing an attitude that the
only time anything is illegal is when your get caught doing it!

Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's
rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue?
Signature


Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast.
http://www.photosbydouglas.com
Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas
http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com

Scott W - 20 Jan 2007 03:40 GMT
> You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block
others
> from using your images... It's not incidentally as easy as you make out
> ...but that a whole generation of people are developing an attitude that the
> only time anything is illegal is when your get caught doing it!
>
> Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's
> rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue?
Well the subject of this thread is dealing with hotlinking, and that is
easy to block.

Scott
Lionel - 20 Jan 2007 06:01 GMT
> > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block
>others
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's
>> rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue?

>Well the subject of this thread is dealing with hotlinking, and that is
>easy to block.

It's also easy to keep people from burgling your house by keeping all
the doors locked, but leaving it unlocked doesn't make it any less
illegal or immoral to burgle it.
Scott W - 20 Jan 2007 06:25 GMT
> > > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block
> >others
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the doors locked, but leaving it unlocked doesn't make it any less
> illegal or immoral to burgle it.

Not blocking hot links would be more like leaving the door open, not
just unlocked.

As for stealing BW I am not worried I have 2,500 GBytes/month.  Even a
1 MB image would have to be downloaded 2,500,000 times a month to be a
problem.

If you are someone who is worried about either your image or your BW
then block hot links.

You can rant against the world or take about 5 minutes and solve the
problem for good.

Scott
Douglas - 20 Jan 2007 08:59 GMT
So by your refusal to say wether you support image thieves or not, one can
only assume you support them... Is that your message of the day?

: > You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block
: others
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
:
: Scott
John McWilliams - 20 Jan 2007 17:29 GMT
> So by your refusal to say wether you support image thieves or not, one can
> only assume you support them... Is that your message of the day?

Please don't top post, Doug.

And, where in the world did this come from???

Signature

lsmft

wsrphoto - 21 Jan 2007 03:33 GMT
> You've missed the point here Scott. It's not that it's easy to block others
> from using your images... It's not incidentally as easy as you make out
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Sometimes I wonder if you are a supporter or an abuser of Photographer's
> rights. Care to enlighten us now as to where you stand on the issue?

I'm the other Scott, but I think the point is it's not illegal by any
set of laws that I know of in the US. And yes you can block them from
hotlinking, several photo Websites do this using either flash or
disguised filenames to scripts, a database and photo directory. It
prevents the save to disk option with PC's and Mac's and hotlinking
directly to the image file, but not preventable from downloading once
you sort out their structure, scripts, and filenaming.

The ethics is questionable and depends on if they credit your images,
but it's not unethical about using "your" bandwidth. An ISP charging
for your Website shouldn't charge for bandwidth. I know many free ones
limiit bandwidth to keep people from abusing their service, and that's
understandable, but not one you're paying to host your Website, unless
they're not charging enough.

I am against the attitude about the Internet content being free,
whether it's music, images, books, etc. if the original artist or
writer isn't getting the appropriate recognition and/or compensation
(eg. music), but it's also the reality of the Internet today. If you
have a Website, you can't expect everyone to behave to your values. If
you don't like the situation, simply remove your images from your
Website and post a note, "Available on request." But then how do you
plan to showcase your work for personal, professional or commercial
needs?

I don't see many commercial or professional photographers complaining
about this problem.
Lionel - 20 Jan 2007 05:57 GMT
>For those left wondering...
>
>original stolen image
>http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree1.JPG

Lovely shot, Jim. No wonder some turd wanted to steal it.

>replaced image
>http://www.lookbefore.wading-in.net/lookbefore/Samples/IcedTree.JPG

Heh. A webmaster caled Jason Scott had a nice graphic on his own site
that a bunch of people hot-linked to on their MySpace pages, etc.
He discovered the theft when he checked his server logs to find out
why his bandwidth was maxed out. His solution was similar to yours,
except that instead of replacing the image with a notice like yours,
he used the infamous goatse.cs photo:

He discovers the hotlinking, & someone suggests that he goatse them:
<http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/000255.html>

He decides to do exactly that, with hilarious results:
http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/000278.html

He too, was deluged with clueless idiots claiming that not only was it
perfectly legal & moral for people to steal his bandwidth & server
space for their own use, but that replacing it with the goatse image
to screw them up was "hacking their site", & illegal, etc:

<http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/000279.html>
michelo - 17 Jan 2007 20:16 GMT
> Turn the volume down first!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Grumpy Vengeful Jim

She is probably not the only one using your pictures because they are
returned by Google Images search. Google doesn't warn about copyright. Half
of the people don't know what a copyright is, and the other half don't care
about it anyway.

