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Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / December 2006

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For some people film makes more sense

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Graham Fountain - 22 Dec 2006 21:32 GMT
had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went
into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a
closer look and found that all the photos were .raw not .jpg, and the
consoles can't handle raw format. She had no idea what raw was and no
idea how they got that way, and no idea how to use her computer to
convert them. She was from out of town (travelled about 2 hours to get
to a lab so she could print these photos) and was absolutely desperate
to get these photos, so I agreed to have a look in photoshop and see if
I can convert them for her. Photoshop couldn't look at them either -
whatever camera they came off, photoshop couldn't pick it up. So I asked
her what camera she had, in the hope that maybe I could download a
utility off the net. She couldn't remember the brand or model. I
suggested she would have to use the software that came with the camera
to convert them from raw to jpg. This went totally over her head. She
made some comment that she would have to get her technician out to
install the camera software for her.
I couldn't help but think that this is the sort of customer that digital
has abandoned. She obviously has a high end camera - possibly a prosumer
or a DSLR. At some point she has made a setting in the camera to use raw
files, and now her photos are, for all intents and purposes, gone. We
chatted for a while and it appeared she upgraded from film to digital
because that's what everyone is doing. Unfortunately she just isn't
technical-minded enough to grasp the basic concepts. Had she produced a
few rolls of film from an auto-slr, her 2 hour drive to the nearest
photo lab would have resulted in a bunch of prints for her to look at.
As it is, she had to go home empty handed, and will have to be content
looking at her photos on the camera's screen until she works out (or a
friend works out for her) how to install the software, transfer the
photos and convert them to jpg.
Scott W - 22 Dec 2006 21:48 GMT
> had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went
> into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> friend works out for her) how to install the software, transfer the
> photos and convert them to jpg.

But then I have seen a whole role of film wasted because the person did
not set the correct ISO for the film they had loading in the camera.  I
have also seen people happily shooting not noticing that they don't
have film loaded in the camera.  And I have see people open that camera
before rewinding the film, they forgot there was film in it.

Lost images are not new to digital and I would be surprised if they
lady you were dealing with did not have the capacity to learn enough to
get photos off of her camera in the future.

If my mother can use a digital camera I figure just about anyone can.

Scott
Graham Fountain - 23 Dec 2006 09:35 GMT
> But then I have seen a whole role of film wasted because the person did
> not set the correct ISO for the film they had loading in the camera.  I
Pretty rare on practically all recent-ish SLRs or compacts that support
DX coding.
> have also seen people happily shooting not noticing that they don't
> have film loaded in the camera.  And I have see people open that camera
> before rewinding the film, they forgot there was film in it.
Most APS cameras and quite a few 35mm cameras prevent you opening the
camera when film isn't rewound. practically every APS camera I've seen,
and quite a few 35mm's also run the film in reverse - ie, wind it all
on, then wind it back in as you take photos. This prevents the roll
being lost in the case of accidental opening.

> Lost images are not new to digital
Not new, but modern film cameras have reduced the incidence.  When
digital images are lost though, they are normally totally lost. With
film there is still often some scope for some recovery. Most modern
colour films can handle an incorrect ISO setting of 2 stops either way
and still produce printable (admittedly not perfect) photographs.
>and I would be surprised if they
> lady you were dealing with did not have the capacity to learn enough to
> get photos off of her camera in the future.
I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20
years in various technology related fields (computers, digital cameras,
minilabs, electronics etc), and while there are exceptions, there is a
big chunk of the population, especially over about 35, who get totally
overwhelmed by the digital age. These people are not stupid, but having
not been brought up with technology, it is something very foreign to
them. I've actually noticed that retirees (60+) are often more
techno-savvy than people in the 35-60 age group - probably because they
have the time available to invest in learning about technology products.

> If my mother can use a digital camera I figure just about anyone can.
Once again, the capacity to learn, and the desire to learn, are two
different things.

> Scott
Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 13:48 GMT
> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> not been brought up with technology, it is something very foreign to
> them.

Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
that developed the digital age.

Scott
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2006 14:03 GMT
> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
> that developed the digital age.

Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.

Rita
Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 14:14 GMT
Rita ? Berkowitz wrote:

> > Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
> > that developed the digital age.
>
> Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.
Note I said developed, not invented.  And Tesla was far to late to have
invented it, that would more likely go to Charles Babage.

Scott
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2006 21:29 GMT
>>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the
>>> one that developed the digital age.
>>
>> Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.
> Note I said developed, not invented.  And Tesla was far to late to
> have invented it, that would more likely go to Charles Babage.

Developed/invented same difference.  The topic of "digital age" is a highly
disputed one.  This will help you understand or put more fuel on the fire.

http://www.historyofthebutton.com/2006/11/27/light-switches-in-1893/

Rita
Alan Browne - 23 Dec 2006 14:41 GMT
>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
>> that developed the digital age.
>
> Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.

Rita: try reading before writing.

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John McWilliams - 23 Dec 2006 17:09 GMT
>>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
>>> that developed the digital age.
>>
>> Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.
>
> Rita: try reading before writing.

But that would wreak havoc with his posting rate....

<s>

Happy Hols to all.

==

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John McWilliams

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2006 21:28 GMT
>>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the
>>> one that developed the digital age.
>>
>> Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.
>
> Rita: try reading before writing.

Why?  It takes the fun out of Usenet.

Rita
Skip - 23 Dec 2006 20:33 GMT
>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
>> that developed the digital age.
>
> Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.

Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...)

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www.pbase.com/skipm

Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 20:40 GMT
> >> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
> >> that developed the digital age.
> >
> > Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.
>
> Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...)
Morse came after Babage

Scott.
Skip - 23 Dec 2006 21:49 GMT
Skip wrote:
> > Scott W wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...)
Morse came after Babage

Scott.

Did he?  I didn't check.

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www.pbase.com/skipm

Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 22:00 GMT
> Skip wrote:
> > > Scott W wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Did he?  I didn't check.

Looking it truns out to be close, both working in the 1830s.

Scott
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 01:20 GMT
Skip wrote:

> > > Scott W wrote:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Did he?  I didn't check.

Looking it truns out to be close, both working in the 1830s.

Scott

Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since what
he developed was a mathmatically driven computing device, Morse only was
working on a communication device, with a binary code.
As an aside, I'm not sure what Tesla had to do with it...

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Skip Middleton
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www.pbase.com/skipm

Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 01:23 GMT
> Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since what
> he developed was a mathmatically driven computing device, Morse only was
> working on a communication device, with a binary code.
> As an aside, I'm not sure what Tesla had to do with it...
I am not sure what Tesla did that was digital, but since he was born in
1856 it really does not matter.

Scott
Philip Homburg - 24 Dec 2006 11:40 GMT
>Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since what
>he developed was a mathmatically driven computing device, Morse only was
>working on a communication device, with a binary code.

Mechanical devices that performed computations using decimal numbers were
developed as early as the 17th century.

Of course that doesn't have anything to with being able to operate
computerized devices. Many young people don't actually understand
computers. But most of them can quickly learn what buttons to press to
get the desired result. For older people that will be more difficult.

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That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Skip - 24 Dec 2006 13:39 GMT
>>Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since
>>what
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> computers. But most of them can quickly learn what buttons to press to
> get the desired result. For older people that will be more difficult.

Actually there's that Greek thing I saw on History Lost and Found, dating
back to 500 B.C. or so...

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www.pbase.com/skipm

Philip Homburg - 24 Dec 2006 14:32 GMT
>Actually there's that Greek thing I saw on History Lost and Found, dating
>back to 500 B.C. or so...

But that probably wasn't decimal :-)

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That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Skip - 24 Dec 2006 17:33 GMT
Nope, worked purely by gears, it was an astronomical calculator.
Decimal would be a little hard, without a zero...heheheh.  By the way, what
did the Greeks use for numbers?  Anybody here know?  We've become used to
Roman and Arabic, but what was used before them?

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Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Matthew Winn - 25 Dec 2006 08:46 GMT
> Nope, worked purely by gears, it was an astronomical calculator.
> Decimal would be a little hard, without a zero...heheheh.  By the way, what
> did the Greeks use for numbers?  Anybody here know?

They had multiple systems. One was a bit like the Roman system using
repetition to represent numbers, while one was a more concise system
that had symbols for each digit. The latter used a 27-letter alphabet
(the normal 24 letters of Greek plus three now-obsolete letters) to
represent 1 to 9, 10 to 90 and 100 to 900; by selecting zero or one
letter from each group of nine all numbers from 1 to 999 could be
represented. For 1000 to 9000 they used a subscript or superscript
iota preceding the letters for 1 to 9. For 10000 and above they used
the myriad (represented by "M") with the corresponding letters placed
above the M.

<http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html>
has details of both systems.

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Matthew Winn
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]

Skip - 25 Dec 2006 21:23 GMT
>> Nope, worked purely by gears, it was an astronomical calculator.
>> Decimal would be a little hard, without a zero...heheheh.  By the way,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the myriad (represented by "M") with the corresponding letters placed
> above the M.

Thanks!  I've always been curious about that, but never really had the
opportunity to ask.  Kind of like when I asked my History prof what the
native (non Greek) names of Heliopolis (Egypt) and Persopolis (Persia) were,
and only got a silent stare.  He seemed to think I was just trying to stir
up trouble.  (And he probably didn't know...and I still don't.)

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:05 GMT
>>>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
>>>> that developed the digital age.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Scott.

Contemporaneous development.

Morse invented his code in 1832. Babbage invented the principle of his
analytical engine by 1834. Morse's telegraph was built and used
commercially, Babbage's analytical engine was not.
m II - 24 Dec 2006 04:16 GMT
>>>Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
>>>that developed the digital age.
>>
>>Wrong!  It was Tesla that invented the digital age.
>
> Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...)

well...the subject would seem to merit some study. Here's a start:

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole

mike II
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 05:37 GMT
> well...the subject would seem to merit some study. Here's a start:
>
> http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom
> http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole
I think Boole was too late, but I would be willing to give it to
Jacquard, until someone finds an even earlier reference.

