Photo Forum / Film Photography / 35 mm / December 2006
For some people film makes more sense
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Graham Fountain - 22 Dec 2006 21:32 GMT had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a closer look and found that all the photos were .raw not .jpg, and the consoles can't handle raw format. She had no idea what raw was and no idea how they got that way, and no idea how to use her computer to convert them. She was from out of town (travelled about 2 hours to get to a lab so she could print these photos) and was absolutely desperate to get these photos, so I agreed to have a look in photoshop and see if I can convert them for her. Photoshop couldn't look at them either - whatever camera they came off, photoshop couldn't pick it up. So I asked her what camera she had, in the hope that maybe I could download a utility off the net. She couldn't remember the brand or model. I suggested she would have to use the software that came with the camera to convert them from raw to jpg. This went totally over her head. She made some comment that she would have to get her technician out to install the camera software for her. I couldn't help but think that this is the sort of customer that digital has abandoned. She obviously has a high end camera - possibly a prosumer or a DSLR. At some point she has made a setting in the camera to use raw files, and now her photos are, for all intents and purposes, gone. We chatted for a while and it appeared she upgraded from film to digital because that's what everyone is doing. Unfortunately she just isn't technical-minded enough to grasp the basic concepts. Had she produced a few rolls of film from an auto-slr, her 2 hour drive to the nearest photo lab would have resulted in a bunch of prints for her to look at. As it is, she had to go home empty handed, and will have to be content looking at her photos on the camera's screen until she works out (or a friend works out for her) how to install the software, transfer the photos and convert them to jpg.
Scott W - 22 Dec 2006 21:48 GMT > had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went > into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > friend works out for her) how to install the software, transfer the > photos and convert them to jpg. But then I have seen a whole role of film wasted because the person did not set the correct ISO for the film they had loading in the camera. I have also seen people happily shooting not noticing that they don't have film loaded in the camera. And I have see people open that camera before rewinding the film, they forgot there was film in it.
Lost images are not new to digital and I would be surprised if they lady you were dealing with did not have the capacity to learn enough to get photos off of her camera in the future.
If my mother can use a digital camera I figure just about anyone can.
Scott
Graham Fountain - 23 Dec 2006 09:35 GMT > But then I have seen a whole role of film wasted because the person did > not set the correct ISO for the film they had loading in the camera. I Pretty rare on practically all recent-ish SLRs or compacts that support DX coding.
> have also seen people happily shooting not noticing that they don't > have film loaded in the camera. And I have see people open that camera > before rewinding the film, they forgot there was film in it. Most APS cameras and quite a few 35mm cameras prevent you opening the camera when film isn't rewound. practically every APS camera I've seen, and quite a few 35mm's also run the film in reverse - ie, wind it all on, then wind it back in as you take photos. This prevents the roll being lost in the case of accidental opening.
> Lost images are not new to digital Not new, but modern film cameras have reduced the incidence. When digital images are lost though, they are normally totally lost. With film there is still often some scope for some recovery. Most modern colour films can handle an incorrect ISO setting of 2 stops either way and still produce printable (admittedly not perfect) photographs.
>and I would be surprised if they > lady you were dealing with did not have the capacity to learn enough to > get photos off of her camera in the future. I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 years in various technology related fields (computers, digital cameras, minilabs, electronics etc), and while there are exceptions, there is a big chunk of the population, especially over about 35, who get totally overwhelmed by the digital age. These people are not stupid, but having not been brought up with technology, it is something very foreign to them. I've actually noticed that retirees (60+) are often more techno-savvy than people in the 35-60 age group - probably because they have the time available to invest in learning about technology products.
> If my mother can use a digital camera I figure just about anyone can. Once again, the capacity to learn, and the desire to learn, are two different things.
> Scott Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 13:48 GMT > I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire > are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not been brought up with technology, it is something very foreign to > them. Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one that developed the digital age.
Scott
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2006 14:03 GMT > Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one > that developed the digital age. Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age.
Rita
Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 14:14 GMT Rita ? Berkowitz wrote:
> > Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one > > that developed the digital age. > > Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. Note I said developed, not invented. And Tesla was far to late to have invented it, that would more likely go to Charles Babage.
Scott
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2006 21:29 GMT >>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the >>> one that developed the digital age. >> >> Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. > Note I said developed, not invented. And Tesla was far to late to > have invented it, that would more likely go to Charles Babage. Developed/invented same difference. The topic of "digital age" is a highly disputed one. This will help you understand or put more fuel on the fire.
http://www.historyofthebutton.com/2006/11/27/light-switches-in-1893/
Rita
Alan Browne - 23 Dec 2006 14:41 GMT >> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one >> that developed the digital age. > > Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. Rita: try reading before writing.
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John McWilliams - 23 Dec 2006 17:09 GMT >>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one >>> that developed the digital age. >> >> Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. > > Rita: try reading before writing. But that would wreak havoc with his posting rate....
<s>
Happy Hols to all.
==
 Signature John McWilliams
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 23 Dec 2006 21:28 GMT >>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the >>> one that developed the digital age. >> >> Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. > > Rita: try reading before writing. Why? It takes the fun out of Usenet.
Rita
Skip - 23 Dec 2006 20:33 GMT >> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one >> that developed the digital age. > > Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...)