Michel
JimKramer - 17 Jan 2007 20:49 GMT
> > Turn the volume down first!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Michel

Ahh, but I do, and the terms of service are plainly spelled out in the
site that she was blogging to.

Again if the site had a simple way to communicate it I would have
simply asked that it be taken down, but I'm not going to fuss with an
hour of aggravation when I can be nasty and make a very clear point.

Ironically, if she would have asked I would have given it to be used,
with a photo credit.

I donate a great deal of time and images to the local animal shelter
and a local wildlife rehabilitation center.

Still Grumpy, Jim
michelo - 17 Jan 2007 21:21 GMT
>> > Turn the volume down first!
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Still Grumpy, Jim

Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community. Some
commercial site put a transparent copyright across each picture or at least
on the side.

Michel
Paul Mitchum - 17 Jan 2007 22:50 GMT
[..]
> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community.

WRONG.
Doug Robbins - 18 Jan 2007 02:23 GMT
Legally, no. In fact, yes. Get used to it.  If you don't want images taken,
don't put them up.

> [..]
>> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community.
>
> WRONG.
Paul Mitchum - 18 Jan 2007 09:35 GMT
> > [..]
> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Legally, no. In fact, yes. Get used to it.  If you don't want images
> taken, don't put them up.

Legally no, and in fact, no. Why should anyone get used to having their
work stolen? Do you believe that photos that end up on the cover of
magazines are also 'donations to the magazine community' to be ripped
off?

It's true that putting an image on the web opens it up to misuse, but
that's still misuse.

This question, by the way, is answered by the Creative Commons. If you
are OK with people swiping your material, just license it as belonging
to the Creative Commons. <http://www.creativecommons.org/>
Doug Robbins - 19 Jan 2007 21:41 GMT
The question isn't how you feel about others using your online material, but
whether you can effectively stop them from doing so.  In many cases, you
can't.  I understand about copyright and intelectual property, and agree
that photographers should be paid for the use of their images, but given the
nature of the internet, putting images up at usable resolutions without big
defacing waterwarks will result in them sometimes being used by others.  If
the RIAA and MPPA can't stop copyright violation, why do you think
individual photographers can?

>> > [..]
>> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> are OK with people swiping your material, just license it as belonging
> to the Creative Commons. <http://www.creativecommons.org/>
Paul Mitchum - 19 Jan 2007 23:09 GMT
> >> > [..]
> >> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web community.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> nature of the internet, putting images up at usable resolutions without big
> defacing waterwarks will result in them sometimes being used by others.

And, as I pointed out, that would be misuse. I'm not arguing that images
won't be used; I'm arguing that your attitude about it is a poor one. My
material, place on a web site, is not a donation to the 'web community.'
It is mine, to be used only as licensed.

> If the RIAA and MPPA can't stop copyright violation, why do you think
> individual photographers can?

That's my point about the attitude: Your material is yours to display
and use however you want. If you've resigned yourself that your material
will be copied, just go ahead and give others a blanket license to copy
it in the Creative Commons. If, however, you mourn the fact that you
won't be able to control where the image goes, then don't put up the
image. Or, as you say, deface it. Or police its use by searching for
copies from time to time.

But to assume that your image is a 'donation' simply because you chose
to display it is entirely the wrong stance.
Doug Robbins - 20 Jan 2007 00:37 GMT
You still miss the point. I didn't make the original claim that such images
were a "donation", the poster michelo did.  I understand that such
appropriations of your image are not ethical or legal, and that you retain
the "right" to control the use of your images.  My point, at the risk of
being repetitious, is that they will in many cases be used without
permission.  No one has the right to take my car, but if I leave it unlocked
with the keys in the ignition, sooner or later, someone will.

Doug.

>> >> > [..]
>> >> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> But to assume that your image is a 'donation' simply because you chose
> to display it is entirely the wrong stance.
michelo - 20 Jan 2007 03:21 GMT
>>> >> > [..]
>>> >> >> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> Doug.

I've have the same point of view as Doug. (But I'm not sure if my English is
as understandable.)

The fact that we can't really sue the guy on the other side of the world
makes it LIKE a donation to the WEB community. A business with assigned
layer could always estimate lost revenues, locate and sue a solvable guy.