Scott
Graham Fountain - 23 Dec 2006 20:46 GMT
>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
>> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one
> that developed the digital age.
Indeed it was, but it was the younger generation that _embraced_ the
digital age. I'm a whisker over a decade younger than you - and while
all my working career has been involved with technology items after an
electronics/computing degree at university (where we learnt cobol on
mini computers), when I consider my former classmates from school, the
majority of them have no idea. Our generation went through school with
calculators not computers (my older brothers and sisters went through
school with slide rules). Certainly not all of the 35-60 generation are
technophobic, but there is a big slice that is. Under approx 35 is the
generation who went through school with computers, and under approx 25
is the generation who were brought up knowing nothing but computers -
for these agegroups, being techno-aware seems to be inbred. For our
agegroup, being techno-aware is something that has to be learnt, and
many don't seem to want to invest the time to do that.
Scott - I know you are follow digital photography almost to the point of
it being a fanatical religion, but face it, for someone who doesn't
know, and doesn't want to know, all the intricacies of digital imaging,
yet still wants to be able to take a good, high quality photograph, it
would probably make more sense for them to use a decent film SLR -
especially if they have already been using a film SLR. It only makes
sense to change from film to digital if A) you are happy with the
quality from a basic point & shoot, or B) if you are prepared to invest
the time to learn how digital differs, and learn how to use your camera.
As a comparison - my Canon S2-IS has a mode dial and 16 buttons (not
counting the shutter button and zoom control), my K10D has 4 dials and
13 buttons.
My MZ60 film camera has 8 buttons and one rocker dial. My KR10 has one
button, and 3 dials. Apart from instant review and antishake, I can't
think of anything I actually use on the S2IS or K10D that the MZ60 can't
do. The complexity has increased, without significant functionality
increase. For someone not prepared to invest the time in learning what
all those buttons, menu functions etc do, the simpler cameras would
represent an easier way to get quality images, because lets face it, the
MZ-60 takes a photo just as good as the K10D.
Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 21:14 GMT
> Scott - I know you are follow digital photography almost to the
point of
> it being a fanatical religion, but face it, for someone who doesn't
> know, and doesn't want to know, all the intricacies of digital imaging,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> quality from a basic point & shoot, or B) if you are prepared to invest
> the time to learn how digital differs, and learn how to use your camera.

Well the majority of people have found reasons to go to digital, which
caught a lot of corporations off guard.  And there are a large number
of reasons why someone might wish to go digital and it would appear
that most people have found at least one reason that was enough for
them to make the switch.  For most people unless you are willing to
scan your own film you are somewhat at the mercy of the lab, and the
results are often not pretty. Some people simply like the instant
feedback.   Some people like to be able to post or email their photos.
Some like the fact that they are not limited to the number of photos
taken.  A lot of people just don't want to deal with taking film
through airport security.  A lot of people like that fact that they can
use an extremely small camera and still get decent photos.  To say it
would be better for someone to stay with film you would have to say
that all the possible reason that they wanted to go to digital had no
value.

>From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints
was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this
includes two people who were pretty die hard film users.  The fact is
that prints from a mini-lab often are pretty bad.

Scott
Summer Wind - 23 Dec 2006 23:47 GMT
> Well the majority of people have found reasons to go to digital, which
> caught a lot of corporations off guard.  And there are a large number
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> that all the possible reason that they wanted to go to digital had no
> value.

I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at
6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped.  P&S digital snapshot
cameras make sense at that level, but it's interesting that advanced amateur
SLR users were willing to give up the 16MP quality of 100 ISO 35mm film for
the advantages of digital at the 6MP level.  The pros entered digital
photography with high MP full-frame sensors, but advanced amateurs were
willing to settle for much less at the dawn of the digital age.  I'm still
shooting and scanning film and I have to admit that it's starting to seem
like a drag, but I like large prints and I don't want to pay for a 16MP
digital SLR and consign my perfectly functioning 35mm cameras to the closet.

SW
jeremy - 24 Dec 2006 00:02 GMT
"Summer Wind" <SummerWind@summer.com> wrote in message news:dejjh.17730

> I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at
> 6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped.  P&S digital snapshot
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> SW

I am surprised that virtually everyone that has already jumped film's ship
and gone digital has totally abandoned film photography.  Instead of adding
digital capture to their arsenal of cameras, they have dumped all the film
gear they've accumulated and loved over the years.

I never could understand that.
Summer Wind - 24 Dec 2006 00:41 GMT
> I am surprised that virtually everyone that has already jumped film's ship
> and gone digital has totally abandoned film photography.  Instead of
> adding digital capture to their arsenal of cameras, they have dumped all
> the film gear they've accumulated and loved over the years.
>
> I never could understand that.

They abandoned not only the gear, but the emulsions they loved.
Photographers who had religious zeal for Velvia dumped it without a whimper
and switched digital.

I'm having a hard time switching to digital photography, but that wasn't the
case with audio.  I worked in radio for about 25 years, but left just before
digital production became the norm.  After leaving radio, I continued to do
free-lance production at home and had no trouble putting my high-end
two-track tape decks in storage and going digital.  I never sell or throw
anything away and I still have all of my analog audio gear.  I still have
one of the first cassette tape machine models made, a Norelco that was a
Christmas present in 1960s.  I seem to have more of an emotional attachment
to film than I did to analog audio.

SW
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 01:28 GMT
> "Summer Wind" <SummerWind@summer.com> wrote in message news:dejjh.17730
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I never could understand that.

It may have something to do with not being able to find the emulsions we
loved, or to have them processed, as in the case of K64 (not to mention
K25...)  Reala, Velvia (not my favorite, but that of legions of others) a
large group of Kodak color and black and white films, all have disappeared
or are very hard to find.  I'm still mourning the loss of Panchromatic X and
Ektar25, although digital had nothing to do with the demise of those two
films.
I've kept my film gear, but find little use for it, since my 5D does pretty
much all that my 1n did, and I don't have to take the color film in for
development.  I certainly don't miss the darkroom, loved working there, but
it was in our laundry room, and the setup and teardown was a pain in the
rear, not to mention the unventilated nature of the workspace.  I didn't
even have the command dial of my A2 repaired when it finally, and
inevitably, failed.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

jeremy - 24 Dec 2006 03:36 GMT
> It may have something to do with not being able to find the emulsions we
> loved, or to have them processed, as in the case of K64 (not to mention
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I didn't even have the command dial of my A2 repaired when it finally, and
> inevitably, failed.