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 20:40 GMT > >> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one > >> that developed the digital age. > > > > Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. > > Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...) Morse came after Babage
Scott.
Skip - 23 Dec 2006 21:49 GMT Skip wrote:
> > Scott W wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...) Morse came after Babage
Scott.
Did he? I didn't check.
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Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 22:00 GMT > Skip wrote: > > > Scott W wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Did he? I didn't check. Looking it truns out to be close, both working in the 1830s.
Scott
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 01:20 GMT Skip wrote:
> > > Scott W wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Did he? I didn't check. Looking it truns out to be close, both working in the 1830s.
Scott
Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since what he developed was a mathmatically driven computing device, Morse only was working on a communication device, with a binary code. As an aside, I'm not sure what Tesla had to do with it...
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 01:23 GMT > Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since what > he developed was a mathmatically driven computing device, Morse only was > working on a communication device, with a binary code. > As an aside, I'm not sure what Tesla had to do with it... I am not sure what Tesla did that was digital, but since he was born in 1856 it really does not matter.
Scott
Philip Homburg - 24 Dec 2006 11:40 GMT >Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since what >he developed was a mathmatically driven computing device, Morse only was >working on a communication device, with a binary code. Mechanical devices that performed computations using decimal numbers were developed as early as the 17th century.
Of course that doesn't have anything to with being able to operate computerized devices. Many young people don't actually understand computers. But most of them can quickly learn what buttons to press to get the desired result. For older people that will be more difficult.
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Skip - 24 Dec 2006 13:39 GMT >>Yeah, I googled him, and I'd have to concede his (Babage) status, since >>what [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > computers. But most of them can quickly learn what buttons to press to > get the desired result. For older people that will be more difficult. Actually there's that Greek thing I saw on History Lost and Found, dating back to 500 B.C. or so...
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
Philip Homburg - 24 Dec 2006 14:32 GMT >Actually there's that Greek thing I saw on History Lost and Found, dating >back to 500 B.C. or so... But that probably wasn't decimal :-)
 Signature That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 17:33 GMT Nope, worked purely by gears, it was an astronomical calculator. Decimal would be a little hard, without a zero...heheheh. By the way, what did the Greeks use for numbers? Anybody here know? We've become used to Roman and Arabic, but what was used before them?
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
Matthew Winn - 25 Dec 2006 08:46 GMT > Nope, worked purely by gears, it was an astronomical calculator. > Decimal would be a little hard, without a zero...heheheh. By the way, what > did the Greeks use for numbers? Anybody here know? They had multiple systems. One was a bit like the Roman system using repetition to represent numbers, while one was a more concise system that had symbols for each digit. The latter used a 27-letter alphabet (the normal 24 letters of Greek plus three now-obsolete letters) to represent 1 to 9, 10 to 90 and 100 to 900; by selecting zero or one letter from each group of nine all numbers from 1 to 999 could be represented. For 1000 to 9000 they used a subscript or superscript iota preceding the letters for 1 to 9. For 10000 and above they used the myriad (represented by "M") with the corresponding letters placed above the M.
<http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/Greek_numbers.html> has details of both systems.
 Signature Matthew Winn [If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]
Skip - 25 Dec 2006 21:23 GMT >> Nope, worked purely by gears, it was an astronomical calculator. >> Decimal would be a little hard, without a zero...heheheh. By the way, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the myriad (represented by "M") with the corresponding letters placed > above the M. Thanks! I've always been curious about that, but never really had the opportunity to ask. Kind of like when I asked my History prof what the native (non Greek) names of Heliopolis (Egypt) and Persopolis (Persia) were, and only got a silent stare. He seemed to think I was just trying to stir up trouble. (And he probably didn't know...and I still don't.)
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:05 GMT >>>> Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one >>>> that developed the digital age. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Scott. Contemporaneous development.
Morse invented his code in 1832. Babbage invented the principle of his analytical engine by 1834. Morse's telegraph was built and used commercially, Babbage's analytical engine was not.
m II - 24 Dec 2006 04:16 GMT >>>Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one >>>that developed the digital age. >> >>Wrong! It was Tesla that invented the digital age. > > Actually, no it was Morse... (dot, dash, the first binary code...) well...the subject would seem to merit some study. Here's a start:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole
mike II
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 05:37 GMT > well...the subject would seem to merit some study. Here's a start: > > http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom > http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9080664/George-Boole I think Boole was too late, but I would be willing to give it to Jacquard, until someone finds an even earlier reference.