Michel
JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 02:40 GMT
> >> > Turn the volume down first!
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Michel

Interestingly enough, I and many people like me feel differently.  She
not only used the image, she also stole the bandwidth that I pay for.
She is a thief.
michelo - 18 Jan 2007 13:37 GMT
>> >> > Turn the volume down first!
>> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> not only used the image, she also stole the bandwidth that I pay for.
> She is a thief.

I don't have a web site, so I didn't thought of the bandwidth problem. So if
someone hotlink my shootin pictures, then you're the one again that get
bandwidth stolen? :-)

Michel
JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 14:56 GMT
> >> >> > Turn the volume down first!
> >> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Michel

Actualy no.  All of the Shootin pictures are hosted through PBase.
They have no bandwidth restrictions on their accounts.  For the record
it costs US$23 a year to have the Shootin online.

Jim
Frank ess - 18 Jan 2007 03:38 GMT
>>>> Turn the volume down first!
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Anything you put on internet becomes a donation to the web
> community.

Some malcreants and extra-extra-slows may treat it that way, but they
are wrong. Your statement seems to indicate you are a member of one
group or the other; which?

Signature

Frank ess

Douglas - 18 Jan 2007 03:48 GMT
: >>>> Turn the volume down first!

http://www.xanga.com/InHisSteps13099/563195120/last-one-to-know.html#comment

: >>>> I was going to complain to Xanga but their copyright infringement
: >>>> procedure was tedious and she was stupid enough to hotlink.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
: are wrong. Your statement seems to indicate you are a member of one
: group or the other; which?

-----------------------------------
Odd isn't it? They do this and still expect their peers to accept them.

Signature

Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast.
http://www.photosbydouglas.com
Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas
http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com

Pudentame - 18 Jan 2007 23:07 GMT
> Odd isn't it? They do this and still expect their peers to accept them.

Their "peers" do accept them. Bottom feeders hanging together and all
that ...
michelo - 18 Jan 2007 13:24 GMT
>>>>> Turn the volume down first!
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> wrong. Your statement seems to indicate you are a member of one group or
> the other; which?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that it is right. But been on the donator
side, I’m always asking this question to myself before submitting to the
Shootin. Am I accepting the chance that this particular image may be stolen
and/or modified? If the answer is no, then I chose another one. (Ok before
anyone uses the open door: I shouldn’t care much because nobody would want a
copy of my pictures anyway.)

Did you ever receive one of those pictures of the year pps? Very nice
pictures but there are no credits at all. Millions of copies were sent all
over the place.

I sometime save a copy of a CNN picture, like I do cut out my newspaper. But
then the advertiser next to the picture paid CNN witch paid the right to the
photographer. So as long I keep it for myself I presume it is ok. Right?

Copyright is a concept mostly limited to Europe and North-America. And even
there, there are illegal copies of many brands. They had to recall AA
batteries here because a fake batch made it to legitimate store and could
catch fire.

Michel
Doug Robbins - 18 Jan 2007 02:21 GMT
She may have used your photo without permission but then you called her a
whore. You are hardly acting from a position of moral superiority.

>> > Turn the volume down first!
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Still Grumpy, Jim
JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 02:50 GMT
> She may have used your photo without permission but then you called her a
> whore. You are hardly acting from a position of moral superiority.

She stole it, plain and simple.

I suggest you learn how to read. I said nothing about her other than
she is a thief.

I simply replaced a picture I had on my site with another one.
Everything else is up to interpretation.  Sometimes you don't steal
what you think you get.

I don't need a position of moral superiority; I have righteous
indigestion, that's right, righteous people who steal give me
indigestion.
blackmanblues@gmail.com - 18 Jan 2007 23:57 GMT
> > Turn the volume down first!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> She is probably not the only one using your pictures because they are
> returned by Google Images search. Google doesn't warn about copyright.

Yes, google does warn about copyright.  When you click on an image in a
google image search, you'll see this message, "Image may be scaled down
and subject to copyright."
Douglas - 17 Jan 2007 20:50 GMT
: Turn the volume down first!

http://www.xanga.com/InHisSteps13099/563195120/last-one-to-know.html#comment

: I was going to complain to Xanga but their copyright infringement
: procedure was tedious and she was stupid enough to hotlink.
:
: Grumpy Vengeful Jim

-------------------------------------
Hotlinking is (in my opinion) the most flattering way to steal your images.
Take advantage of it and put your name over it or... Change the images
around every few days for some fun.