You are a professional photographer, and I can understand why YOU might see
digital imaging as freeing you to make more pictures.  But what about all
those amateurs that had to buy a completely new system of cameras and
lenses, and who have to deal with the prospect of having to stay on a
continual upgrade path if they are to keep up with the Joneses?

I credit it more to herd mentality.

Adding digital to one's film equipment is one thing, but I can't understand
why film has been dumped, especially in the case of guys that had a lot of
film gear already.
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 04:22 GMT
>> It may have something to do with not being able to find the emulsions we
>> loved, or to have them processed, as in the case of K64 (not to mention
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> understand why film has been dumped, especially in the case of guys that
> had a lot of film gear already.

But, you see, I made the transition _before_ I started shooting to get paid.
(I still hesitate to call myself a pro, tho' I'll concede that title to my
wife...)  And, with some systems, particularly Nikon and Canon, all that was
required was the acquisition of a new body (admittedly a much more expensive
body) that existing lenses already worked on.
As a photographer works more and more, he finds there is increasingly little
that film will do that digital won't, and there are places he/she can go
with digital that film won't let him/her go, or the trip is very, very
difficult.  As those photographers turn more and more to digital work, film
becomes less and less important, first to them, then to the suppliers.
Now, amateurs who feel driven to acquire the latest and greatest, that I'd
have to agree with you.  It's either herd mentality or something
pathological.  Especially for those guys I see posting on some of the
forums, like the 1D/1Ds/5D forum on DPReview, asking if the 5D and 135 f2L
is a good combination to photograph his kid's birthday party...or his cat.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 02:26 GMT
> I am surprised that virtually everyone that has already jumped film's ship
> and gone digital has totally abandoned film photography.  Instead of adding
> digital capture to their arsenal of cameras, they have dumped all the film
> gear they've accumulated and loved over the years.
>
> I never could understand that.

Well I think a lot of us still have our film gear but simply don't use
it, what is the point?  Film was such a huge pain to scan I for one was
delighted not to have to do that any more, well except I still have not
scanned all my old negatives.  And a lot of my old film gear works
great on my DSLR so it is not like all of it has gone to waste.

Scott
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 01:02 GMT
> I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at
> 6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped.  P&S digital snapshot
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> like a drag, but I like large prints and I don't want to pay for a 16MP
> digital SLR and consign my perfectly functioning 35mm cameras to the closet.

So do you have a good 16MP image from a 35mm film camera, I have never
seen one.
The best I have seen is an image that just matches an 8MP image, and
that is rare.

For the most part an 6MP DSLR is a good match for a 35mm camera.

Scott
Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:21 GMT
> I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at
> 6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped.  P&S digital snapshot
> cameras make sense at that level, but it's interesting that advanced amateur
> SLR users were willing to give up the 16MP quality of 100 ISO 35mm film for
> the advantages of digital at the 6MP level.  

Mainly it's to get the advantage of the SLR *lens*.
Matthew Winn - 24 Dec 2006 09:48 GMT
> Well the majority of people have found reasons to go to digital, which
> caught a lot of corporations off guard.  And there are a large number
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> through airport security.  A lot of people like that fact that they can
> use an extremely small camera and still get decent photos.

(Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and
not "most serious photographers"...)

Some of those reasons probably had an influence -- immediate feedback
and small size, for example -- but I think you're reaching a bit far
with others. Lab quality is certainly not an issue: to judge by the
blurry and unfocused images most snappers are happy to accept from
their poorly-held digital cameras the quality of a lab's work is the
least of their worries. As for airport security, I doubt many people
know about the damage X-rays can do to film, and if they think about
X-rays at all they imagine them to be some sort of magic voodoo that
allows Superman to look at Lois Lane's undies rather than a form of
penetrating ionising radiation than can damage sensitive emulsion.

I suspect that most people flocked to digital because "digital" is
a magic word that their minds interpret as "better". I know several
owners of digital cameras who opted for a digital zoom over an optical
one because it's digital so it has to be the best, right? People say
that MP3 players offer CD-quality sound because they're digital so the
quality must be perfect, mustn't it? Most people don't even know what
the word "digital" actually _means_, so they're hardly in a position
to evaluate benefits like superior resistance to X-ray damage. All
they know is that it's new and they want it, and never mind that to
get 2000 pictures on one card means a hopeless loss in quality or that
the zoom has so much distortion that it turns buildings into balloons.

I've nothing against digital, and if Nikon ever come out with a full
frame digital body that works as well with all my old manual lenses
as my FM2n and FTN (and if it's reasonably priced) then I'll certainly
get one. But let's not pretend that people are rushing to digital
because they've evaluated the advantages of each technology. Most view
the camera as a magic picture box, and all they understand about the
difference with digital photography is that when they go to get their
prints made the thing they hand over is flat and square instead of
long and round.

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Matthew Winn
[If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]

Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 11:12 GMT
> (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and
> not "most serious photographers"...)

Well most people I know are shooting nothing but digital but all the
serious photographers I know personally are shooting nothing but
digital.