Scott
Graham Fountain - 23 Dec 2006 20:46 GMT >> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire >> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Well I am 53 and I am here to tell you that our generation was the one > that developed the digital age. Indeed it was, but it was the younger generation that _embraced_ the digital age. I'm a whisker over a decade younger than you - and while all my working career has been involved with technology items after an electronics/computing degree at university (where we learnt cobol on mini computers), when I consider my former classmates from school, the majority of them have no idea. Our generation went through school with calculators not computers (my older brothers and sisters went through school with slide rules). Certainly not all of the 35-60 generation are technophobic, but there is a big slice that is. Under approx 35 is the generation who went through school with computers, and under approx 25 is the generation who were brought up knowing nothing but computers - for these agegroups, being techno-aware seems to be inbred. For our agegroup, being techno-aware is something that has to be learnt, and many don't seem to want to invest the time to do that. Scott - I know you are follow digital photography almost to the point of it being a fanatical religion, but face it, for someone who doesn't know, and doesn't want to know, all the intricacies of digital imaging, yet still wants to be able to take a good, high quality photograph, it would probably make more sense for them to use a decent film SLR - especially if they have already been using a film SLR. It only makes sense to change from film to digital if A) you are happy with the quality from a basic point & shoot, or B) if you are prepared to invest the time to learn how digital differs, and learn how to use your camera. As a comparison - my Canon S2-IS has a mode dial and 16 buttons (not counting the shutter button and zoom control), my K10D has 4 dials and 13 buttons. My MZ60 film camera has 8 buttons and one rocker dial. My KR10 has one button, and 3 dials. Apart from instant review and antishake, I can't think of anything I actually use on the S2IS or K10D that the MZ60 can't do. The complexity has increased, without significant functionality increase. For someone not prepared to invest the time in learning what all those buttons, menu functions etc do, the simpler cameras would represent an easier way to get quality images, because lets face it, the MZ-60 takes a photo just as good as the K10D.
Scott W - 23 Dec 2006 21:14 GMT > Scott - I know you are follow digital photography almost to the point of
> it being a fanatical religion, but face it, for someone who doesn't > know, and doesn't want to know, all the intricacies of digital imaging, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > quality from a basic point & shoot, or B) if you are prepared to invest > the time to learn how digital differs, and learn how to use your camera. Well the majority of people have found reasons to go to digital, which caught a lot of corporations off guard. And there are a large number of reasons why someone might wish to go digital and it would appear that most people have found at least one reason that was enough for them to make the switch. For most people unless you are willing to scan your own film you are somewhat at the mercy of the lab, and the results are often not pretty. Some people simply like the instant feedback. Some people like to be able to post or email their photos. Some like the fact that they are not limited to the number of photos taken. A lot of people just don't want to deal with taking film through airport security. A lot of people like that fact that they can use an extremely small camera and still get decent photos. To say it would be better for someone to stay with film you would have to say that all the possible reason that they wanted to go to digital had no value.
>From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this includes two people who were pretty die hard film users. The fact is that prints from a mini-lab often are pretty bad.
Scott
Summer Wind - 23 Dec 2006 23:47 GMT > Well the majority of people have found reasons to go to digital, which > caught a lot of corporations off guard. And there are a large number [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that all the possible reason that they wanted to go to digital had no > value. I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at 6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped. P&S digital snapshot cameras make sense at that level, but it's interesting that advanced amateur SLR users were willing to give up the 16MP quality of 100 ISO 35mm film for the advantages of digital at the 6MP level. The pros entered digital photography with high MP full-frame sensors, but advanced amateurs were willing to settle for much less at the dawn of the digital age. I'm still shooting and scanning film and I have to admit that it's starting to seem like a drag, but I like large prints and I don't want to pay for a 16MP digital SLR and consign my perfectly functioning 35mm cameras to the closet.
SW
jeremy - 24 Dec 2006 00:02 GMT "Summer Wind" <SummerWind@summer.com> wrote in message news:dejjh.17730
> I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at > 6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped. P&S digital snapshot [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > SW I am surprised that virtually everyone that has already jumped film's ship and gone digital has totally abandoned film photography. Instead of adding digital capture to their arsenal of cameras, they have dumped all the film gear they've accumulated and loved over the years.
I never could understand that.
Summer Wind - 24 Dec 2006 00:41 GMT > I am surprised that virtually everyone that has already jumped film's ship > and gone digital has totally abandoned film photography. Instead of > adding digital capture to their arsenal of cameras, they have dumped all > the film gear they've accumulated and loved over the years. > > I never could understand that. They abandoned not only the gear, but the emulsions they loved. Photographers who had religious zeal for Velvia dumped it without a whimper and switched digital.
I'm having a hard time switching to digital photography, but that wasn't the case with audio. I worked in radio for about 25 years, but left just before digital production became the norm. After leaving radio, I continued to do free-lance production at home and had no trouble putting my high-end two-track tape decks in storage and going digital. I never sell or throw anything away and I still have all of my analog audio gear. I still have one of the first cassette tape machine models made, a Norelco that was a Christmas present in 1960s. I seem to have more of an emotional attachment to film than I did to analog audio.
SW
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 01:28 GMT > "Summer Wind" <SummerWind@summer.com> wrote in message news:dejjh.17730 >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I never could understand that. It may have something to do with not being able to find the emulsions we loved, or to have them processed, as in the case of K64 (not to mention K25...) Reala, Velvia (not my favorite, but that of legions of others) a large group of Kodak color and black and white films, all have disappeared or are very hard to find. I'm still mourning the loss of Panchromatic X and Ektar25, although digital had nothing to do with the demise of those two films. I've kept my film gear, but find little use for it, since my 5D does pretty much all that my 1n did, and I don't have to take the color film in for development. I certainly don't miss the darkroom, loved working there, but it was in our laundry room, and the setup and teardown was a pain in the rear, not to mention the unventilated nature of the workspace. I didn't even have the command dial of my A2 repaired when it finally, and inevitably, failed.