For a while I used a complicated process of frames and .GIF image to
obfuscate the real images I published but as my pet troll - the Aussie image
thief  so clearly demonstrated when I tested the system...

People with criminal minds will steal from you simply because they can. The
generation of people now so complacent about theft, abuse of privileges,
violence and ignorance of copyright (to name just a few of teenagers traits)
have no regard for laws made to protect the wealthy while they themselves
get poorer or at best, end up in a lower middle class rut.

I guess they can't grasp the time, effort and reward thing. Expecting they
are "entitled to" whatever is advertised in magazines describing how to
remain a virgin by having anal sex and the like...

And you though you were Grumpy? A month in traction is what you need if you
want to learn what grumpy is, Jim!
Signature


Australian Wedding Photography between Kempsy, NSW and Sunshine Coast.
http://www.photosbydouglas.com
Digital photos enlarged and printed on Canvas
http://canvas.photosbydouglas.com

mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 18 Jan 2007 11:45 GMT
Off topic.  Just rebutting Douglas' accusation.

> For a while I used a complicated process of frames and .GIF image to
> obfuscate the real images I published but as my pet troll - the Aussie image
> thief  so clearly demonstrated when I tested the system...

Every time Douglas posts this claim, I ask him to PROVE that I, or
anyone, 'stole' his images for something other than 'fair use'.  Unlike
Jim, he has failed to do so.

I REPOSTED his images after he had *withdrawn* his own images/pages in
which he:
- made outlandish and untrue claims about his mythical enlarging
algorithm that 'creates new detail' (his words).
- fudged enlarging mathematics and claimed that images had been
enlarged when they had not
- claimed he had developed a new program that corrected perspective,
when in fact the sample showed he had simply (and poorly) cloned parts
of the image
- blamed a camera for wrongly exposing his images, when the EXIF data
showed he had screwed up the settings, eg reposted here:
http://www.geocities.com/chrlzs/flinders-20D.htm
Note that he blames the camera for underexposing, and suggests his FZ20
is far superior - but *he* chose to use partial spot-metering on some
guys white pants at a beach, and then he wonders why it looks a bit
underexposed.  Sigh.

That example page was posted for just a few days by Douglas, then
cowardly withdrawn when numerous folk pointed out Douglas' incompetence
from his own EXIF data and histogram.  I think that sort of behaviour
stinks, and he should be more than a mouse and simply admit when he
makes errors.  I claim 'fair use'!!

And I'll do this sort of reposting *again*, if/when he tries it on
again.  Call it a public service, just like Google's caching, or the
wayback machine..  You can argue to your heart's content about how it
might be some sort of technical 'theft', but there is a simple moral
lesson here - don't post bullshit and then hide it and pretend it never
happened.

Someone has to keep the Douglases of our world honest.  For what it is
worth, pretty well all of my previously posted images are still up,
andf I am happy to repost anything from any thread.  Try that with
Douglas, and you will face stony silence, especially if it is one of
his embarrassing faux pas..

So, Douglas, feel free to keep bringing this up, and I'll keep
reposting the rebuttal.

> I guess they can't grasp the time, effort and reward thing. Expecting they
> are "entitled to" whatever is advertised in magazines describing how to
> remain a virgin by having anal sex and the like...

Isn't he a lovely man?  (O;  Did he kiss his mother with that mouth?
ShibbyShane - 18 Jan 2007 20:55 GMT
> Turn the volume down first!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Grumpy Vengeful Jim

How did you know she had used your picture in the first place? Do you
regularly read random blogs or, I'm assuming, you found out some other
way?
JimKramer - 18 Jan 2007 21:15 GMT
> > Turn the volume down first!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> regularly read random blogs or, I'm assuming, you found out some other
> way?

The stats for my web pabes, include links from external sites...
ShibbyShane - 18 Jan 2007 23:50 GMT
> > > Turn the volume down first!
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> The stats for my web pabes, include links from external sites...

Ah, makes sense. Do most web hosting sites do that?
JimKramer - 19 Jan 2007 00:42 GMT
> > > > Turn the volume down first!
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>  Ah, makes sense. Do most web hosting sites do that?

As far as I know. But you do have to look.
Paul Furman - 31 Jan 2007 07:40 GMT
> Turn the volume down first!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Grumpy Vengeful Jim

Didn't read all the replies but I have 'hot linked' before and I felt it
was the more honest way of borrowing an image, with credit added in text
and if the owner's site goes down, so does my hot link.... and if
someone else wants to get at the original shot, they can follow the hot
link to the original artist's page.
 
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