If you believe that digital is being taken up mostly buy the casual
photographs and not the "serious" photographers you simply have not
been looking around.

Scott
THO - 24 Dec 2006 15:34 GMT
> > (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and
> > not "most serious photographers"...)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Scott

Scott, you're living in unusual circumstances IIRC-- Hawaii, where
you've said that film is ruined by mold within several years. Of course,
the people there would be using digital but that doesn't mean that your
experience translates to what the rest of the world is doing. There are
plenty of people using film.
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 16:00 GMT
> Scott, you're living in unusual circumstances IIRC-- Hawaii, where
> you've said that film is ruined by mold within several years. Of course,
> the people there would be using digital but that doesn't mean that your
> experience translates to what the rest of the world is doing. There are
> plenty of people using film.
Actually the serious photographers I know are pretty much on the
mainland.

And we have traveled in the mainland a lot I only saw one person using
a film SLR, sure there were a few more using film point and shoots but
the vast majority of people using SLR were using digital SLRs.

Scott
jeremy - 24 Dec 2006 17:00 GMT
> Scott, you're living in unusual circumstances IIRC-- Hawaii, where
> you've said that film is ruined by mold within several years. Of course,
> the people there would be using digital but that doesn't mean that your
> experience translates to what the rest of the world is doing. There are
> plenty of people using film.

When responding to Scott, you need to understand that, whatever the subject
under discussion, he will immediately turn it into a "digital is better than
film" argument and will always add an additional comment ridiculing you for
having not joined the rest of the herd.  His responses are predictable and
virtually scripted--to the point that one knows what he is going to say
before he even types out his posting.

It is virtually impossible to have an intelligent exchange of ideas with him
because all you will hear back is something to the effect of, "I shoot
digital.  You don't.  I'm smart.  You're stupid.  I'm up-to-date.  You're in
denial."

He is a guy that lives in a world of miniature cameras, where large format,
with its swings and tilts, doesn't exist.  He wears mental blinders when it
comes to cameras.  Only digital photos have any merit, and he is on a
crusade to correct anyone with the obviously mistaken notion that there is
anything else in this world besides digital SLRS with plastic-barreled
lenses that do not have DOF scales engraved on them.

It is frustrating reading his posts, because he is always right and you are
always wrong, and why didn't you just comprehend that right at the start?  I
killfiled him months ago, and I only see his comments now when they are
quoted in someone's else's posts.  Nothing has changed.
Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:23 GMT
>> (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and
>> not "most serious photographers"...)
>
> Well most people I know are shooting nothing but digital but all the
> serious photographers I know personally are shooting nothing but
> digital.

Well, FWIW, all of the *pros* I know shoot both.
Matthew Winn - 25 Dec 2006 08:46 GMT
> > (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and
> > not "most serious photographers"...)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> photographs and not the "serious" photographers you simply have not
> been looking around.

That wasn't what I meant. I know serious photographers are moving to
digital as well. What I was trying to say is that although people who
take photography seriously and know what they're doing are likely to
have evaluated the advantages and disadvantages of film and digital
before deciding what to do, in the more general case this isn't true.
If you include all the happy snappers, _most_ people who have switched
to digital haven't considered the pros and cons because they haven't a
clue what the pros and cons are. They've just seen digital cameras in
the shops and have thought "new, shiny, want one".

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Alan Browne - 25 Dec 2006 15:46 GMT
> If you include all the happy snappers, _most_ people who have switched
> to digital haven't considered the pros and cons because they haven't a
> clue what the pros and cons are. They've just seen digital cameras in
> the shops and have thought "new, shiny, want one".

The main advantage that appeals to happy snappers is convenience.

 .It is convenient to not need film
 .It is convenient to get instant feedback and a 2nd (nth) chance to
get it right
 .Convenient to share (e-mail, blogs, webpages)
 .Convenient to not need to develop and print
 .Convenient to not end up with boxes and boxes of underexposed, muddy
looking prints.

etc.  And the above appeals to most "real" photographers as well.

The 'con' is data management (as mentioned) but even the least
sophisticated computer users are adept at burning CD's/DVD's.  They may
not be aware of longevity issues, however.

I've shot less than a dozen rolls of 135 since I bought my digital SLR.
 Yet I've made many large prints (8 x 12 and a few 10 x 15) from the
digital images.  And that is largely sufficient unto itself.  OTOH,
nothing projects like a well saturated chrome.

I've shot more 120 than 135 since then and made 1 large print (24 x 24)
from that (to date).  More to follow.

Cheers,
Alan

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Bob Hickey - 25 Dec 2006 15:53 GMT
> >From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints
> was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Scott
>                                 So the point seems to be that the
disagreements have little to do with film vs.digital. My local hatchet shop
does a good job when given a little help. Drop off a roll of film and be
prepared for orange kids and purple lawns. But add a CD for $10, go home and
photoshop the keepers, put them on a floppy, and bring them back, and voila,
not bad at all. The thing is: a 0.15ct.  4x5 is up to $20.  Digital looks
really good now when in truth, the shots are degraded to death and can't
hold a candle to film done competently. Bob Hickey
Scott W - 25 Dec 2006 17:13 GMT
> > >From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints
> > was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> really good now when in truth, the shots are degraded to death and can't
> hold a candle to film done competently. Bob Hickey

When my wife and I were shooting film we did our own scanning and had
even better control. In addition to not getting the WB right the labs I
used would often blow the highlights.  Scanning the film and having the
digital files printed works a whole lot better.