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
jeremy - 24 Dec 2006 03:36 GMT > It may have something to do with not being able to find the emulsions we > loved, or to have them processed, as in the case of K64 (not to mention [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I didn't even have the command dial of my A2 repaired when it finally, and > inevitably, failed. You are a professional photographer, and I can understand why YOU might see digital imaging as freeing you to make more pictures. But what about all those amateurs that had to buy a completely new system of cameras and lenses, and who have to deal with the prospect of having to stay on a continual upgrade path if they are to keep up with the Joneses?
I credit it more to herd mentality.
Adding digital to one's film equipment is one thing, but I can't understand why film has been dumped, especially in the case of guys that had a lot of film gear already.
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 04:22 GMT >> It may have something to do with not being able to find the emulsions we >> loved, or to have them processed, as in the case of K64 (not to mention [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > understand why film has been dumped, especially in the case of guys that > had a lot of film gear already. But, you see, I made the transition _before_ I started shooting to get paid. (I still hesitate to call myself a pro, tho' I'll concede that title to my wife...) And, with some systems, particularly Nikon and Canon, all that was required was the acquisition of a new body (admittedly a much more expensive body) that existing lenses already worked on. As a photographer works more and more, he finds there is increasingly little that film will do that digital won't, and there are places he/she can go with digital that film won't let him/her go, or the trip is very, very difficult. As those photographers turn more and more to digital work, film becomes less and less important, first to them, then to the suppliers. Now, amateurs who feel driven to acquire the latest and greatest, that I'd have to agree with you. It's either herd mentality or something pathological. Especially for those guys I see posting on some of the forums, like the 1D/1Ds/5D forum on DPReview, asking if the 5D and 135 f2L is a good combination to photograph his kid's birthday party...or his cat.
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 02:26 GMT > I am surprised that virtually everyone that has already jumped film's ship > and gone digital has totally abandoned film photography. Instead of adding > digital capture to their arsenal of cameras, they have dumped all the film > gear they've accumulated and loved over the years. > > I never could understand that. Well I think a lot of us still have our film gear but simply don't use it, what is the point? Film was such a huge pain to scan I for one was delighted not to have to do that any more, well except I still have not scanned all my old negatives. And a lot of my old film gear works great on my DSLR so it is not like all of it has gone to waste.
Scott
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 01:02 GMT > I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at > 6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped. P&S digital snapshot [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > like a drag, but I like large prints and I don't want to pay for a 16MP > digital SLR and consign my perfectly functioning 35mm cameras to the closet. So do you have a good 16MP image from a 35mm film camera, I have never seen one. The best I have seen is an image that just matches an 8MP image, and that is rare.
For the most part an 6MP DSLR is a good match for a 35mm camera.
Scott
Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:21 GMT > I'm still surprised that digital SLRs became popular when sensors were at > 6MP, good for only an 8x10 if the image is cropped. P&S digital snapshot > cameras make sense at that level, but it's interesting that advanced amateur > SLR users were willing to give up the 16MP quality of 100 ISO 35mm film for > the advantages of digital at the 6MP level. Mainly it's to get the advantage of the SLR *lens*.
Matthew Winn - 24 Dec 2006 09:48 GMT > Well the majority of people have found reasons to go to digital, which > caught a lot of corporations off guard. And there are a large number [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > through airport security. A lot of people like that fact that they can > use an extremely small camera and still get decent photos. (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and not "most serious photographers"...)
Some of those reasons probably had an influence -- immediate feedback and small size, for example -- but I think you're reaching a bit far with others. Lab quality is certainly not an issue: to judge by the blurry and unfocused images most snappers are happy to accept from their poorly-held digital cameras the quality of a lab's work is the least of their worries. As for airport security, I doubt many people know about the damage X-rays can do to film, and if they think about X-rays at all they imagine them to be some sort of magic voodoo that allows Superman to look at Lois Lane's undies rather than a form of penetrating ionising radiation than can damage sensitive emulsion.
I suspect that most people flocked to digital because "digital" is a magic word that their minds interpret as "better". I know several owners of digital cameras who opted for a digital zoom over an optical one because it's digital so it has to be the best, right? People say that MP3 players offer CD-quality sound because they're digital so the quality must be perfect, mustn't it? Most people don't even know what the word "digital" actually _means_, so they're hardly in a position to evaluate benefits like superior resistance to X-ray damage. All they know is that it's new and they want it, and never mind that to get 2000 pictures on one card means a hopeless loss in quality or that the zoom has so much distortion that it turns buildings into balloons.
I've nothing against digital, and if Nikon ever come out with a full frame digital body that works as well with all my old manual lenses as my FM2n and FTN (and if it's reasonably priced) then I'll certainly get one. But let's not pretend that people are rushing to digital because they've evaluated the advantages of each technology. Most view the camera as a magic picture box, and all they understand about the difference with digital photography is that when they go to get their prints made the thing they hand over is flat and square instead of long and round.
 Signature Matthew Winn [If replying by mail remove the "r" from "urk"]
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 11:12 GMT > (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and > not "most serious photographers"...) Well most people I know are shooting nothing but digital but all the serious photographers I know personally are shooting nothing but digital.