But for the average shooter they are not going to go through this work,
and not even getting their photos put on a CD.  And for the more
advanced shooters there are good DSLR, which are very hard to match
with 35mm film.

Scott
Graham Fountain - 25 Dec 2006 22:11 GMT
>>> >From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints
>>> was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> advanced shooters there are good DSLR, which are very hard to match
> with 35mm film.
I hope you don't think I'm totally anti-digital (it has it's uses and it
is very very good at what it does), but at the same time I don't worship
it. I use both film and digital at various times. Practically all
commercial work I've done in the last 3 (maybe more) years has been
digital simply due to the speed. For my family snapshots, I use digital
almost exclusively too, and a digital P&S'er at that. I know that any
DSLR or FSLR would do better than a digital P&S, but the P&S is good
enough, and is small and compact.
However when I want something with quality, black & white, or something
that will be a "keeper", it goes onto film. As for resolution - the
current crop of 10MP DSLRs win over 35mm, no question about it. But I
can't put my finger on it, but film still looks better to my eye. Pretty
much every digital camera I've seen (and sorry Canon owners, but Canon
seem worse at it), tends to make people look plastic. On technicalities
digital wins hands down, with the only argument from me being it's
handling of highlights. Perhaps it is because it is less technically
perfect, but I still prefer the look of a film print compared to a
digital print (even when the film has been scanned before printing).

Being a part-time minilab manager, I'm finding that there are a whole
new lot of issues when it comes to printing digital, and that we do more
reprints for digital customers than we ever did for film customers
(partially offset by the fact that we do more prints fullstop, that is
something good about digital).

With film, colour balance is controlled by the machine and the operator.
Most of my operators are pretty good at picking the colour balance and
so we can get it pretty well spot on most times. We have regular
customers, some of whom have complained about our selected colour
balance in the past, and now we can compensate for them. For example
some of them prefer a warmer cast on their prints, some prefer a cooler
cast, and so now we get it "right" (iow, right according to their eye),
most times.  I even have some customers who shoot a grey card as their
first frame - in those cases it is dead easy to set WB for the first
frame and the rest of the roll is spot on.

With digital I find my most common cause of reprinting is incorrect
cropping. It's a pain in the butt that almost all digicams shoot at 4:3
while the favourite print size is 6x4 at 3:2. With 35mm film, 6x4 was
the same aspect ratio so cropping wasn't a major issue (even though we
never printed the whole neg).  Even with enlargements though, where
cropping was also present from film, we have to do more reprints because
of unexpected cropping. The simple reason was that from film, the lab
operator made the cropping decision, whereas with digital the machine
chops evenly unless the _customer_ manually crops differently. Because
the lab operator no longer has any input into these types of controls,
it isn't being controlled by someone with experience. Decisions related
to cropping, colour balance etc are now in the hand of the customer, who
in many cases doesn't understand the issues.

Our lab is set up to not do any auto-colour adjustments to digital
images. The lab up the road is using the same frontier machine, but with
different software to ours, and it does very agressive auto colour
adjustment that can't be turned off. I get customers using our lab
because they know it will print as they see it, and won't undo stuff
they've done to the image. At the same time I have people who complain
that our lab doesn't auto-correct - one customer had a wedding photo
where the dress was a mid orange because the colour cast was so bad -
the lab up the road printed it white, our lab printed it orange - until
we manually adjusted the colours. The same customer also had outdoor
shots that our lab printed correct, but the other lab printed with a
strong magenta cast, obviously compensating for the green grass. Who is
right? I think we are because we print the digital files the same as per
the file. I'm sure the lab up the road thinks they are correct because
they compensate for errors. Ideally we'd both have an option to print
as-is or with auto-adjustments, but unfortunately the software doesn't
do that, and if it did, it would be one more option to confuse customers
who think that it is already too hard.

One thing I notice more in the digital age (and really I can't
understand why), is that I see many more prints come through the lab
with blur caused by movement of the camera. Is it because digital
cameras tend to use longer shutter speeds to ensure correct exposure,
whereas many film compacts would simply under-expose? is it because the
smaller cameras are harder to hold? is it because people are shooting at
arm-length? Is it because most digicams have bigger zooms than most film
compacts? In theory, because of the faster lenses that most digi
compacts have, motion blur should be less of an issue. But then I
suppose most film compacts were used with ISO400 film, whereas digi's
tend to use ISO 64-100 (and most low-end compacts look disgusting by the
time ISO lifts to 400).  Whatever the cause, it is a common cause of
complaint about our printing, because the motion blur will show up on a
6x4, but because of the limited resolution of camera screens it's not
visible on the camera.

In summary I don't think digital is automatically better than film
simply because of the more control it offers in the printing stage. It
is only better if the customer knows colour balance better than the lab
operator. I would say comparing most of the people who post here vs most
minilab operators I've encountered that there is no doubt that the
posters here are smarter than most lab operators (even the ones I
frequently disagree with). However I think even the worst lab operators
I've encountered still have a better grasp of the basics of colour
control than a lot of the mum & dad shooters.

> Scott
Philip Homburg - 26 Dec 2006 10:02 GMT
>With digital I find my most common cause of reprinting is incorrect
>cropping. It's a pain in the butt that almost all digicams shoot at 4:3
>while the favourite print size is 6x4 at 3:2. With 35mm film, 6x4 was
>the same aspect ratio so cropping wasn't a major issue (even though we
>never printed the whole neg).  

>Our lab is set up to not do any auto-colour adjustments to digital
>images.
>Ideally we'd both have an option to print
>as-is or with auto-adjustments, but unfortunately the software doesn't
>do that, and if it did, it would be one more option to confuse customers
>who think that it is already too hard.

>But then I
>suppose most film compacts were used with ISO400 film, whereas digi's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>6x4, but because of the limited resolution of camera screens it's not
>visible on the camera.

>I would say comparing most of the people who post here vs most
>minilab operators I've encountered that there is no doubt that the
>posters here are smarter than most lab operators (even the ones I
>frequently disagree with).

I think this is something that just takes tinme to sort out. Do people
want 3:2 or do they want 4:3. But paper sizes have to match if you
to avoid problems.

The ISO problem probably is a result of people buying 10 Mpixel cameras
(with tiny sensors) and then printing 2 Mpixel images on 4x6".

At some point there will have be different workflows for different
customers ('professional', 'auto', and maybe manual correction for
the larger sized prints).

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Pudentame - 23 Dec 2006 20:58 GMT
>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
>> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Scott

My mom's in her mid 80s and she's coping with it.
jeremy - 23 Dec 2006 23:14 GMT
>>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
>>> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> My mom's in her mid 80s and she's coping with it.

WHY is everyone so obsessed with whether one woman should be "allowed" to
use a film camera?  So she didn't make the transition to digital.  Why the
attitude that she ought to endure punishment over it?

This is a film-centric newsgroup, and it has been since the beginning, yet
there are posters that continue to knock film, and film users, as though
film had no place.

The OP made a very valid point--that for some people, film was a better
choice.  And the usual suspects immediately flew out of the shadows and
began attacking the woman that couldn't figure out how to properly use her
expensive new digital camera!  As though she had it coming, or something!

Sheesh!
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 01:19 GMT
> WHY is everyone so obsessed with whether one woman should be "allowed" to
> use a film camera?  So she didn't make the transition to digital.  Why the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> began attacking the woman that couldn't figure out how to properly use her
> expensive new digital camera!  As though she had it coming, or something!
I think most of us were of the attitude that she would be bright enough
to learn how to use the camera, what yo think women aren't smart enough
to use a digital camera?

She just got the camera ran into a problem and from this we are being
told that she should just give up on digital and stick with film?

Scott
Al Denelsbeck - 24 Dec 2006 01:30 GMT
>>>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and
>>>> desire are two altogether different things. I have spent probably
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Sheesh!

       I call it the "Of course I made the right decision!" syndrome.
Quite a few photographers feel the need to convince themselves by arguing
everyone else who didn't do what they did. Insecurity at its best.

       We got to see it before with the Canon/Nikon wars, and the
Leica/Everybody wars. In their minds they're still on the playgrounds
spewing about their dad beating up everyone else's.

       Give them a cookie and send them outside to play.

    - Al.

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Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:25 GMT
>>>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
>>>> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> use a film camera?  So she didn't make the transition to digital.  Why the
> attitude that she ought to endure punishment over it?

I was only pointing out that age is not necessarily a barrier to using
newer technology.
Michael Benveniste - 24 Dec 2006 04:35 GMT
> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 years
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> people in the 35-60 age group - probably because they have the time
> available to invest in learning about technology products.

Someone who is 35 today would have been 13 when the Macintosh was
introduced.  A fair number would have used Apple II's in grammar
school, more would have used computers in high school, and still
more would use PC's in the work place.

The difference between dropping off a roll of film at the local
drugstore to be turned into 4x6" and dropping off a memory card to
do the same isn't beyond most 35-60 year olds.  But poorly trained
or unscrupulous sales people will sell people equipment that's
beyond their skill level, and well-meaning relatives will give
people cameras without walking them through their use.

All that automation that appeared in film cameras was a product
of that same digital age.  You can get the same automation in
digital cameras.  More advanced models of each offer enough
options to give the more experienced photographer more control
over the process, but also more ways to spoil the shot.  Your
customer could have gotten the wrong film camera as easily as
the wrong digital camera.

Had that customer bought too slow a film, or set the wrong ISO
for the film, given black and white film to a newbie clerk
at a minilab or simply left the lens cap on as was common in
the 1950's and 60's, those shots would have been gone forever.
Had she bought the wrong size film, she never would have gotten
the shots in the first place.  As it stands, she should eventually
get the shots she took with the digital camera.

Yes, I've forgotten to reset the ISO setting.  I've misloaded
35mm film, 127 film, 120 film, and sheet film.  I've bought
620 film instead of 120, and 120 film instead of 35mm.  I've
had APS cartridges eat my negatives.  I've had 35mm cartridges
pop open when I dropped them.  I've accidentally erased digital
images.  In every case, the problem wasn't with the camera, nor
with the digital technology.  Put the blame squarely on the
nut behind the finder.