If you believe that digital is being taken up mostly buy the casual photographs and not the "serious" photographers you simply have not been looking around.
Scott
THO - 24 Dec 2006 15:34 GMT > > (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and > > not "most serious photographers"...) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Scott Scott, you're living in unusual circumstances IIRC-- Hawaii, where you've said that film is ruined by mold within several years. Of course, the people there would be using digital but that doesn't mean that your experience translates to what the rest of the world is doing. There are plenty of people using film.
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 16:00 GMT > Scott, you're living in unusual circumstances IIRC-- Hawaii, where > you've said that film is ruined by mold within several years. Of course, > the people there would be using digital but that doesn't mean that your > experience translates to what the rest of the world is doing. There are > plenty of people using film. Actually the serious photographers I know are pretty much on the mainland.
And we have traveled in the mainland a lot I only saw one person using a film SLR, sure there were a few more using film point and shoots but the vast majority of people using SLR were using digital SLRs.
Scott
jeremy - 24 Dec 2006 17:00 GMT > Scott, you're living in unusual circumstances IIRC-- Hawaii, where > you've said that film is ruined by mold within several years. Of course, > the people there would be using digital but that doesn't mean that your > experience translates to what the rest of the world is doing. There are > plenty of people using film. When responding to Scott, you need to understand that, whatever the subject under discussion, he will immediately turn it into a "digital is better than film" argument and will always add an additional comment ridiculing you for having not joined the rest of the herd. His responses are predictable and virtually scripted--to the point that one knows what he is going to say before he even types out his posting.
It is virtually impossible to have an intelligent exchange of ideas with him because all you will hear back is something to the effect of, "I shoot digital. You don't. I'm smart. You're stupid. I'm up-to-date. You're in denial."
He is a guy that lives in a world of miniature cameras, where large format, with its swings and tilts, doesn't exist. He wears mental blinders when it comes to cameras. Only digital photos have any merit, and he is on a crusade to correct anyone with the obviously mistaken notion that there is anything else in this world besides digital SLRS with plastic-barreled lenses that do not have DOF scales engraved on them.
It is frustrating reading his posts, because he is always right and you are always wrong, and why didn't you just comprehend that right at the start? I killfiled him months ago, and I only see his comments now when they are quoted in someone's else's posts. Nothing has changed.
Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:23 GMT >> (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and >> not "most serious photographers"...) > > Well most people I know are shooting nothing but digital but all the > serious photographers I know personally are shooting nothing but > digital. Well, FWIW, all of the *pros* I know shoot both.
Matthew Winn - 25 Dec 2006 08:46 GMT > > (Assuming that by "most people" you really do mean "most people" and > > not "most serious photographers"...) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > photographs and not the "serious" photographers you simply have not > been looking around. That wasn't what I meant. I know serious photographers are moving to digital as well. What I was trying to say is that although people who take photography seriously and know what they're doing are likely to have evaluated the advantages and disadvantages of film and digital before deciding what to do, in the more general case this isn't true. If you include all the happy snappers, _most_ people who have switched to digital haven't considered the pros and cons because they haven't a clue what the pros and cons are. They've just seen digital cameras in the shops and have thought "new, shiny, want one".
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Alan Browne - 25 Dec 2006 15:46 GMT > If you include all the happy snappers, _most_ people who have switched > to digital haven't considered the pros and cons because they haven't a > clue what the pros and cons are. They've just seen digital cameras in > the shops and have thought "new, shiny, want one". The main advantage that appeals to happy snappers is convenience.
.It is convenient to not need film .It is convenient to get instant feedback and a 2nd (nth) chance to get it right .Convenient to share (e-mail, blogs, webpages) .Convenient to not need to develop and print .Convenient to not end up with boxes and boxes of underexposed, muddy looking prints.
etc. And the above appeals to most "real" photographers as well.
The 'con' is data management (as mentioned) but even the least sophisticated computer users are adept at burning CD's/DVD's. They may not be aware of longevity issues, however.
I've shot less than a dozen rolls of 135 since I bought my digital SLR. Yet I've made many large prints (8 x 12 and a few 10 x 15) from the digital images. And that is largely sufficient unto itself. OTOH, nothing projects like a well saturated chrome.
I've shot more 120 than 135 since then and made 1 large print (24 x 24) from that (to date). More to follow.
Cheers, Alan
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Bob Hickey - 25 Dec 2006 15:53 GMT > >From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints > was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Scott > So the point seems to be that the disagreements have little to do with film vs.digital. My local hatchet shop does a good job when given a little help. Drop off a roll of film and be prepared for orange kids and purple lawns. But add a CD for $10, go home and photoshop the keepers, put them on a floppy, and bring them back, and voila, not bad at all. The thing is: a 0.15ct. 4x5 is up to $20. Digital looks really good now when in truth, the shots are degraded to death and can't hold a candle to film done competently. Bob Hickey
Scott W - 25 Dec 2006 17:13 GMT > > >From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints > > was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > really good now when in truth, the shots are degraded to death and can't > hold a candle to film done competently. Bob Hickey When my wife and I were shooting film we did our own scanning and had even better control. In addition to not getting the WB right the labs I used would often blow the highlights. Scanning the film and having the digital files printed works a whole lot better.