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Bob Hickey - 24 Dec 2006 13:57 GMT
> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire
> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
> > Scott

Not sure when it happened, or when I noticed it, but at some point people
stopped thinking: they had to learn something or do something or have
something fixed. Just the thought became death to sales. Why go thru the
hassle of raising your hand to hold a cell phone, when you can simply jam
this plastic POS that looks like a giant blue question mark into your ear
and babble away to your hearts content. If the blue one doesn't work, get a
black one. If it only memorises 100 numbers, there's an upgrade coming.
Study photography? what for? the cell phone is supposed to do that. Lab?
They don't know where that is, just email 'em to some drug store and they
mail 'em back. Cool. Life is good but it's gotta be boring as hell. Gotta
be.                                                        Bob Hickey
Graham Fountain - 24 Dec 2006 15:20 GMT
> Not sure when it happened, or when I noticed it, but at some point people
> stopped thinking: they had to learn something or do something or have
> something fixed.
Spot on!!
Learning has stopped becoming a process where people research, ponder,
experiment, make mistakes, and learn from them.  Research has become
"tell me what to do", experimentation has disappeared, and mistakes have
become something that can be used as an excuse to sue someone else.
I'm not sure when people stopped thinking, but it probably happened at
about the same time people stopped taking responsibility for their own
actions.
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 17:39 GMT
> Not sure when it happened, or when I noticed it, but at some point people
> stopped thinking: they had to learn something or do something or have
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> mail 'em back. Cool. Life is good but it's gotta be boring as hell. Gotta
> be.                                                        Bob Hickey

I think it came about when commonly used articles became either less
expensive to repair than to replace, or too complex for the commoner to
repair.  Automobiles seem to have led that trend, it's cheaper to replace
the injection system than to repair it, and the electronics involved are too
complex for the guy in his garage to repair, it takes a specialist.  Common
appliances, too.  It'll cost well over $100 to fix my DVD player, or I can
just buy a new one for the same $100.
Then our cars started doing a lot of our thinking for us, antilock brakes,
stability control, reactive cruise control, we expect them to do everything,
including point themselves in the correct direction.  Our cameras got to the
point that you could put the things on "Auto," and fire away, no thought for
exposure, the camera will take care of it.  Our appliances, same thing.  Set
your dryer for "Permanent Press,"  all is good.  Set the iron for
"Delicate," it won't scorch your shirt.  So on and on.

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www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

jeremy - 23 Dec 2006 01:07 GMT
> had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went
> into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a closer
> look and found that all the photos were .raw not .jpg, and the consoles
> can't handle raw format. She had no idea what raw was and no idea how they
> got that way, and no idea how to use her computer to convert them.

You should have given her this link:

http://www.williamsphotographic.com/digital.html
Annika1980 - 23 Dec 2006 03:45 GMT
> You should have given her this link:
>
> http://www.williamsphotographic.com/digital.html

What luddite wrote that garbage?  That was about as fair and balanced
as a FOX NEWS editorial.

Here's an example of the B.S.:

"Also, to print an 8x10 on your inkjet will cost you about $4,
including paper and ink."

Dude must be using some expensive papers!
Colin_D - 23 Dec 2006 05:00 GMT
>> You should have given her this link:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Dude must be using some expensive papers!

The dude's out of date too - by five years.  Copyright 2002. A helluva
lotta water has flowed under the digital bridge since then.  Why do
people quote this ancient and irrelevant crap?

Colin D.

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Skip - 23 Dec 2006 20:35 GMT
> You should have given her this link:
>
> http://www.williamsphotographic.com/digital.html

That thing is four years out of date.  A lot has changed since 2002.

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Doug Robbins - 23 Dec 2006 16:31 GMT
I have little compassion for people who buy things they don't learn how to
use.
RTFM.

> had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went
> into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a closer
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> out for her) how to install the software, transfer the photos and convert
> them to jpg.
Graham Fountain - 23 Dec 2006 20:09 GMT
> I have little compassion for people who buy things they don't learn how to
> use.
> RTFM.
RWFM? TJOS, TKR, TKS?
Can anyone decipher? hint - this was in a Dr Dobb's journal about 15
years ago, and all centres around the meaning of F.
I agree in part though, there are a lot of people who do buy stuff,
don't read the manual, and then expect the retailer/friends/etc to solve
all their problems for them. OTOH, there are a lot of people, and I'm
sure this lady would be one of them, who would read the manual, and go
"huh?".
Philip Homburg - 24 Dec 2006 11:53 GMT
>OTOH, there are a lot of people, and I'm
>sure this lady would be one of them, who would read the manual, and go
>"huh?".

The problem is that those people don't organize themselves and make sure
that companies produce products for them. Of course that also means that
they have to be willing to pay a premium for products have fewer features.

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That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Pudentame - 23 Dec 2006 20:57 GMT
> had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went
> into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a
> closer look and found that all the photos were .raw not .jpg, and the
> consoles can't handle raw format.

>                    so I agreed to have a look in photoshop and see if
> I can convert them for her. Photoshop couldn't look at them either -
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> suggested she would have to use the software that came with the camera
> to convert them from raw to jpg.

Do you have the latest Photoshop Camera Raw? v3.6 added support for the
following:

    Canon
    EOS 400D (Rebel XTi/EOS Kiss Digital X)

    Fuji
    FinePix S6000fd
    FinePix S9100/9600

    Leica
    D-LUX 3
    Digilux 3
    V-LUX 1

    Nikon
    D80

    Olympus
    E400
    SP-510 UZ

    Panasonic
    DMC-LX2

    Pentax
    K100D
    K110D

    Samsung
    GX-1L

About the only DSLR's not supported by v3.6 are Pentax K10D (which can
use DNG as its raw format), Nikon D40 or possibly one of the newer
Digital Rebels.

Also, if you've got CS2 have you tried the CS3 Beta?
 
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