But for the average shooter they are not going to go through this work, and not even getting their photos put on a CD. And for the more advanced shooters there are good DSLR, which are very hard to match with 35mm film.
Scott
Graham Fountain - 25 Dec 2006 22:11 GMT >>> >From the people I have dealt with just having them look at my prints >>> was enough for them to decide that they wanted to go digital, this [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > advanced shooters there are good DSLR, which are very hard to match > with 35mm film. I hope you don't think I'm totally anti-digital (it has it's uses and it is very very good at what it does), but at the same time I don't worship it. I use both film and digital at various times. Practically all commercial work I've done in the last 3 (maybe more) years has been digital simply due to the speed. For my family snapshots, I use digital almost exclusively too, and a digital P&S'er at that. I know that any DSLR or FSLR would do better than a digital P&S, but the P&S is good enough, and is small and compact. However when I want something with quality, black & white, or something that will be a "keeper", it goes onto film. As for resolution - the current crop of 10MP DSLRs win over 35mm, no question about it. But I can't put my finger on it, but film still looks better to my eye. Pretty much every digital camera I've seen (and sorry Canon owners, but Canon seem worse at it), tends to make people look plastic. On technicalities digital wins hands down, with the only argument from me being it's handling of highlights. Perhaps it is because it is less technically perfect, but I still prefer the look of a film print compared to a digital print (even when the film has been scanned before printing).
Being a part-time minilab manager, I'm finding that there are a whole new lot of issues when it comes to printing digital, and that we do more reprints for digital customers than we ever did for film customers (partially offset by the fact that we do more prints fullstop, that is something good about digital).
With film, colour balance is controlled by the machine and the operator. Most of my operators are pretty good at picking the colour balance and so we can get it pretty well spot on most times. We have regular customers, some of whom have complained about our selected colour balance in the past, and now we can compensate for them. For example some of them prefer a warmer cast on their prints, some prefer a cooler cast, and so now we get it "right" (iow, right according to their eye), most times. I even have some customers who shoot a grey card as their first frame - in those cases it is dead easy to set WB for the first frame and the rest of the roll is spot on.
With digital I find my most common cause of reprinting is incorrect cropping. It's a pain in the butt that almost all digicams shoot at 4:3 while the favourite print size is 6x4 at 3:2. With 35mm film, 6x4 was the same aspect ratio so cropping wasn't a major issue (even though we never printed the whole neg). Even with enlargements though, where cropping was also present from film, we have to do more reprints because of unexpected cropping. The simple reason was that from film, the lab operator made the cropping decision, whereas with digital the machine chops evenly unless the _customer_ manually crops differently. Because the lab operator no longer has any input into these types of controls, it isn't being controlled by someone with experience. Decisions related to cropping, colour balance etc are now in the hand of the customer, who in many cases doesn't understand the issues.
Our lab is set up to not do any auto-colour adjustments to digital images. The lab up the road is using the same frontier machine, but with different software to ours, and it does very agressive auto colour adjustment that can't be turned off. I get customers using our lab because they know it will print as they see it, and won't undo stuff they've done to the image. At the same time I have people who complain that our lab doesn't auto-correct - one customer had a wedding photo where the dress was a mid orange because the colour cast was so bad - the lab up the road printed it white, our lab printed it orange - until we manually adjusted the colours. The same customer also had outdoor shots that our lab printed correct, but the other lab printed with a strong magenta cast, obviously compensating for the green grass. Who is right? I think we are because we print the digital files the same as per the file. I'm sure the lab up the road thinks they are correct because they compensate for errors. Ideally we'd both have an option to print as-is or with auto-adjustments, but unfortunately the software doesn't do that, and if it did, it would be one more option to confuse customers who think that it is already too hard.
One thing I notice more in the digital age (and really I can't understand why), is that I see many more prints come through the lab with blur caused by movement of the camera. Is it because digital cameras tend to use longer shutter speeds to ensure correct exposure, whereas many film compacts would simply under-expose? is it because the smaller cameras are harder to hold? is it because people are shooting at arm-length? Is it because most digicams have bigger zooms than most film compacts? In theory, because of the faster lenses that most digi compacts have, motion blur should be less of an issue. But then I suppose most film compacts were used with ISO400 film, whereas digi's tend to use ISO 64-100 (and most low-end compacts look disgusting by the time ISO lifts to 400). Whatever the cause, it is a common cause of complaint about our printing, because the motion blur will show up on a 6x4, but because of the limited resolution of camera screens it's not visible on the camera.
In summary I don't think digital is automatically better than film simply because of the more control it offers in the printing stage. It is only better if the customer knows colour balance better than the lab operator. I would say comparing most of the people who post here vs most minilab operators I've encountered that there is no doubt that the posters here are smarter than most lab operators (even the ones I frequently disagree with). However I think even the worst lab operators I've encountered still have a better grasp of the basics of colour control than a lot of the mum & dad shooters.
> Scott Philip Homburg - 26 Dec 2006 10:02 GMT >With digital I find my most common cause of reprinting is incorrect >cropping. It's a pain in the butt that almost all digicams shoot at 4:3 >while the favourite print size is 6x4 at 3:2. With 35mm film, 6x4 was >the same aspect ratio so cropping wasn't a major issue (even though we >never printed the whole neg).
>Our lab is set up to not do any auto-colour adjustments to digital >images. >Ideally we'd both have an option to print >as-is or with auto-adjustments, but unfortunately the software doesn't >do that, and if it did, it would be one more option to confuse customers >who think that it is already too hard.
>But then I >suppose most film compacts were used with ISO400 film, whereas digi's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >6x4, but because of the limited resolution of camera screens it's not >visible on the camera.
>I would say comparing most of the people who post here vs most >minilab operators I've encountered that there is no doubt that the >posters here are smarter than most lab operators (even the ones I >frequently disagree with). I think this is something that just takes tinme to sort out. Do people want 3:2 or do they want 4:3. But paper sizes have to match if you to avoid problems.
The ISO problem probably is a result of people buying 10 Mpixel cameras (with tiny sensors) and then printing 2 Mpixel images on 4x6".
At some point there will have be different workflows for different customers ('professional', 'auto', and maybe manual correction for the larger sized prints).
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Pudentame - 23 Dec 2006 20:58 GMT >> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire >> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Scott My mom's in her mid 80s and she's coping with it.
jeremy - 23 Dec 2006 23:14 GMT >>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire >>> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > My mom's in her mid 80s and she's coping with it. WHY is everyone so obsessed with whether one woman should be "allowed" to use a film camera? So she didn't make the transition to digital. Why the attitude that she ought to endure punishment over it?
This is a film-centric newsgroup, and it has been since the beginning, yet there are posters that continue to knock film, and film users, as though film had no place.
The OP made a very valid point--that for some people, film was a better choice. And the usual suspects immediately flew out of the shadows and began attacking the woman that couldn't figure out how to properly use her expensive new digital camera! As though she had it coming, or something!
Sheesh!
Scott W - 24 Dec 2006 01:19 GMT > WHY is everyone so obsessed with whether one woman should be "allowed" to > use a film camera? So she didn't make the transition to digital. Why the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > began attacking the woman that couldn't figure out how to properly use her > expensive new digital camera! As though she had it coming, or something! I think most of us were of the attitude that she would be bright enough to learn how to use the camera, what yo think women aren't smart enough to use a digital camera?
She just got the camera ran into a problem and from this we are being told that she should just give up on digital and stick with film?
Scott
Al Denelsbeck - 24 Dec 2006 01:30 GMT >>>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and >>>> desire are two altogether different things. I have spent probably [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Sheesh! I call it the "Of course I made the right decision!" syndrome. Quite a few photographers feel the need to convince themselves by arguing everyone else who didn't do what they did. Insecurity at its best.
We got to see it before with the Canon/Nikon wars, and the Leica/Everybody wars. In their minds they're still on the playgrounds spewing about their dad beating up everyone else's.
Give them a cookie and send them outside to play.
- Al.
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Pudentame - 25 Dec 2006 00:25 GMT >>>> I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire >>>> are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > use a film camera? So she didn't make the transition to digital. Why the > attitude that she ought to endure punishment over it? I was only pointing out that age is not necessarily a barrier to using newer technology.
Michael Benveniste - 24 Dec 2006 04:35 GMT > I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire > are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 years [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > people in the 35-60 age group - probably because they have the time > available to invest in learning about technology products. Someone who is 35 today would have been 13 when the Macintosh was introduced. A fair number would have used Apple II's in grammar school, more would have used computers in high school, and still more would use PC's in the work place.
The difference between dropping off a roll of film at the local drugstore to be turned into 4x6" and dropping off a memory card to do the same isn't beyond most 35-60 year olds. But poorly trained or unscrupulous sales people will sell people equipment that's beyond their skill level, and well-meaning relatives will give people cameras without walking them through their use.
All that automation that appeared in film cameras was a product of that same digital age. You can get the same automation in digital cameras. More advanced models of each offer enough options to give the more experienced photographer more control over the process, but also more ways to spoil the shot. Your customer could have gotten the wrong film camera as easily as the wrong digital camera.
Had that customer bought too slow a film, or set the wrong ISO for the film, given black and white film to a newbie clerk at a minilab or simply left the lens cap on as was common in the 1950's and 60's, those shots would have been gone forever. Had she bought the wrong size film, she never would have gotten the shots in the first place. As it stands, she should eventually get the shots she took with the digital camera.
Yes, I've forgotten to reset the ISO setting. I've misloaded 35mm film, 127 film, 120 film, and sheet film. I've bought 620 film instead of 120, and 120 film instead of 35mm. I've had APS cartridges eat my negatives. I've had 35mm cartridges pop open when I dropped them. I've accidentally erased digital images. In every case, the problem wasn't with the camera, nor with the digital technology. Put the blame squarely on the nut behind the finder.
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Bob Hickey - 24 Dec 2006 13:57 GMT > I agree she probably has the capacity to learn. But capacity and desire > are two altogether different things. I have spent probably around 20 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > Scott Not sure when it happened, or when I noticed it, but at some point people stopped thinking: they had to learn something or do something or have something fixed. Just the thought became death to sales. Why go thru the hassle of raising your hand to hold a cell phone, when you can simply jam this plastic POS that looks like a giant blue question mark into your ear and babble away to your hearts content. If the blue one doesn't work, get a black one. If it only memorises 100 numbers, there's an upgrade coming. Study photography? what for? the cell phone is supposed to do that. Lab? They don't know where that is, just email 'em to some drug store and they mail 'em back. Cool. Life is good but it's gotta be boring as hell. Gotta be. Bob Hickey
Graham Fountain - 24 Dec 2006 15:20 GMT > Not sure when it happened, or when I noticed it, but at some point people > stopped thinking: they had to learn something or do something or have > something fixed. Spot on!! Learning has stopped becoming a process where people research, ponder, experiment, make mistakes, and learn from them. Research has become "tell me what to do", experimentation has disappeared, and mistakes have become something that can be used as an excuse to sue someone else. I'm not sure when people stopped thinking, but it probably happened at about the same time people stopped taking responsibility for their own actions.
Skip - 24 Dec 2006 17:39 GMT > Not sure when it happened, or when I noticed it, but at some point people > stopped thinking: they had to learn something or do something or have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > mail 'em back. Cool. Life is good but it's gotta be boring as hell. Gotta > be. Bob Hickey I think it came about when commonly used articles became either less expensive to repair than to replace, or too complex for the commoner to repair. Automobiles seem to have led that trend, it's cheaper to replace the injection system than to repair it, and the electronics involved are too complex for the guy in his garage to repair, it takes a specialist. Common appliances, too. It'll cost well over $100 to fix my DVD player, or I can just buy a new one for the same $100. Then our cars started doing a lot of our thinking for us, antilock brakes, stability control, reactive cruise control, we expect them to do everything, including point themselves in the correct direction. Our cameras got to the point that you could put the things on "Auto," and fire away, no thought for exposure, the camera will take care of it. Our appliances, same thing. Set your dryer for "Permanent Press," all is good. Set the iron for "Delicate," it won't scorch your shirt. So on and on.
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jeremy - 23 Dec 2006 01:07 GMT > had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went > into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a closer > look and found that all the photos were .raw not .jpg, and the consoles > can't handle raw format. She had no idea what raw was and no idea how they > got that way, and no idea how to use her computer to convert them. You should have given her this link:
http://www.williamsphotographic.com/digital.html
Annika1980 - 23 Dec 2006 03:45 GMT > You should have given her this link: > > http://www.williamsphotographic.com/digital.html What luddite wrote that garbage? That was about as fair and balanced as a FOX NEWS editorial.
Here's an example of the B.S.:
"Also, to print an 8x10 on your inkjet will cost you about $4, including paper and ink."
Dude must be using some expensive papers!
Colin_D - 23 Dec 2006 05:00 GMT >> You should have given her this link: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Dude must be using some expensive papers! The dude's out of date too - by five years. Copyright 2002. A helluva lotta water has flowed under the digital bridge since then. Why do people quote this ancient and irrelevant crap?
Colin D.
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Skip - 23 Dec 2006 20:35 GMT > You should have given her this link: > > http://www.williamsphotographic.com/digital.html That thing is four years out of date. A lot has changed since 2002.
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Doug Robbins - 23 Dec 2006 16:31 GMT I have little compassion for people who buy things they don't learn how to use. RTFM.
> had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went > into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a closer [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > out for her) how to install the software, transfer the photos and convert > them to jpg. Graham Fountain - 23 Dec 2006 20:09 GMT > I have little compassion for people who buy things they don't learn how to > use. > RTFM. RWFM? TJOS, TKR, TKS? Can anyone decipher? hint - this was in a Dr Dobb's journal about 15 years ago, and all centres around the meaning of F. I agree in part though, there are a lot of people who do buy stuff, don't read the manual, and then expect the retailer/friends/etc to solve all their problems for them. OTOH, there are a lot of people, and I'm sure this lady would be one of them, who would read the manual, and go "huh?".
Philip Homburg - 24 Dec 2006 11:53 GMT >OTOH, there are a lot of people, and I'm >sure this lady would be one of them, who would read the manual, and go >"huh?". The problem is that those people don't organize themselves and make sure that companies produce products for them. Of course that also means that they have to be willing to pay a premium for products have fewer features.
 Signature That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
Pudentame - 23 Dec 2006 20:57 GMT > had a lady come in wanting to print some photos yesterday. Her card went > into one of the consoles and came up with no photos found. I had a > closer look and found that all the photos were .raw not .jpg, and the > consoles can't handle raw format.
> so I agreed to have a look in photoshop and see if > I can convert them for her. Photoshop couldn't look at them either - [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > suggested she would have to use the software that came with the camera > to convert them from raw to jpg. Do you have the latest Photoshop Camera Raw? v3.6 added support for the following:
Canon EOS 400D (Rebel XTi/EOS Kiss Digital X)
Fuji FinePix S6000fd FinePix S9100/9600
Leica D-LUX 3 Digilux 3 V-LUX 1
Nikon D80
Olympus E400 SP-510 UZ
Panasonic DMC-LX2
Pentax K100D K110D
Samsung GX-1L
About the only DSLR's not supported by v3.6 are Pentax K10D (which can use DNG as its raw format), Nikon D40 or possibly one of the newer Digital Rebels.
Also, if you've got CS2 have you tried the CS3 Beta?
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